NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[FlyHigh18]

I think a different term should be used - culturally offensive for example. Racist is just far too loaded a word and turns it into a fight with the person desperate to defend themselves rather than considering and looking to change their actions.

But I also think it's good that there has been a shift in focus towards the experiencer.

I agree with you that it isn't such an issue in the everyday world. It's when things get analysed and categorised and given the label in the broader community who are not connected to the issue and use a different definition of racist more connected to images of the kkk.

I’ve been wanting to articulate what you posted for a while now but just preferred to avoid whatever this thread has become.

We have no right to judge what the accusers have gone through in their lives and how they’ve been affected, how the coaches treated them may be racism in their point of view.

But it’s such a loaded word for something that is far better defined in public as culturally insensitive. Which isn’t a crime but requires some form of acknowledgement.

There is a particular poster who keeps repeating ‘it’s racist if they think it is’. Sure, everybody has a right to interpret an interaction however they please based off their own experiences. But they doesn’t mean you get push it as a fact socially. In this case mainly driven by an article and the media.

All we’ve done in doing so is created another set of victims.

 

[the big lebowski]

Spent a bit of one-on-one time with Eddie Betts in a Yarning Circle. I can tell the following because he touched on it in his speech he gave before this. Such a wise young man who has a vision for what we need to do close the gap. He spoke about the banana and how for 95% of the players a banana would have meant nothing. We spoke about how 95% could never understand the ripped jeans comment being racist.
Eddie spoke about how much racism still exists behind AFL walls and AFL clubs need to their leaders to walk in front of Aboriginal people and not beside. Exactly what Mitchell did last week, he walked in front of the players by calling out racism. We were both highly impressed by that. An inspirational man.

Kinda like when clarko called out racism when Liam Ryan was racially abused online in 2019

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/eagles-afl-stars-join-chorus-of-condemnation-against-racist-trolling-of-liam-ryan/news-story/f41ddb84e1ab6b992b0b53ac1306bdac?amp

 

[phantom13]

that 90% of the world would kill for and yet they choose to waste it.

 

[phantom13]

View attachment 2011899

This is a joke by the way, everyone chill.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Kinda like when clarko called out racism when Liam Ryan was racially abused online in 2019

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/eagles-afl-stars-join-chorus-of-condemnation-against-racist-trolling-of-liam-ryan/news-story/f41ddb84e1ab6b992b0b53ac1306bdac?amp

And that’s all you took from it. Never willing to listen, never willing to learn.

 

[phantom13]

Spent a bit of one-on-one time with Eddie Betts in a Yarning Circle. I can tell the following because he touched on it in his speech he gave before this. Such a wise young man who has a vision for what we need to do close the gap. He spoke about the banana and how for 95% of the players a banana would have meant nothing. We spoke about how 95% could never understand the ripped jeans comment being racist.
Eddie spoke about how much racism still exists behind AFL walls and AFL clubs need to their leaders to walk in front of Aboriginal people and not beside. Exactly what Mitchell did last week, he walked in front of the players by calling out racism. We were both highly impressed by that. An inspirational man.

I’ve been lucky enough to hear Eddie speak a few times and he’s very measured and very considered in his approach. I think ultimately he understands that the best way to facilitate change is to be quite soft in language and approach to white people and ultimately he’s right but to be so patient and so considerate after what he must have been through for his whole life is incredible.

Truly an inspiration.

 

[yodellinhank]

I’ve been wanting to articulate what you posted for a while now but just preferred to avoid whatever this thread has become.

We have no right to judge what the accusers have gone through in their lives and how they’ve been affected, how the coaches treated them may be racism in their point of view.

But it’s such a loaded word for something that is far better defined in public as culturally insensitive. Which isn’t a crime but requires some form of acknowledgement.

There is a particular poster who keeps repeating ‘it’s racist if they think it is’. Sure, everybody has a right to interpret an interaction however they please based off their own experiences. But they doesn’t mean you get push it as a fact socially. In this case mainly driven by an article and the media.

All we’ve done in doing so is created another set of victims.

My issue with the accused is Fagan's reaction, which was deny out of hand that he acted in a culturally insensitive way. Rather, the reaction should have been that it was never his intention to cause offence and seek to understand what the issue they had with his actions was.

