Play Nice Hawthorn culture and Fagan

[dlanod]

This is going to be a very touchy subject.

There will be a very broad range of opinions about the correct way to handle this.

I'll remind everyone to post respectfully at this time - sniping at each other is not going to help.

Any continued pointless back and forth will get a day or more to cool off. If you want to avoid this fate, let it go.

 

[lioninthesand]

WOW.

You dont think he has been crucified unfairly???....

Not having a chance to defend himself.
Accused of something before an afl investigation comes out.
Forced to step down from his job.
Him & his family hounded by press 24 hours a day.
His reputation soiled now for the remainder of his career and life.

just disgusting. If it were me, I would be finding it very difficult not to come out swinging.

If he is cleared his reputation will fine. If you actually go and sample public opinion on social media etc - I think it’s 90% supportive of him and suspicion is being aimed at the alleged victims.

Everyone I have spoken to, even those who’d you’d call a ‘social justice warrior’, have said they find it hard to believe and won’t jump to conclusions until the report comes out.

I think the court of public opinion as it’s stands now, is heavily in his favour.

Four families have coproberated each other’s stories, you can’t expect just a blatant emobargo, attack on them from all parties in defense of your guy, which seems to be what you’re chasing. There are some who are going to be cautious denying the alleged victims claims, we can’t go in with a sledge hammer either way.

It’s funny the ‘freedom of speech at all costs’ crew, now want media and conversational embargo’s - because it’s suits their current agenda to defend the accused.

It’s not how public life and allegations of this nature works.

It’s a horrible situation for Fages to be in while the investigation happens, but - if he’s guilty it’ll cost him his career, if he is cleared he will be inline for a defamation payout and Australia will clear his name absolutely.

It’s public life, it comes with big pay and big risks, this situation is one of them.

If he is innocent of misconduct, which I hope he will be, he will be fine and will go onto coach us with a clear slate, there may be a small sect who will believe the alleged victims at all costs, but I doubt the majority will care about their opinions anyway.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

There is no chance there has been any further interviews with those who feel that they were pressured to abort, or were separated by the Hawks. Fagan and Clarkson have no doubt strenously denied it, and I can understand why Wellington is inclined to believe him, but to my read of the abc article there are at least 3 separate people alleging Fagan was present for some of these incidents, and the AFL investigation has not commenced.

My last comment on this point but I think its a bit unlikely that there's been any big development that has changed anything.

I would be shocked if there wasn’t significantly more context and information on this subject available behind the scenes. It would be inappropriate to speculate on what that information might be, but I am entirely sure that Gil would know so much more than any of us (and more than the ABC too) on this matter right now.

There is just nothing to be gained by the club publicly supporting Fages in the way they have tonight without context and information beyond what is publicly available. Wellington is far too professional an operator to do anything like that.

 

[Mighty Lions]

There is no chance there has been any further interviews with those who feel that they were pressured to abort, or were separated by the Hawks. Fagan and Clarkson have no doubt strenously denied it, and I can understand why Wellington is inclined to believe him, but to my read of the abc article there are at least 3 separate people alleging Fagan was present for some of these incidents, and the AFL investigation has not commenced.

My last comment on this point but I think its a bit unlikely that there's been any big development that has changed anything.

Unlikely but something has changed 100%.

Just as unlikely for Geelong to beat Swannies by 81 pts in the Grand Final.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Ultimately I suspect the investigation will reveal instances of a lack of cultural understanding/sensitivity rather than any suggestion of an overtly racist system of Indigenous players being singled out and mistreated.

Indigenous ideas of kinship and family connection are very profound and also intrinsically linked to country in a way that western culture simply doesn’t mirror.

In light of that, it could be legitimately argued that encouraging an indigenous person to disconnect from their community in order to further their career is culturally more insensitive than banning Luke Hodge from going back to Colac and getting on the pizzas and beers with his old mates - even if on paper they seem like similar situations.

I think this disconnect is what will be revealed. Not an overt policy of singling out Indigenous players but more of a failing to be understanding of the cultural and welfare sensitivities.

If so, it doesn’t need to be the end of careers, and could be a learning moment for the whole industry.

 

[Mighty Lions]

If he is cleared his reputation will fine. If you actually go and sample public opinion on social media etc - I think it’s 90% supportive of him and suspicion is being aimed at the alleged victims.

Everyone I have spoken to, even those who’d you’d call a ‘social justice warrior’, have said they find it hard to believe and won’t jump to conclusions until the report comes out.

