NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[the big lebowski]

Why do they leave school early, why do they have a lower IQ, why do they have substance abuse problems?

And like I said, the Kumanjayi Walker inquest has clearly uncovered systemic racism in the police force, the NT Attorney General and Justice Department also identified it in their NT Aboriginal Justice Agreement Implementation Plan last year, saying:

"At every consultation to inform the development of the Agreement, participants identified systemic racism as a factor contributing to the high levels of disadvantage and the over-representation of Aboriginal people in the justice system."

What do you think you know that the experts, community leaders and legal authorities don't?

Please take this as a serious, sincere question, as that’s what it is.

Given we seem to all agree that crime is at a very high level amongst indigenous communities

And that disadvantage is the primary reason for this (as it is throughout the world where poverty, low levels of education, substance abuse and family dynamics all contribute to the issue).

As someone that appears to know a bit about this, what do you think the answers are to improving these important and sad issues?

As in practical, specific changes/programs/strategies etc.

 

[Alite]

Race! RACE. Does not exist in the Human species .., in terms of genetics

A person with blue eyes is as genetically different to a person with brown eyes …. as a person with dark skin is genetically different to a person with light skin….

Race is a concept designed by people who want to subjugate the masses to create fear and sow hate.
When obvious skin tone or other accessible physical attributes are not available, other branding methods are used.

Race DOES NOT EXIST. This is an Immutable genetic fact!

Different Cultures exists and are the bedrock of old knowledge. Multi-Culture is everything that is good, IMO. Homogenisation of all culture is aweful.

I believe a person who has a gene of someone who was Aboriginal, but lives a cultural life like most people in Australia, has no claim to Aboriginality.

I may have a distant relative in the past who is aboriginal. Would that make me aboriginal? Definitely not. Why?

Because I have no part in the culture of the aboriginal people.


Retaining the Culture of the people of Australia is critically important. This is what matters.

 

[South of the Yarra]

You’re talking to brick walls there. They have beliefs learned from a single unit at uni and facts cannot sway them. On our board I quoted similar stats and one of these types posted pre royal commission into aboriginal deaths in custody stats in an attempt to discredit modern figures.

I wonder what the unit I did was called. Please enlighten me where you learnt your incredible knowledge of Aboriginal incarceration from? Please provide the stats on the beatings, physical torment, emotional abuse and the ridicule that still takes place with Aboriginal people in prison. You have no idea about Aboriginal people and what it is like to be imprisoned in some states. Let’s provide statistics on the beatings before prison.

 

[South of the Yarra]

For those interested in Aboriginal imprisonment watch from about the 36 minute mark. Actually take the time to watch it all and listen, think and learn. Warning some footage may be disturbing.

 

[mcnulty]

So they may not participate because they are feeling “rushed“ and “crushed” by a process they accelerated and made public by going to the media?

 

[Laphroaig]

"Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are disproportionately represented in Australian prison populations. In 2016, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people constituted just 2% of the Australian adult population but comprised more than one quarter (27%) of the national adult prison population." From the ALRC.

No shit Sherlock.

I don't know how you've manged to miss me banging on exactly that disparity for 24 hours; highlighting it is where we have to work from.

The difference is that I've known it for 30 years and you've known it for 30 min and triumphantly quote a source I gave you.

 

[Ricketz]

Race! RACE. Does not exist in the Human species .., in terms of genetics

A person with blue eyes is as genetically different to a person with brown eyes …. as a person with dark skin is genetically different to a person to a person with light skin….

Race is a concept is designed by people who want to subjugate the masses to create fear and so hate.
When obvious skin tone or other accessible physical attributes are not available, other branding methods are used.

Race DOES NOT EXIST. This is an Immutable genetic fact!

Different Cultures exists and are the bedrock of old knowledge. Multi-Culture is everything that is good, IMO. Homogenisation of all culture is aweful.

I believe a person who has a gene of someone who was Aboriginal, but lives a cultural life like most people in Australia, has no claim to Aboriginality.

I may have a distant relative in the past who is aboriginal. Would that make me aboriginal? Definitely not. Why?

Because I have no part in the culture of the aboriginal people.


Retaining the Culture of the people of Australia is critically important. This is what matters.

This is a fallacy. Race is not defined by genetics - it is a social construct. You are using the genetic straw man when no-one uses race that way.

As a social construct race refers to a group of people that share socially defined characteristics. As such, concepts like race relations, or racial discrimination are very important to address.

It is not ancestry, which you seem to think it is - that is ethnicity.

 

[Ricketz]

So they may not participate because they are feeling “rushed“ and “crushed” by a process they accelerated and made public by going to the media?

The old take it or leave it, huh?

My way or the highway?

Of course sensitive issues need to be dealt with carefully. The reason they took it elsewhere is because they didn't trust the original process, and for good reason it seems.

But sure, make excuses as to why their claims should be dismissed.

 

[Ricketz]

No s**t Sherlock.

I don't know how you've manged to miss me banging on exactly that disparity for 24 hours; highlighting it is where we have to work from.

The difference is that I've known it for 30 years and you've known it for 30 min and triumphantly quote a source I gave you.

It's the reasoning you are using that is the problem, and you know it.

As demonstrated by your use of the virtue signalling deflection again.

Who needs enemies when they have friends like you helping, hey?

 

[mcnulty]

The old take it or leave it, huh?

My way or the highway?

Of course sensitive issues need to be dealt with carefully. The reason they took it elsewhere is because they didn't trust the original process, and for good reason it seems.

But sure, make excuses as to why their claims should be dismissed.