Added to that was then a refusal to listen to the complainants followed by threats against them to try to stop them taking it further. That's when you definitely have to start considering racism is what's going on, because it becomes more than just insensitivity when you dismiss it and double down.

 

[the big lebowski]

And that’s all you took from it. Never willing to listen, never willing to learn.

I read the whole post mate, but I thought Eddie’s observations about how jokingly giving someone a banana in relation to contextual racism was a little obvious.

And given I’ve never made any sort of fun to any sort of person for being black I assumed I’d get little benefit from discussing it further.

You on the other hand, given your infatuation with Mitchell for sticking up for a racially vilified player on his team, must be over the moon clarko publicly came to Liam Ryan’s defence in 2019.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

My issue with the accused is Fagan's reaction, which was deny out of hand that he acted in a culturally insensitive way. Rather, the reaction should have been that it was never his intention to cause offence and seek to understand what the issue they had with his actions was.

Added to that was then a refusal to listen to the complainants followed by threats against them to try to stop them taking it further. That's when you definitely have to start considering racism is what's going on, because it becomes more than just insensitivity when you dismiss it and double down.

But that's where the way the allegations were published by the ABC made any possibility of mediation in this way impossible.

Those sensational allegations / headlines about the coerced abortion, seperation of families, etc painted the coaches as nothing less than card carrying members of the KKK (yes I know that's my interpretation but it is a common interpretation).

The way the ABC (Russell Jackson) pursued this story made this current outcome inevitable. You can't mediate away those kinds of claims, the moment the story broke there was no hope of finding a middle ground.

The coaches have already had their reputations blown away, their is nothing in it for them to go to mediation but they can gain a lot by going to court.

 

[yodellinhank]

But that's where the way the allegations were published by the ABC made any possibility of mediation in this way impossible.

Those sensational allegations / headlines about the coerced abortion, seperation of families, etc painted the coaches as nothing less than card carrying members of the KKK (yes I know that's my interpretation but it is a common interpretation).

The way the ABC (Russell Jackson) pursued this story made this current outcome inevitable. You can't mediate away those kinds of claims, the moment the story broke there was no hope of finding a middle ground.

The coaches have already had their reputations blown away, their is nothing in it for them to go to mediation but they can gain a lot by going to court.

Coerced abortion just seems abhorrent. The separation from family and community doesn't seem like it was done with racist intentions. It wouldn't be rare for clubs to try to remove people from players' lives who they feel could have a negative impact. A player with drug strikes for example. It is entirely plausible the coaches could have done this with no racist intent.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

Coerced abortion just seems abhorrent. The separation from family and community doesn't seem like it was done with racist intentions. It wouldn't be rare for clubs to try to remove people from players' lives who they feel could have a negative impact. A player with drug strikes for example. It is entirely plausible the coaches could have done this with no racist intent.

Yes, even the coerced abortion i have heard rumours it was due to the pregnancy in question being high risk to the mother so even that possibly could have been done with good intentions (I have no idea if that's true).

But none of this context was given in the ABC story, it went both barrels point blank at the coaches.

So as I said before why would the coaches agree to mediation?

If they have been contacted by the players independently and had issues about cultural insensitivity raised with them in private then yes I agree they would be churlish to turn mediation down in that case.

But the moment that story was aired their reputations were destroyed and also any attempt by them to go to mediation would be seen as some sort of admission that they were guilty of racism which no one in their right mind would agree to.

 

[FlyHigh18]

My issue with the accused is Fagan's reaction, which was deny out of hand that he acted in a culturally insensitive way. Rather, the reaction should have been that it was never his intention to cause offence and seek to understand what the issue they had with his actions was.

Added to that was then a refusal to listen to the complainants followed by threats against them to try to stop them taking it further. That's when you definitely have to start considering racism is what's going on, because it becomes more than just insensitivity when you dismiss it and double down.

The article made it impossible for anyone to acknowledge let alone apologise.

After already being painted as a racist and publicly shamed, an apology for something else would also be painted with the same brush.

 

[Mibie]

So with two reports from Justice John Middleton and Gordon Legal indicating that there was "no bias whatsoever" that a subculture of racism existed at the Hawks between 2008 to 2015 surely this thread can be closed???

