NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[nobbyiscool]

As articulated above, they don't know who the players are and whether they'd even agree to meet them.

It's also suicide in the court of public opinion, as everyone would take it as an admittance to all the allegations that have been levelled against them. They'd be signing their own death warrant.

In an ideal world I fully agree with you, but there's just no way it plays out that way given the nature/publicity surrounding these events.

I think it's really interesting you say that. I guess I approach Clarkson and Fagan's responses to this as 1) someone who works in comms, and 2) someone who thinks that footy really, really loves to forgive.

My belief that you can apologise your way of it - people apologise their way out of being "cancelled" all the time even outside of footy - relies on my belief that people in AFL, be it fans, media, clubs, and even AFL House really want to give you every opportunity to be a great redemption story.

So I disagree with you, I don't think it's public opinion suicide at all - on the contrary, you become an opportunity for redemption.

It's the only possible reason that Ben Cousins, Wayne Carey, Brendan Fevola et al get 1000 chances.

(Also, I think there's zero chance that Clarkson and Fagan don't know who any of them are. They 100% would know at least a few of them based on their interactions with them and based on the stories that the players told.)

 

[Gralin]

they are not mutually exclusive.

there is a universe where clarkson and the club did the wrong thing - and it was still wrong of the journalist to publish the article - given the effect it would have on the victims.

can you make any concession that this might be possible?

they interviewed the people they wrote about in the story

this isn't the ABC going and pulling stuff from the report and publishing it without the families they are writing about being involved

stop making shit up to shift the blame for this

 

[mcnulty]

The players didn't make the allegations public. They were approached by the people doing the report for Hawthorn. By all reports they didn't even want to be apart of it originally, but thought better about sharing their experiences. The ABC made it public.

Is that what happened? Or did the ABC approach the players separately from Hawthorn report?

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Is that what happened? Or did the ABC approach the players separately from Hawthorn report?

The ABC/Rusty seemed to be reporting on what was in the Hawthorn report.

I am not aware of any articles where the ABC/Rusty had direct communication with the players who made allegations within the report.

What does it matter anyway?

 

[Masotiger]

It's been reported today that the families are reluctant to speak with the AFL. They've already been silenced unless the AFL investigative panel accept the allegations as reported by the ABC and in the Hawthorn report - which can't really happen, it goes against the principles of natural justice. So by silencing the aggrieved people you are eventually exonerated because they can't investigate anything. It's a shitty way to conduct business - but it works, which is why people do it.

Sadly I think both Clarkson and Fagan have backed themselves into corners by denying any wrongdoing - they've now set themselves on an adversarial path with the players and they themselves have probably established some Terms of Reference for the investigation that otherwise wouldn't have formed part of it.

As someone who works in comms and PR, had I been working with either of them the messaging I would've been arguing really strong for is along the lines of "I was shocked and saddened to read the allegations made against HFC, staff and myself... I was unaware of the accusations at the time and have only learned of them today... the scope of the HFC report did not allow for the allegations to be put to me or for me to respond... I now commit to reflecting on my behaviour to try and understand these accusations... I would welcome the opportunity to discuss with any player, family member, or representative to understand specific allegations so I can understand and learn from those... While I don't consider myself the same man that I was 10 years ago, I will work alongside the AFL investigation with my priority being that I continue learning as a man, a father and a coach."

Leave it open ended, commit to learning, leave an opportunity for players to contact you if they're comfortable, and most important create a footing that might just allow me to keep my job while allowing the players to feel as though they've gotten some justice. (While also using a few media buzzwords to get the usual suspects onside from the start while denying I was doing it.)

So, in other words, you have said nothing. And, consequently an inquiry Yes Minister would be proud of commences.

I would say:

I am saddened to hear the allegations made against me. I have been involved with hundreds of young men in my time as a player and coach over many years, many of them of indigenous background, some of whom have gone on to become champions of the game. I have dealt with each of them respectfully and do not recall any specific incident that would lead to these allegations. If my actions or words have adversely impacted on anyone I have had dealings with in the past, I would welcome the individuals involved to reach out and discuss their concerns with me.

OR

Unfortunately I can confirm the allegations made against me are true. I have made a substantial error of judgement and as a consequence I have no option but to apologies unreservedly for the hurt I have caused the individuals concerned and the greater indigenous community and resign.

Either own you mistakes, or defend yourself unashamedly.

 

[mcnulty]

The ABC/Rusty seemed to be reporting on what was in the Hawthorn report.

I am not aware of any articles where the ABC/Rusty had direct communication with the players who made allegations within the report.

What does it matter anyway?

It matters because you claimed the players didn’t make the allegations public. I was under the impression they spoke to the ABC. Again, happy to be corrected.

 

[Gralin]

The ABC/Rusty seemed to be reporting on what was in the Hawthorn report.

I am not aware of any articles where the ABC/Rusty had direct communication with the players who made allegations within the report.

What does it matter anyway?

did you read the article?
seems not currently

 

[Masotiger]

what the hell?

The players didn't make the allegations public. They were approached by the people doing the report for Hawthorn. By all reports they didn't even want to be apart of it originally, but thought better about sharing their experiences. The ABC made it public.

I mean have a go at the ABC if you want but calling players ball less because the hawthorn report didn't put their name too it? for all you know it was a hawthorn decision not to name them.

Jog on. Absolute crap view from you.

Ok, so who's making the allegations?