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

 

[Maddo11]

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

Lol, if the AFL had its way with picking the umpire the only thing the AFL would be doing is finding a suitable rug to sweep the whole thing under. It's no wonder the former players are hesitant to engage.

The fact that Maguire kept his job for so long, that Kennett is still hanging around like a bad smell, that they didn't try and stop the Goodes situation has repeatedly shown the AFL brass don't give a **** about real action on racist behaviour.

Even their most recent statement thanks Clarko and Fagan and mentions they'll be back coaching soon, like the outcome is already decided.

 

[mcnulty]

Lol, if the AFL

Ok why don’t you outline for me the issues you have with the ToR, especially given the AFL had guaranteed the panel complete independence.

 

[Ricketz]

You’re not making any sense again. The AFL appear to have bent over backwards to make this “sensitive” even keeping the offer of remediation on the the table. They don’t get to choose the umpire.

I don’t want anyones claims “dismissed”. That’s the whole point. Let’s hear what everyone has to say. If they refuse to participate…we’ll that says a lot.

I am making sense. You are not.

The AFL have not bent over backwards. They have done what they should have done a long time ago. Racism in the league has been a problem for a long time.

Whether they choose to participate or not says a lot. About the trust they have in the process, about the stress it would put on their lives and mental health, about their opinion of the terms of reference.

But it says nothing at all about the accuracy of the claims.

 

[Ricketz]

Ok why don’t you outline for me the issues you have with the ToR, especially given the AFL had guaranteed the panel complete independence.

The terms of reference were only released yesterday and you are passing judgement before 7am the next day because the players involved haven't made a decision yet.

Jesus f*cking Christ.

 

[Laphroaig]

It is an extremely complex problem that cannot be easily summarised in one post, and I am no expert. Nor can they be solved overnight - but one of the first steps is to accept the role that society has in creating these conditions. For instance, recognising the stated "reasons" above that indigenous people commit crimes as stressors and working to eliminate them, rather than just using them as an excuse.

Social, economic, judicial, health and educational barriers to engagement with broader Australian society need to be broken down - and I won't pretend I am across all of the effective policies that would help.

It may surprise you to learn that I could have written that as a summary of my own views. The match is near exact. Including the end part about who the hell knows what the "how" is.

I'll take ownership of the poor clarity of my comment that incarceration rates are not a race issue. In terms of how the conditions that foster a tendency to end up in the big house have been created - yes. This country has never got anywhere near a functional cultural interface and right now we seem to be getting further away.

One of the reasons we are getting further away is the reaction in certain quarters to start yelling abuse at any suggestion that the factors that create crime rates in communities are now embedded in those communities.

I don't agree with portions of the "how" you go on to list. Unsurprising. It's going to be a stretch to find any two people who do agree. Complex barely expresses it. I do strongly believe that any work towards a solution must initially be heavily weighted to "bottom up" measures. Working on top dpwn solutions is a demonstrated failure.

Might be a good place to leave it given the subject at the head of the page is something else. Happy to DISCUSS outside the thread with anyone, so long as it is civil.

 

[Ricketz]

For those interested in Aboriginal imprisonment watch from about the 36 minute nark. Actually take the time to watch it all and listen, think and learn. Warning some footage may be disturbing.

The entire video is well worth a watch. Uncomfortable, shameful and harrowing.

 

[mcnulty]

I am making sense. You are not.

The AFL have not bent over backwards. They have done what they should have done a long time ago. Racism in the league has been a problem for a long time.

Whether they choose to participate or not says a lot. About the trust they have in the process, about the stress it would put on their lives and mental health, about their opinion of the terms of reference.

But it says nothing at all about the accuracy of the claims.

They should have been aware (or made aware by a responsible journalist) that after they went public something very much like this would ensue. It seems now a real shame they only sought legal council after the going public. Now their poor lawyer is trying to clean up the mess.

 

[Ricketz]

Lol, people were passing judgement a lot quicker than that after Rusty’s article.

Why would you think that justifies your comments now?

 

[Maddo11]

They should have been aware (or made aware by a responsible journalist) that after they went public something very much like this would ensue. It seems now a real shame they only sought legal council after the going public. Now their poor lawyer is trying to clean up the mess.

Ah yes, the real victim here

The lawyers

 

[mcnulty]

The terms of reference were only released yesterday and you are passing judgement before 7am the next day because the players involved haven't made a decision yet.

Jesus f*cking Christ.

I clearly said IF they choose not to participate. You're struggling mate.

 

[Ricketz]

They should have been aware (or made aware by a responsible journalist) that after they went public something very much like this would ensue. It seems now a real shame they only sought legal council after the going public. Now their poor lawyer is trying to clean up the mess.

Of course they would be aware. Aware that it doesn't have to be done through the lens of the AFL's preferred terms of reference.

An accused abuser doesn't get to tell a potential victim when, where, or how they can seek redress.

 

[Ricketz]

I clearly said IF they choose not to participate. You're struggling mate.

I'm not struggling at all. I'm saying your pre-judgement is unfounded and wrong.

 

[mcnulty]

An accused abuser doesn't get to tell a potential victim when, where, or how they can seek redress.

That’s not at all what’s happening…

 

[Ricketz]

That’s not at all what’s happening…

You seem to know a lot about what is happening. Tells us what's happening then.

 

[mcnulty]

You seem to know a lot about what is happening. Tells us what's happening then.

You made the assertion, and a thoroughly ridiculous one at that, that “accused abuser doesn't get to tell a potential victim when, where, or how they can seek redress”. That’s clearly not happening. If you want to know what is happening, go ahead and read yesterdays announcement, how it’s constituted and it’s TOR.