NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Smoocher]

Providing statistical data to disprove a commonly accepted myth is not trivialising anything. I’m sorry you can’t accept data that disproves what you want to believe.

I’ll let the personal attack pass.

Be well.

Well said.



Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Can I suggest that the real difference in what we're saying is language.

Racist is an incredible powerful word that conjures up images of the KKK and all manner of hideous injustice.

It's use has been expanded to tap into the horror we attach to it. It's now used to include things outside of beliefs of innate superiority. It's now used to include things that will disadvantage a particular culture, even if unintended. I'd be happy for a different word to be used to describe this, as using the term racism creates a heap of misunderstanding. And frankly, the way it's currently being used regarding "systemic racism" will eventually strip the word of it's impact. And the concept of racial hatred should have a serious impact that can be summed up in one term. But for now it will continue to be used, as the word currently just has so much power.

Agree 100%. Calling someone a racist comes across as heavily as calling someone evil. It’s generally not helpful.

In reality, we all have racist beliefs and act racially to some extent.

I think to call someone a racist means that they have to have had bad intentions against someone due to their race. I don’t believe this describes the intentions of the coaches, even if the worst scenario turns out to be true.

I do believe their judgements were informed by racial prejudices, and that this combined with their controlling natures, likely led to unsafe outcomes (assuming the essence of the stories is true).

 

[Smoocher]

Are you just imagining stuff in your head? None of what you have written here has happened.

Join the dots and you have your answer.

Doesn't take a fake journalist to know what the truth is.

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

 

[travelli]

One of the great ladies I have ever met. Spend a lot of time with her and her hubby Ken on the Daly River. Her Granddaughters lived with us for a few years in Melbourne. Due to my situation from the past she is my Aboriginal Mum. (even though there is minimal age difference).

Wow Yolngu, that's awesome. I've never met her, but I remember having a meeting about deep listening in my old job, and I find that her reflection is something I keep coming back to. It explains something to me that I'm still processing.

 

[Maddo11]

Join the dots and you have your answer.

Doesn't take a fake journalist to know what the truth is.

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

Alternatively you can bypass the journalist all together and just read the Egan report at the that's linked at the top of each page.

But then you don't have a scape goat to blame this whole thing on.

So transparent

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Some pretty grim observations by the complainants' lawyer, which were also sadly very predictable:

First Nations families no guarantee to participate in Hawthorn review, lawyer says

The lawyer representing a First Nations family who allege mistreatment by Hawthorn, says their "traumatised" clients may not participate in the AFL's independent investigation.

www.abc.net.au

It’s just so ingrained in their DNA that I am not even sure they understand what they are doing.

Setting an arbitrary timeline, congratulating the accused while announcing the inquiry, noting the accused will be back at work soon, emphasising natural justice (felt a bit like saying white lives matter - yes of course white lives matter, just like natural justice matters, but you generally don’t have someone emphasising natural justice unless they are clearly empathising more with the accused than the alleged victims - otherwise the notion of natural justice is just taken for granted. He could have said the report would reflect the honest beliefs of the people running the review, but he didn’t need to say that as of course everyone knows this to be true).

It all makes me sad

 

[Ricketz]

I don't know why you are so easily sucked into the "journalism" red herring.

Because their end game is to diminish the credibility of the story and by association the credibility of the people who are making the allegations.

I think it is entirely sad that they play this game, and I don't think they should be left to spread their bile unchallenged.

 

[Ricketz]

Join the dots and you have your answer.

Doesn't take a fake journalist to know what the truth is.

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

Join the dots.

Ok. You're racist.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Wow Yolngu, that's awesome. I've never met her, but I remember having a meeting about deep listening in my old job, and I find that her reflection is something I keep coming back to. It explains something to me that I'm still processing.

'DADIRRI'

 

[Ricketz]

Jackson is an emotion driven Twitter journalist. His journalistic forefathers would be rolling around in their crypts

No, like I have previously posted - and others have noted - he has won the highest awards in this country and the state of Victoria for his journalism.

What he says on twitter has nothing to do with the article he wrote.

Why are you trying to slur his reputation? What is your real motivation? Be honest, be clear, be upfront.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Jackson is an emotion driven Twitter journalist. His journalistic forefathers would be rolling around in their crypts

So you respond with another unfounded personal grievance? Self awareness doesn’t appear to be your strong suit.

 

[Maddo11]

It’s just so ingrained in their DNA that I am not even sure they understand what they are doing.

Setting an arbitrary timeline, congratulating the accused while announcing the inquiry, noting the accused will be back at work soon, emphasising natural justice (felt a bit like saying white lives matter - yes of course white lives matter, just like natural justice matters, but you generally don’t have someone emphasising natural justice unless they are clearly empathising more with the accused than the alleged victims - otherwise the notion of natural justice is just taken for granted. He could have said the report would reflect the honest beliefs of the people running the review, but he didn’t need to say that as of course everyone knows this to be true).

It all makes me sad

Typical AFL tripe. A day late and a buck short

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Typical AFL tripe. A day late and a buck short

I think Gil thinks he is being clever.