I think the court of public opinion as it’s stands now, is heavily in his favour.

Four families have coproberated each other’s stories, you can’t expect just a blatant emobargo, attack on them from all parties in defense of your guy, which seems to be what you’re chasing. There are some who are going to be cautious denying the victims claims, we can’t go in with a sledge hammer either way.

It’s funny the ‘freedom of speech at all costs’ crew, now want media and conversational embargo’s - because it’s suits their current agenda to defend the accused.

It’s not how public life and allegations of this nature works.

It’s a horrible situation for Fages to be in while the investigation happens, but - if he’s guilty it’ll cost him his career, if he is cleared he will be inline for a defamation payout and Australia will clear his name absolutely.

It’s public life, it comes with big pay and big risks, this situation is one of them.

If he is innocent of misconduct, which I hope he will be, he will be fine and will go onto coach us with a clear slate, there may be a small sect who will believe the alleged victims at all costs, but I doubt the majority will care about their opinions anyway.

No it wont.

 

[Mighty Lions]

I thought the same until Wellington’s statement. Can’t see the club making such an emphatic public defence of Fages today unless both A) they want him to continue as coach if the allegations are unproven and B) he wants to continue as coach too.

Certainly seems the will of the playing group is for him to continue too judging on Caro’s statement this morning. But I realise you probably know much more than me on that front.

It's not Wellington's call,,,,, its Chris's.

 

[dlanod]

No it wont.

I think you're underestimating the ability of the football industry to move on from a given incident as if it never happened, especially since we have literally dozens of cases where exactly that has happened.

 

[Squizz89]

No it wont.

You seem to be pretty strong on this being the end for Fagan either way ML. Do you believe he’s considering his future in the role regardless of findings?

 

[Tom14]

I think you're underestimating the ability of the football industry to move on from a given incident as if it never happened, especially since we have literally dozens of cases where exactly that has happened.

On a totally unrelated note, who is going to sit on the footy classified panel with Eddie and Ross Lyon now that Caro is scaling back her involvement?

 

[Big Sauce 21]

I'd be no different than anyone having their say on this matter but if the name I've heard has told this story, then I'm fully backing Chris over this other individual.

Frustrates me that the club has been dragged into it all. We have a big Month coming up club wise. Would like to think the club is still switched on and ready to keep the show rolling.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

It's not Wellington's call,,,,, its Chris's.

You think he will step away as a result of this? I would have thought he may feel compelled to redeem his legacy and finish the job he has started. I also feel like that would be the will of the club and the playing group. But maybe it has taken too much of a toll on him for that.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Ultimately I suspect the investigation will reveal instances of a lack of cultural understanding/sensitivity rather than any suggestion of an overtly racist system of Indigenous players being singled out and mistreated.

Indigenous ideas of kinship and family connection are very profound and also intrinsically linked to country in a way that western culture simply doesn’t mirror.

In light of that, it could be legitimately argued that encouraging an indigenous person to disconnect from their community in order to further their career is culturally more insensitive than banning Luke Hodge from going back to Colac and getting on the pizzas and beers with his old mates - even if on paper they seem like similar situations.

I think this disconnect is what will be revealed. Not an overt policy of singling out Indigenous players but more of a failing to be understanding of the cultural and welfare sensitivities.

If so, it doesn’t need to be the end of careers, and could be a learning moment for the whole industry.

So you are generalising in saying an indigenous's family connection is more sensitive to someone else non-indigenous?

If so, I find that a little offensive and kinda racist in itself. I think every family connection is unique and not determined by color or race.

 

[M Malice]

Ultimately I suspect the investigation will reveal instances of a lack of cultural understanding/sensitivity rather than any suggestion of an overtly racist system of Indigenous players being singled out and mistreated.

Indigenous ideas of kinship and family connection are very profound and also intrinsically linked to country in a way that western culture simply doesn’t mirror.

In light of that, it could be legitimately argued that encouraging an indigenous person to disconnect from their community in order to further their career is culturally more insensitive than banning Luke Hodge from going back to Colac and getting on the pizzas and beers with his old mates - even if on paper they seem like similar situations.

I think this disconnect is what will be revealed. Not an overt policy of singling out Indigenous players but more of a failing to be understanding of the cultural and welfare sensitivities.

If so, it doesn’t need to be the end of careers, and could be a learning moment for the whole industry.

