Review Round 13, 2023 - Hawthorn vs. Brisbane Lions

[M Malice]

Concussion is likely a concern for parents regarding all three contact sports here in Australia, and the AFL for obvious reasons is essentially outlawing the sling tackle, especially the holding the arms and slinging motion.

I have also seen a few players concussed or suffering facial fractures from a raised knee. Yes raising a knee, whilst jumping for a mark, to gain height and clear space has always been allowable, and provides for some spectacular marks, but i am not too keen on players standing under the ball and having a knee thrust into the back of their skull, but on the flip side, if raising a knee whilst jumping for a mark was eliminated is it taking too much away from the fabric of the game?

Yes, the grandsons worst concussion was from a terrible sling tackle.

The knees up in marking contests is a tricky one, my gut tells me it is an accepted risk when you decide to play the game.

 

[jjami15]

We're frauds tbh. The same problems year in and year out. At some point the players and the coaching group are going to realise change needs to be made. If they're happy winning regular season games and not making an impact in finals then they're failing themselves and the clubs members and fans.

Can't like this post enough. What he said!!

 

[Nathan Barley]

A bigger issue for us had been big bodied defensive mids which we solved

Also picked up a strong key forward and run off half back

We've slowly been building a stronger team

My biggest issue is the guys we've drafted after the McCluggage selection (bar academy picks)

We've been banking on Rayner and Bailey stepping up in the midfield and they're a long way off still. And then there's Berry and all the other wasted picks

 

[Viceregal]

Not sure, I plagiarized those stats off another poster on the main board.... at a guess I would say all 10 would be since we came good in 2019.

Went and had a look...

1 2022 PF Geelong
2 2022 SF Melbourne
3 2022 R20 Richmond
4 2022 R15 Melbourne
5 2020 R1 Hawks
6 2019 R23 Richmond
7 2019 R4 Essendon
8 2018 R4 Richmond
9 2017 R22 Melbourne
10 2017 R10 Collingwood

Not including those last two finals we played at the MCG 8 times in 6 years which I suspect is the lowest somehow ...

 

[StevoJenkins]

A bigger issue for us had been big bodied defensive mids which we solved

Also picked up a strong key forward and run off half back

We've slowly been building a stronger team

My biggest issue is the guys we've drafted after the McCluggage selection (bar academy picks)

We've been banking on Rayner and Bailey stepping up in the midfield and they're a long way off still. And then there's Berry and all the other wasted picks

Don't think JBerry has actually been that bad this season. His games, until the post Carlton games, had actually been really good.
The problem here is that we're playing Clug in the middle and Berry on the wing.

Should be Berry (doing a light tag) in the middle and Clug on the wing.

Also think Linc has been bagged a bit this season, despite being the most consistent in regard to pressure applied, out of the whole team.

 

[MSB ROYS]

Don't think JBerry has actually been that bad this season. His games, until the post Carlton games, had actually been really good.
The problem here is that we're playing Clug in the middle and Berry on the wing.

Should be Berry (doing a light tag) in the middle and Clug on the wing.

Also think Linc has been bagged a bit this season, despite being the most consistent in regard to pressure applied, out of the whole team.

Perfect chance to try this with McCluggage out with concussion this week.

 

[twhowler]

An incredibly disappointing loss. It makes it feel like the last 2 years - so promising until the bye then fall in a heap.

A few areas to dissect.

TACTICS - i spoke about how we were dominating inside 50s and struggling to win / lost to crows. It was disappointing that over 3 weeks we didn't seem to be able to respond to teams flooding back. Against the hawks it was forward handball and quick wide switches that again we had no answer to. You could tell early on the hawks were up to it. Barring the pies game we have been totally unable to respond in games yet again. It's plan A or bust.

STATISTICS - As has been noted we got SMASHED in the spread, uncontested possession 293-190. Agruably worse we WON clearances 47-27 and yet contested we LOST contested ball overall 137-124. So on the hunt, ball on the ground, we got slaughtered. We also lost possessions 426-324 and yet had MORE turnovers, 77-58. Think about how poor our disposal was to have significantly more turnovers with 100 fewer possession. And this against a VERY inexperienced Hawthorn side. And a young side that should have been ripe pre bye. Which brings me to...

