Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[Elixuh]

You needn't feel so defensive - this is the exact environment Fagan has lived in for....since before Twitter was a thing.

It is indeed why it is important - if every move Fagan has ever done, every recorded word and action is being used to seek justification for what is alleged, then isn't it equitable and fair to subject the other party to similar scrutiny?

I understand what you are fearful of and I acknowledge it is a by-product. But, there is a difference been relatable fact and irrelevant opinion in these matters, I'm sure you agree.

You are asking otherwise uninformed people to withhold judgement without knowing all the facts....when you won't in fact EVER know what some of those facts are.So, when is an appropriate time to assess, given that you have some omissions?

Hence, I feel this is in the public interest. We are passing some form of commentary over something that is alleged to have occurred recently.

If we want to stop the insidious rapture of racism, then WHENEVER such an allegation is made with public figures in a public forum, then EVERYONE is outed, simply as a means to achieve as close to absolute equity and visibility as possible. Or we continue to accept less than fulsome reporting and outcomes on issues of national concern.

My issue here is that by leaving any relevant details unwritten in this sort of scenario, it opens the way for any storied addition you wish to insert to justify your viewpoint. And with that comes accusations of agenda and influence, as we see ITT.

There should be no thought other than achieving broad tolerance towards every cultural group - if that isn't in the national interest, I don't know what is. There shouldn't be a hint of any agenda bar that.

Fewer assumptions will lead to better decisions.

We decry the AFL or other organisation for releasing reports without some redactions or withheld information.

And yet we appear to be satisfied in this scenario with otherwise relevant omissions.

How do you think disclosing the names of these people will allow us to 'know all the facts' so that we can pass 'judgement'. Personally, I believe vulnerable people who report serious allegations about conduct that has happened in settings like the workplace and which have caused them (for instance) psychological trauma should be afforded a level of public anonymity if that is what they choose. It does not prevent the allegations from being tested.

I will put it simply for you. If you knew the name of one of the people who has made an allegation in this matter right now, how would this assist you?

 

[DevRoboGun]

Appears the players are at their annual end of season party today based on Rayners Instagram. Can’t imagine how they are feeling and what the talk is. You’d think the majority would be hurting for fages, wouldn’t be surprised if the players come out publicly in his support at some point

 

[Mighty Lions]

How do you think disclosing the names of these people will allow us to 'know all the facts' so that we can pass 'judgement'. Personally, I believe vulnerable people who report serious allegations about conduct that has happened in settings like the workplace and which have caused them (for instance) psychological trauma should be afforded a level of public anonymity if that is what they choose. It does not prevent the allegations from being tested.

I will put it simply for you. If you knew the name of one of the people who has made an allegation in this matter right now, how would this assist you?

Vulnerability is a 2 way street.

 

[Brett C]

No. I didnt mention anything about Indigenous players. You did.

No you’re just being a smartass, you were absolutely implying that.

Might as well have called Shaun an Uncle Tom to be less obvious

 

[rye]

Holding up Yassmin Abdul-Magied is laughable. 99% of Australia has never heard of her and she’s without doubt up there with Lydia Thorpe as one of life’s big pieces of s**t

what?

 

[Mighty Lions]

Appears the players are at their annual end of season party today based on Rayners Instagram. Can’t imagine how they are feeling and what the talk is. You’d think the majority would be hurting for fages, wouldn’t be surprised if the players come out publicly in his support at some point

Think the players will keep to their selves as much as possible. They say anything and they will leave themselves open to criticisms from all over the place.

 

[Brett C]

what?

Where?

 

[martinson]

How do you think disclosing the names of these people will allow us to 'know all the facts' so that we can pass 'judgement'. Personally, I believe vulnerable people who report serious allegations about conduct which happened in settings like the workplace and which have caused them (for instance) psychological trauma should be afforded a level of public anonymity if that is what they choose. It does not prevent the allegations from being tested.

I will put it simply for you. If you knew the name of one of the people who has made an allegation in this matter right now, how would this assist you?

I don't see any sensible reason for releasing the names of the accusers at this point . That would create a media frenzy and be completely counter productive to what any internal inquiries are trying to achieve.