If serious allegations were being made against you would you not want to know WHO was making them?

Who's agenda was front and centre of the ABC's decision?

 

[Gralin]

Ok, so who's making the allegations?

If serious allegations were being made against you would you not want to know WHO was making them?

Who's agenda was front and centre of the ABC's decision?

again maybe read the article

 

[Handsome.B.Wonderful]

Anyone know if Phil Egan spoke to a mix of Hawks players during his review or only Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people’s?

21 players in total.

First Nations people which includes Maori people as well as Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

did you read the article?
seems not currently

View attachment 1519409

well i didn't recall it but i still do t think it matters.

I dont think the players are in the wrong for waiting to remain anonymous.

 

[Handsome.B.Wonderful]

Pretty sure it's been stated many times that it was a reviews of past and current indigenous players at the Hawthorn footy club.

Past and current First Nations people, which includes Maori people as well as Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people.

 

[jenny61_99]

Past and current First Nations people, which includes Maori people as well as Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander people.

Weren't aware of any Maori players!

 

[Gralin]

well i didn't recall it but i still do t think it matters.

I dont think the players are in the wrong for waiting to remain anonymous.

no i have no issue with the anonymous part I'm saying its in the article multiple times that they were interviewed, if you can't remember don't guess

 

[HirdsTheWord]

no i have no issue with the anonymous part I'm saying its in the article multiple times that they were interviewed, if you can't remember don't guess

i didn't guess. I said i was not aware. i didn't say it didn't happen

settle down mate.

 

[gouki88]

again maybe read the article

View attachment 1519410

Have said it before, but I am continually astonished by the audacity of some in this thread to come in firing without having either a) read the article or b) a clue.

 

[freofc1994]

I think all clubs should probably do this, sadly I cant see this being a 1 club issue.

The clubs want to control all aspects of their players lives, they'll claim that they don't but anything that could bring unwanted media attention to them they'll want to curb immediately.

 

[Forward Press]

Ok, so who's making the allegations?

If serious allegations were being made against you would you not want to know WHO was making them?

Who's agenda was front and centre of the ABC's decision?

The accused being made aware of the individuals involved =/= making public the names of those individuals

Clarkson, Fagan and Burt are indeed entitled to know the specific people making those allegations so they are afforded natural justice and procedural fairness etc as they are at risk of losing their jobs and reputation. We, however, are not.

 

[seysearles]

The media seems eerily quiet about this affair since Friday. They went hard early and have since fallen rather silent. Racism stories sell papers. I find it very telling that they’ve eased up.

 

[Forward Press]

The media seems eerily quiet about this affair since Friday. They went hard early and have since fallen rather silent. Racism stories sell papers. I find it very telling that they’ve eased up.

There's nothing new to report and there was some pretty important match on the Saturday.

Jesus Christ on a stick.

 

[seysearles]

There's nothing new to report and there was some pretty important match on the Saturday.

Jesus Christ on a stick.

Watch this space

 

[gouki88]

The media seems eerily quiet about this affair since Friday. They went hard early and have since fallen rather silent. Racism stories sell papers. I find it very telling that they’ve eased up.

What else is there to report on? There've been a couple of other things going on in footy the last few days, namely the Grand Final & player movement stories.

This ridiculous angle that it's some media beat-up (by the ABC...) in order to generate clicks is legitimately outrageous. Beyond ludicrous, actually. Racism stories sell papers? Guess it mustn't happen then!

I get that you feel some personal involvement because it's the club you barrack for, but you're paraphrasing many of the lines racist apologists / defenders use, knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[seysearles]

What else is there to report on? There've been a couple of other things going on in footy the last few days, namely the Grand Final & player movement stories.

This ridiculous angle that it's some media beat-up (by the ABC...) in order to generate clicks is legitimately outrageous. Beyond ludicrous, actually. Racism stories sell papers? Guess it mustn't happen then!

I get that you feel some personal involvement because it's the club you barrack for, but you're paraphrasing many of the lines racist apologists / defenders use, knowingly or unknowingly.

Perhaps we are all numbed to your racist stick

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yer I’m going to my lawyer straight away.

But why? What's the outcome you want?

Keep your job? Clear your name? Sue someone? Keep yourself out of jail? Ensure you get paid out?

I'm not sure a lawyer can help with the first two. In fact, I reckon that although lawyering up would be neccessary for the last three - it would be very detrimental to the first two.

Lawyering up doesn't work in an industry as public as the AFL. It's an optics caper. PR is more important law. Essendon found this out pretty quickly. No amount of Org Charts and legal speak was enough for Hird to keep his job. It certainly wasn't enough to clear his name either.

If people, rightly or wrongly, feel that the only reason that Fagan or Clarkson keep their jobs is because they have expensive lawyers that found a loophole, whilst the people they allegedly wronged don't get heard - their positions become untenable very quickly.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

The media seems eerily quiet about this affair since Friday. They went hard early and have since fallen rather silent. Racism stories sell papers. I find it very telling that they’ve eased up.

Have you considered that the media is keeping quiet on this issue for once out of respect for all parties involved (players, partners and Clarkson and Fagan) and just let the investigation/natural justice take its course ?.

This story goes way beyond the issues of racism btw, it's also about the issue of powerful/influential men having autonomy over women and women's bodies.

Your takes on this issue are absolutely pox btw. I am just gratified to know most Hawthorn fans here don't share your views.