100% agree with the bolded, lionraven posted an all time great post on this the other day, longish post but definitely worth the read if anyone missed it >

I have only read the ABC report. I am not Indigenous but I have south asian heritage and some of the issues raised I can easily relate to in the report. In my experience White/Anglo Aussies are not often intentionally racist in a mean-spirited way but their cultural insularity means they are often inadvertently bigotted due to their cultural ignorance and biases giving them large blindspots to racism.

In the ABC report, Clarkson encourages one Indigenous player to be more involved in drinking/team social activities. I have no doubt, this recommendation came from good intentions without malice, as an attempt to better integrate the player into the team culture. However, it exposes the clear blindspot Clarkson and the AFL have in terms of accommodating cultures outside the typical White/Anglo Aussie culture. Anglo Aussies have such a proud (and often insidiously harmful) drinking culture and its associated 'mateship'. Team building activities centre around Mad Mondays/going clubbing etc. If you are from a culture where drinking isn't the norm, these 'team building' activities are the absolute worst. Unless you participate you are seen as antisocial, not one of the mates/boys, not a team player etc. You inadvertently become ostracised and this has impacts on your professional and personal life.

I personally faced this in medicine. When you are trying to get into surgical training, a large aspect of getting in is finding a suitable mentor and developing networks/relationships with other senior clinicians. In orthopedics a lot of this is done through after work drinks and drinking events after conferences. I personally wasn't able to participate in such networking and progress. I have seen others struggle as well. They were mainly minorities like myself or women (hence the gender disparity where the majority of medical students are female but the disproportionate majority of surgeons are still male). Its disheartening to see equally skilled clinicians with equally impressive resumes miss out year after year because they aren't able to network as well as others. I ended up changing tracks into another field in medicine.

I also noted this when playing social cricket. Cricket is a religion to south asians. Growing up, there were so many people of south asian heritage playing after school cricket/in junior cricket clubs. In university there were still plenty but the numbers started to thin out. I was working out bush and tried to join in at their social cricket club. Its so difficult to connect to these clubs as every event is centered around heavy drinking. If you are not drinking heavily you are not seen as a team player and cant get an in on the social circle. Hence you see many south asians not continuing on in cricket as adults. You can see this issue play out overseas in the recent scandals in Yorkshire cricket where some of the south asian UK cricketers felt ostracised by the drinking culture in that county's cricket club and the subsequent accusations of racism from some former players.

I imagine things would be a lot worse for a young Indigenous male who is reliant on footy for their future career. Imagine coming from rural bush towns where the intergenerational trauma of colonisation, stolen generations and disposession of land and culture manifests in the form of familial drinking problems and subsequent domestic violence. You grow up in such a town where the elders have banned alcohol entirely. You end up going into the draft system, get drafted by a major Melbourne club in the middle of a dynasty and one of the greatest coaches in this generation comes up to you and says you are not being a team player because it is considered antisocial for you to keep to yourself when your teammates are having drinks. Its a small comment for a coach to make but obviously a big deal for the player. For the player you have this genius coach challenging your culturual experiences and the moral guidance you would have recieved from your elders/leaders and at stake is your future career and potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars and the lifestyle your family could enjoy. Im not surprised it struck a cord with the player.

Having said that, I don't think Clarkson meant anything racist by his remarks there. In his eyes he was just making a small suggestion to help a young player develop into his role in the team. He knows the importance of team connection/bond building. Clarkson's whole threepeat team was based around being selfless team players. He wouldnt have understood the huge cultural context he is missing and why such a small comment could be seen as racist and very impactful by that player. He wouldn't have understood the moral dilhemma this Indigenous player was facing and the subsequent stress/anxiety/distress caused. For that player that day was a huge crisis but for Clarkson it was probably just another Tuesday. He would have said plenty of gentle suggestions to all sorts of players. How could he be aware this was a huge deal for this one Indigenous player?

Hence its a huge failing of the Hawks football club to not have full time Indigenous liaison officers who could have helped the likes of Clarkson/Fagan etc bridge the cultural communication gap with their Indigenous players. How many millions was this club making from the Tasmanian government and their sponsors? They couldnt find 80k for one person to help these players?

 

[Mighty Lions]

You think he will step away as a result of this? I would have thought he may feel compelled to redeem his legacy and finish the job he has started. I also feel like that would be the will of the club and the playing group. But maybe it has taken too much of a toll on him for that.

Just spare a thought for what he & his family are going through now and then ask yourself....do I want to open myself up to this kind of thing happening again?
Would you like to be Chris Fagan or his family right now dealing with this?