 

[hawkman]

Just playing Monopoly together has many benefits

When banker, it teaches you when it is the right time to steal and when you are likely to get caught

 

[Gavin Excell]

When banker, it teaches you when it is the right time to steal and when you are likely to get caught

And just like in real life, you only get soft punishment for white collar crime

 

[dropbear101]

tbh, I don't know all the details. therefore I don't have any defined opinions.

in saying that i do have suspicions.
leigh mathews is very close with fagan. i remember reading that they have weekly dinners. And he clearly found what ever happened with fagan as ridiculous.
alastair clarkson is an a#sehole. so I suspect he did something. does it equal racism. who knows. one thing i think perhaps bears some thinking isn't if he had racist intentions. but if he did something (that he'd been doing with others), and knew it could be constructed as racist then did it anyway (like a proper psychopath).

finally, i think the abc should face repercussions for this. I think it caused what may have been a resolvable thing (maybe not for clarkson). to become a story that destroyed lives. I know this jackson fellow is well-liked and respected. but hes slimy. very slimy.

 

[Chief]

The article made it impossible for anyone to acknowledge let alone apologise.

Clarkson acknowledged but said it didn't go down as reported.

 

[western royboy]

tbh, I don't know all the details. therefore I don't have any defined opinions.



finally, i think the abc should face repercussions for this. I think it caused what may have been a resolvable thing (maybe not for clarkson). to become a story that destroyed lives. I know this jackson fellow is well-liked and respected. but hes slimy. very slimy.

Your own words

 

[420]

Debunked tag on the thread please?

 

[SAweagle]

You should provide the feedback on our website. Very few people actually provide suggestion feedback it’s mostly complaints. So when we get some suggestions there is actually a not zero chance it gets actioned.

maybe have a higher than not zero % of actioning feedback and you'll get less complaints.

 

[M Malice]

 

[The Gulden Child]

Genuine question, is there a source for that last paragraph?

I’ve worked quite a bit with Victoria (and NSW) DJCS and DoH and neither would classify that as custodial so it seems odd they’d be classified as a death on custody.

I’d imagine that death would be included on broader auxiliary figures statistically but not the final death in custody figure.

Not having a go, genuinely curious.

Sorry just noticed this and not sure if I replied. Under Tasmania Police Policy. Even pulling someone over for an RBT, or to issue and infringement is a deprivation of liberty (i.e. assault - albeit lawful, temporary and brief ). I am familiar with a motorist having a heart attack while being spoken to on the side of the road for their manner of driving.

It was investigated by Ethical Standards.

My post was a while ago now but this highlights the considerations Police must be aware of and are subjected to when dealing with the public.

 

[phantom13]

Sorry just noticed this and not sure if I replied. Under Tasmania Police Policy. Even pulling someone over for an RBT, or to issue and infringement is a deprivation of liberty (i.e. assault - albeit lawful, temporary and brief ). I am familiar with a motorist having a heart attack while being spoken to on the side of the road for their manner of driving.

It was investigated by Ethical Standards.

My post was a while ago now but this highlights the considerations Police must be aware of and are subjected to when dealing with the public.

It was a while ago so im a little sketchy on details but from memory you said that in that instance (heart attack when being pulled over) would be considered a death in custody. I would fully expect that any death whilst in the presence of police even without being detained would be investigated but im very confident that in Vic and NSW that wouldnt be considered a death in custody.

No question the police need to be conscious of their conduct and engagement with the public but unless there was some level of duress from the officers theres no way thats counting statistically.

 

[Chief]

Sorry just noticed this and not sure if I replied. Under Tasmania Police Policy. Even pulling someone over for an RBT, or to issue and infringement is a deprivation of liberty (i.e. assault - albeit lawful, temporary and brief ).

Just for people who might mis-read that thinking the assault definition is Tasmanian policy, it is pretty much the same in any jurisdiction.

Any touch is an assault, but then you look at the lawfulness of that assault.

 

[HairyO]

I said this from the start in regards to the racism thing - that Clarkson just had to own it and apologise.

I assume youd throw away a career, legacy and millions of dollars admitting guilt over something you didnt do.

To be the bigger, racist, person.