BYE PREPARATION - we are now officially poor post byes and round 1. So what do we do about it? Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

48

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

came out and addressed it head on, said players needed to improve, changed they way they did the bye, training loads etc. We don't know if it was addressed but it certainly wasn't done publicly or spoken about.

COACHING / MOTIVATION - the thing about the weekend was not starting badly, looking lacklustre - that happens. it was the inability to turn it around at any point. Just slowly sliding to a loss. So why?
I can't imagine the Pies being so limp. They have supreme belief in their game plan and keeping spring and harassing and trying to turn it around. Do our players have the same belief on our gameplan / coaching?
Port? This year they know anyone could be dropped - look at Jonas. Lycett. Burton. They drop their captain because he has slowed down and struggling. Their players know if they don't put in anyone could be dropped, and if the team plays really well with a new player that players keeps their spot. For us the person replacing Rich or Zorko or Gunston knows they are just a seat-warmer. I thought Prior was poor Sunday, but he was excellent v Pies and still lost his spot. Why would that not affect his motivation?

PERSONNELL - play it again, Sam. Gunston - I mean if he plays this week Fagan has jumped the shark. Rich - not going any more when it's his turn. Was stark on the weekend. Berry - if he is not inside mid is he worth it? Ah Chee deserves a spot and always did. Fletcher might be worth a try. Fort or Lohmann for Gunston. Coleman i am on the fence - why is he not fit? Would only play him if he can run out a game, if not go back to the 2s and run run run.

POSITIONS - Bailey is not a mid. Play him HFF. Sort out the wings, we are dire there and too much chopping and changing.

Honestly that was flag done stuff. The hawks were $9 at half time. Free money.

 

[StevoJenkins]

Coleman i am on the fence - why is he not fit? Would only play him if he can run out a game, if not go back to the 2s and run run run.

In the post match presser, Fagan claimed Coleman was not in form. Said he didn't have the flexibility that Wilmott has (where he can play wing and back) and Rich was back in the team, so Coleman got the sub.

Should've played him instead of Rich, or give Carter Michael another go.

 

[bungalow_bill]

Bye makes a difference- Hawks coming off a massive comeback bid last week were battle hardened and carried that form into this game.

 

[twhowler]

In the post match presser, Fagan claimed Coleman was not in form. Said he didn't have the flexibility that Wilmott has (where he can play wing and back) and Rich was back in the team, so Coleman got the sub.

Should've played him instead of Rich, or give Carter Michael another go.

Thanks - couldn't bring myself to watch this one! As you allude to: Form - hardly a tick for Rich, Coleman been below par but better v Crows. Flexibility - Rich has absolutely zero.

It's frustrating watching the wet lettuce Fagan gets 'hit' with at pressers. So many rambling statements with 5 options for Fagan to answer however he wants.

Can you imagine some actual short sharp QUESTIONS:

Your side was coming off a bye, against a young side with about half as many games experience. That's a very poor performance isn't it?
Jack Gunston is significantly down on all of career statistics. At what point do you say recruiting him hasn't worked and give someone else a go.
Daniel Rich is also way down on average possessions and his kicking has dropped off. Is he starting to get exposed in the backline?
Port Adelaide dropped its captain. Is that the ruthlessness needed to be a premiership contender?
Hawthorn ran all over the lions with forward handball and switching to the wing. Did you have a plan B or just hope things turned around?
Your team has a problem post bye. Did you do anything differently this year to counter that?

 

[twhowler]

Bye makes a difference- Hawks coming off a massive comeback bid last week were battle hardened and carried that form into this game.

Battle-hardened? How on earth did Geelong come back from 2 byes in 2 weeks in the finals and wipe us off the park? We played a very young side before they got to have their bye, after they had an interstate trip. We should have been fresh and fired up. The fact we weren't shows it's same old for us this year, look a million bucks early but found out the longer the season goes.

 

[martinson]

Battle-hardened? How on earth did Geelong come back from 2 byes in 2 weeks in the finals and wipe us off the park? We played a very young side before they got to have their bye, after they had an interstate trip. We should have been fresh and fired up. The fact we weren't shows it's same old for us this year, look a million bucks early but found out the longer the season goes.