Of course if it becomes a full legal matter then suppression of the names becomes a lot more difficult. And we hope it can be resolved without that.

 

[Mayestro]

The indigenous have a very strong & powerful voice in the AFL and getting stronger every year. It's not as one sided as you elude to above.

Is it your opinion that Goodes was "hounded" out of the game because he was indigenous? Thats not my take on it.

Indigenous people do have increased representation, but representation does not protect them from a pile on if their identities were exposed.

Goodes was hounded out of the game because he was indigenous and he had the nerve to call out racism. “I’m not racist but I just don’t like the way he plays” was a fig leaf for racists for the most part.

 

[Jeremiah001]

No you’re just being a smartass, you were absolutely implying that.

Might as well have called Shaun an Uncle Tom to be less obvious

You know where the ignore button is. Use it.

 

[Military_man]

Most Clubs have their skeletons, even Carlton lol.

We are still paying for our mistakes . Been nearly 20 years and we are still suffering .


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[irel]

Take it from me you need to be a whole lot more charming to get this simple question answered by me.

You're avoiding now but whatever.

 

[AFLQLD]

No winners.

Rational and kind discussion has largely also been a loser as well. And changing that is the only win we can take away from this.

People are entitled to want support, protection and justice for the victims of what occurred as the principal focus. People are equally entitled to want proper prudent processes to be followed to ensure that justice is delivered fairly and consequences applied suitably to the appropriate people. People are also entitled to worry about the effect on their club going forward without being portrayed as uncaring about the victims. All of these things are valid concerns for people to think about and express. None are necessarily wrong even if they are sometimes clumsily expressed. People are just being people and doing the best they can with the tools they have.

None of the concerns people are expressing need be mutually exclusive. I am horrified that the report detailed so much pain and ongoing trauma for indigenous families. I hope the investigations are just and honest. I truly want improvement and genuine understanding to come from this. I worry about the effect of all this on our club, our team.

I wish we weren’t here. But we are. I have seen people on forums in the last 24 hours beat each other up in ways that ultimately take no one anywhere. It is a time for kindness and understanding towards others. Hopefully we are all going to be a little better after this.

Be kind, or what the hell is the point?

 

[Quested]

One thing to be mindful of, as I read through seeing a lot of people call out the review/report for not including Fagan/Clarke interviews.
The review itself may well have simply had the mandate of "collect feedback and thoughts from our current and past first nations players on their time at the club." If this was the scope of the review, there was no need to interview coaching staff etc in this situation. The fact that the review has then come across this information doesn't change the scope of the review. The review now completed, the information collated, and the next step of a thorough investigation ensues. The big issue here is how that review gets leaked before the AFL conducts an investigation and gives Fages et al. The chance to hear and respond to the allegations. Seriously if the AFL can have the Brownlow votes delivered by armoured guard, how could they not give this the due process it needed?

 

[knaf]

Think the players will keep to their selves as much as possible. They say anything and they will leave themselves open to criticisms from all over the place.

I was hoping some may contact Fagan privately. I wouldn’t expect that there would be any public discussion by the players, particularly at this point.

I also have a general concern for the playing group and how this might be affecting them.

 

[Elixuh]

Vulnerability is a 2 way street.

So we just want people to be hesitant or outright unwilling to come forward.

People are acting like the complainants have pushed this. They were the ones approached by Hawthorn as part of the review and (presumably) approached by the journo.

I think people can disagree with how it has come out or w/e, but arguing that there is some public interest in us knowing the names of the complainants is a weird argument to make. Especially when a formal investigation into the allegations is underway.

 

[Brett C]

Indigenous people do have increased representation, but representation does not protect them from a pile on if their identities were exposed.

Goodes was hounded out of the game because he was indigenous and he had the nerve to call out racism. “I’m not racist but I just don’t like the way he plays” was a fig leaf for racists for the most part.

Yes 10’s of thousands of banded together to be racists.

Was it racism that caused the booing of Zorko when we played Melbourne? What about the booing of Libba Snr whenever he played the Lions after clawing at McRae’s face?

Countless examples of players being booed because they’re not liked over the years.