If he gets the Olympics gig, I reckon this swings right around before the Olympics arrives and he gets turfed unceremoniously with worldwide attention.

Society is only moving in one direction and his record on race will look less and less defensible as time goes by.

 

[1970crow]

Or maybe it means they were more careful or not a lot of other assistants were in the loop.

Or there are more guilty parties skulking around the clubs.

or maybe toxic ex-employees/partners grinding an axe. Lots of scenarios where these guys aren’t quite as heinous as the untested allegations suggest. Or they could be worse.

 

[1970crow]

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts.

• Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.
• The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
• Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).
• It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

You’re talking to brick walls there. They have beliefs learned from a single unit at uni and facts cannot sway them. On our board I quoted similar stats and one of these types posted pre royal commission into aboriginal deaths in custody stats in an attempt to discredit modern figures.

 

[1970crow]

Why?

Learn something that’s real.

 

[Pure_Ownage]

No you didn't. You think you did, but you just complained about stuff you have no visibility of.

To be fair you have no visibility on it either so your response lacks real credibility.

 

[1970crow]

No, not at all. I also noticed you prior and subsequently saying it wasn't a racism problem. The evidence clearly shows it is.

No it’s not. Far from it actually.

 

[Ricketz]

Learn something that’s real.

Why do you have to be so vague? Just say what you mean mate. It's not hard.

 

[Ricketz]

To be fair you have no visibility on it either so your response lacks real credibility.

I'm not the one making claims about it PO. I also haven't claimed credibility, but if you can't see the problem that I was referring to you are not as astute as I thought you were.

 

[Ricketz]

No it’s not. Far from it actually.

That's not what the Queensland, Northern Territory and West Australian police forces found.

But I guess you know better than them?

 

[Pure_Ownage]

I'm not the one making claims about it PO. I also haven't claimed credibility, but if you can't see the problem that I was referring to you are not as astute as I thought you were.

I wasnt referring to the overall problem (which i agree is an absolute issue) i was referring to your attitude-2 separate issues. Your post certainly has the tone of you trying to claim credibility thats certainly how i read it. Youre entitled to do that but it doesnt make it necessary or sensible. The reality is none of us have the factual visibility on the article required to do that.

 

[1970crow]

Okay?

How about you address the factually incorrect and disgusting take you made below:

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are disproportionately represented in Australian prison populations. In 2016, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people constituted just 2% of the Australian adult population but comprised more than one quarter (27%) of the national adult prison population." From the ALRC.

The rate that aboriginal people come into contact with the criminal justice system is unquestionably where the problem lies. You need to ask why that is. I can tell you that in the NT, the vast majority of aboriginal’s incarcerated for violent events were perpetrated against other aboriginal people. If you’re arguing for traditional punishment, then that’s worth discussing the pros and cons. But you can’t simply ignore the greater rate of criminal behaviour among that portion of society.

Comparing based on colour is lazy and flawed anyway. White or not, there are strong consistencies across the incarcerated population. Left school early, low IQ, low socioeconomic upbringing, substance abuse are all commonalities across the total population. Until you start looking at and discussing the root causes, you’re hindering progression.

 

[Ricketz]

I wasnt referring to the overall problem (which i agree is an absolute issue) i was referring to your attitude-2 separate issues. Your post certainly has the tone of you trying to claim credibility thats certainly how i read it. Youre entitled to do that but it doesnt make it necessary or sensible. The reality is none of us have the factual visibility on the article required to do that.

Again, you are conflating two separate issues. I am criticising the ad hom attacks on the author of the article. I have not claimed to know what was researched.

Unlike the person I was responding to, I backed up my criticism with factual evidence. That is not claiming credibility.

I have said that such unfounded attacks on the person and the story serve to artificially discredit the story, and the people who were involved. That sort of thing is unacceptable.

Whether you hold those standards or not is up to you.

 

[Ricketz]

The rate that aboriginal people come into contact with the criminal justice system is unquestionably where the problem lies. You need to ask why that is. I can tell you that in the NT, the vast majority of aboriginal’s incarcerated for violent events were perpetrated against other aboriginal people. If you’re arguing for traditional punishment, then that’s worth discussing the pros and cons. But you can’t simply ignore the greater rate of criminal behaviour among that portion of society.

Comparing based on colour is lazy and flawed anyway. White or not, there are strong consistencies across the incarcerated population. Left school early, low IQ, low socioeconomic upbringing, substance abuse are all commonalities across the total population. Until you start looking at and discussing the root causes, you’re hindering progression.

Why do they leave school early, why do they have a lower IQ, why do they have substance abuse problems?

And like I said, the Kumanjayi Walker inquest has clearly uncovered systemic racism in the police force, the NT Attorney General and Justice Department also identified it in their NT Aboriginal Justice Agreement Implementation Plan last year, saying:

"At every consultation to inform the development of the Agreement, participants identified systemic racism as a factor contributing to the high levels of disadvantage and the over-representation of Aboriginal people in the justice system."

What do you think you know that the experts, community leaders and legal authorities don't?