I think it's all been said but we were coming off an unexpected loss with a week off against a team near the bottom of the ladder on a good day on a nice ground.

So absolutely no excuses at all. Very disappointing loss from a coaching and playing perspective.

If that's not a kick up the backside that we needed nothing is.

Par for the course for Fages to start off his presser saying how good the opposition were when it was actually us that was poor which was more of a factor.

 

[Squizz89]

Yeah I think putting the loss down to simply "coming off the bye" would be a pretty long bow to draw. With all due respect to the Hawks, this wasn't Collingwood, Melbourne etc on the MCG. This was a match against the 16th based team, who's form has been so bad at different stages this year that they've been alleged to be deliberately tanking. It's a terrible, terrible loss whichever way you look at it for a number of reasons, not least it's probably cost us the chance of 2 games at home come finals time.

 

[Thomasno]

I think it's all been said but we were coming off an unexpected loss with a week off against a team near the bottom of the ladder on a good day on a nice ground.

So absolutely no excuses at all. Very disappointing loss from a coaching and playing perspective.

If that's not a kick up the backside that we needed nothing is.

Par for the course for Fages to start off his presser saying how good the opposition were when it was actually us that was poor which was more of a factor.

Don’t disagree with most of the criticisms, but a bit rough to say the hawks didn’t play well. They did, even after their abysmal start last week they looked decent against port. They’re a very young team so they’ll be inconsistent as hell, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they upset more teams going forward.

We did still play poorly, but even playing poorly we would’ve thrashed the hawks of 5-6 weeks ago.

 

[martinson]

Don’t disagree with most of the criticisms, but a bit rough to say the hawks didn’t play well. They did, even after their abysmal start last week they looked decent against port. They’re a very young team so they’ll be inconsistent as hell, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they upset more teams going forward.

We did still play poorly, but even playing poorly we would’ve thrashed the hawks of 5-6 weeks ago.

I thought they played well .

 

[p4p1]

Does anyone have the stats for meters covered, average speed etc? I'm not saying Berry did a lot on the weekend but our wingers are barely, if ever used and for the most part seem to be used to guard space.

 

[alscotoz2]

You don't think we made an impact in finals last year?

Not if they're not at home.

 

[Thomasno]

Aaaaaand Melbourne winning today means we’ve basically screwed our top 2 chances unless we win all games from here

 

[Thomasno]

Not if they're not at home.

We literally knocked out the then-reigning premiers at their home ground in a come from behind win

 

[alscotoz2]

We literally knocked out the then-reigning premiers at their home ground in a come from behind win

That's literally an outlier. No wonder Collingwood tried to get their home game against us switched to the G

 

[SizeMatters]

Does anyone have the stats for meters covered, average speed etc? I'm not saying Berry did a lot on the weekend but our wingers are barely, if ever used and for the most part seem to be used to guard space.

Our game style means we don’t use them. We are stoppage first team. Create a contest, win the contest and move ball forward in any means… mostly kicks up the ground. Create a stoppage. Rinse and repeat. We don’t use width much at all so wingers don’t have a heap of opportunity to contribute consistently. If we had more run from the backline and switched the ball more it would immediately help our game and it will open space and we become more unpredictable. We are very strong stoppage team so I’m perplexed as to why we don’t use that dominance to share the ball around and control the ball more.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Aaaaaand Melbourne winning today means we’ve basically screwed our top 2 chances unless we win all games from here

We don't deserve to be top 2 with how we play away. Will be lucky to be top 4

 

[BRAB]

We don't deserve to be top 2 with how we play away. Will be lucky to be top 4

Yeah agreed. Given we shit the bed against 16th away anything is possible with this group of players.

 

[martinson]

Mitchell's a shrewd operator. Coaches like he played ,effortless and clinical ,a bit dirty but never ever flustered.

On reflection they set themselves for this game against his old mentor. They did extensive homework on our gameplan and some of our players and zoned in on the weaknesses.

 

[Quested]

I think the only way to redeem ourselves and have any hope of achieving what we should is to win round 18 against the Dee's at the MCG. If that doesn't happen then I think it's going to be another wasted season where we fall short. If it happens then I will finally agree that it's Fagan's time to move on, along with Rich, Zorko and Gunston.