 

[royboys4eva]

Call me loyal - call me naive - call me biased. But when Chris Fagan says he know's nothing about these claims - I believe him. That doesn't mean he isn't going to face consequences. I honestly feel for him right now. These are damning allegations.

My biggest concern is this will take months upon months and in the end regardless of the outcome the club will be forced to take action.

 

[Elixuh]

Yes 10’s of thousands of banded together to be racists.

Was it racism that caused the booing of Zorko when we played Melbourne? What about the booing of Libba Snr whenever he played the Lions after clawing at McRae’s face?

Countless examples of players being booed because they’re not liked over the years.

Your comparisons are extremely poor.

 

[Required]

How do you think disclosing the names of these people will allow us to 'know all the facts' so that we can pass 'judgement'. Personally, I believe vulnerable people who report serious allegations about conduct that has happened in settings like the workplace and which have caused them (for instance) psychological trauma should be afforded a level of public anonymity if that is what they choose. It does not prevent the allegations from being tested.

I will put it simply for you. If you knew the name of one of the people who has made an allegation in this matter right now, how would this assist you?

Well, if a complaint was made by a player that a coach had said about him; "hes an absolute moron, a dickead, disruptive in the group, dangerous to other players on the training paddock, drinks too much and should be sacked"; Would it help you come to a more accurate opinion if you knew;






...the complainant was ..Mark Jackson?
.

 

[Requiem]

Yes 10’s of thousands of banded together to be racists.

Was it racism that caused the booing of Zorko when we played Melbourne? What about the booing of Libba Snr whenever he played the Lions after clawing at McRae’s face?

Countless examples of players being booed because they’re not liked over the years.

Your example are a false equivalency, no one has been booed on the scale Adam Goodes was in the AFL, or for the same reasons.

Are you sure you want to die on this hill?

 

[Elixuh]

Well, if a complaint was made by a player that a coach had said about him; "hes an absolute moron, a dickead, disruptive in the group, dangerous to other players on the training paddock, drinks too much and should be sacked"; Would it help you come to a more accurate opinion if you knew;






...the complainant was ..Mark Jackson?
.

I don't have any idea what that means.

 

[knaf]

One thing to be mindful of, as I read through seeing a lot of people call out the review/report for not including Fagan/Clarke interviews.
The review itself may well have simply had the mandate of "collect feedback and thoughts from our current and past first nations players on their time at the club." If this was the scope of the review, there was no need to interview coaching staff etc in this situation. The fact that the review has then come across this information doesn't change the scope of the review. The review now completed, the information collated, and the next step of a thorough investigation ensues. The big issue here is how that review gets leaked before the AFL conducts an investigation and gives Fages et al. The chance to hear and respond to the allegations. Seriously if the AFL can have the Brownlow votes delivered by armoured guard, how could they not give this the due process it needed?

Exactly. I know nothing of how a journalist became aware of the report. However I am guessing that there maybe (rightly or wrongly) a view in part of the First Nation Community that the AFL and in fact the general public may not take First Nation issues seriously. (Poster will have different views on this. You can probably guess I have some sympathy for the Community view)

this report was not going to be shelved.

some collateral damage is going to occur, the original allegers, Fagan perhaps.

On a side note “Natural justice“ has it ever been given to First Nation people?

 

[davemc_lions]

this is horrible for both sides

you assume both us and North looking at plan B if things do not go well
Also could go into next year easily.
Feel sorry for Fagan he seems a very upfront guy from what I can tell, although be hard to escape the tar brush.
You think he probably do what is best for the club, which others will look at as a sign of guilt
Clarko from what you seen will probably fight and fight and North might get stuck

AFL probably allow both clubs if things go bad to look after the closing date

 

[martinson]

Your example are a false equivalency, no one has been booed on the scale Adam Goodes was in the AFL, or for the same reasons.

Are you sure you want to die on this hill?

Goodes played for over a decade without being booed . It only started after he pointed out the girl in the crowd.

I remember Carl Ditterich being constantly booed and I think the club at the time played a bit of a racist card saying it was his German heritage and we should get over the war.

But basically he just belted the opposition at a time when you could and was considered a really dirty, vicious player.

What the Krakoeur Brothers suffered from the crowd back in the day would be unimaginable today so we have made some progress.