 

[T Rick]

Yeah if we don't have any additional information I think it could have waited. I would imagine everyone that matters knows how fantastic Chris has been for us over the past 6 years and that he is one of the major reasons why our club is in a good position these days.

The headlines at the moment just read "Lions Back Fagan". I can see how that could backfire in two months if it comes out Fagan was complicit in all of this.

For the life of me I cannot understand how showing support for Chris Fagan and his family at this time could backfire. The Club is supporting the person they know and respect...he deserves nothing less.

 

[lioninthesand]

No it wont.

You are really strong on this angle. You started out with a really calm and reasonable take on this, which I took as a welcome surprise. But you really quickly escalated now you are taking to it with a baseball bat. Feels like you operating entirely on tribal football and political lines as opposed to just sitting back and assessing the situation with with a calm, realistic eye over it.

I get it though, footy is very tribal and the defense of your people is an innate urge.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

Just spare a thought for what he & his family are going through now and then ask yourself....do I want to open myself up to this kind of thing happening again?
Would you like to be Chris Fagan or his family right now dealing with this?

Absolutely not - and would be entirely fair if he walked away as a result. I don’t think anybody would begrudge him for that, especially when coaching itself seemed to be taking a toll on him more and more this season as it was.

I guess I just feel like the overwhelming support of the players & the club (as has seemingly happened) may lead him to giving it one more year to see if he can lead this group to a flag at long last. But maybe that’s too idealistic of me.

 

[M Malice]

On a totally unrelated note, who is going to sit on the footy classified panel with Eddie and Ross Lyon now that Caro is scaling back her involvement?

On a serious note it would be fantastic if they got a former Indigenous player on board eg. Shaun Burgoyne, Allen Christensen, Chris Johnson, Gavin Wanganeen.

 

[Lions time]

I'm sorry, I can't see how there could have been that much more information provided to the club since Wednesday. Partiuclarly when I think some of what was reported by the ABC was separate and beyond that in the review. Clarko and Fagan's denials are relevant of course.

The natural impulse for most of us is to back in Fagan due to his excellent job bringing us out of a shocking position, and I get that. I suspect that it is 'loyalty' as Mighty Lions put it that is motivating this.

The information they are getting is coming from one of the most honest, forthright men in the AFL…..Chris Fagan.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Tom14]

The information they are getting is coming from one of the most honest, forthright men in the AFL…..Chris Fagan.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Take Fages out of it - lets say his name wasn't included in the ABC report.

Do you think that something like this could have happened at Hawthorn, given everything else that has been reported, including by the Riolis earlier this year?

 

[Mighty Lions]

Absolutely not - and would be entirely fair if he walked away as a result. I don’t think anybody would begrudge him for that, especially when coaching itself seemed to be taking a toll on him more and more this season as it was.

I guess I just feel like the overwhelming support of the players & the club (as has seemingly happened) may lead him to giving it one more year to see if he can lead this group to a flag at long last. But maybe that’s too idealistic of me.

How about if you see your Wife, Children, Mother in distress over a situation you have been accused of and see the pain they are in? Would you then think maybe a little differently? "Family Comes First" is what we all preach & practise.

 

[T Rick]

Just spare a thought for what he & his family are going through now and then ask yourself....do I want to open myself up to this kind of thing happening again?
Would you like to be Chris Fagan or his family right now dealing with this?

I can only imagine the pain they must be suffering - it must be overwhelming. I hope they all come out of this okay...

 

[Section 5]

People are looking into the chairmans statement as a significent change of circumstances but i doubt it is

I would agree if he said something along the lines of
"after throughly reviewing the Hawthorn document and going over the alledged incidents with Chris Fagan we are confident etc etc"

But nothing of this nature is mentioned

 

[T Rick]

Take Fages out of it - lets say his name wasn't included in the ABC report.

Do you think that something like this could have happened at Hawthorn, given everything else that has been reported, including by the Riolis earlier this year?

Rioli's issues were driven by Kennet weren't they - if so, nothing would surprise me in terms of his behaviour towards anyone.

 

[Mighty Lions]

People are looking into the chairmans statement as a significent change of circumstances but i doubt it is

I would agree if he said something along the lines of
"after throughly reviewing the Hawthorn document and going over the alledged incidents with Chris Fagan we are confident etc etc"

But nothing of this nature is mentioned

Mate, he cant say that. It's now a legal matter.