Analysis Hawthorn rebuild: are they tanking?

[sr36]

My point in case it escaped you is that the umpires can be forgiven for ignoring legitimate Ginnivan frees because he fakes so many

Yesterday was a regression for Jack. He'd been learning to play footy rather than auditioning for Broadway. I think Mitchell will sort out.

 

[HairyO]

My point in case it escaped you is that the umpires can be forgiven for ignoring legitimate Ginnivan frees because he fakes so many

How do you fake being tackled from behind and driven face first into the ground with an opponent (2 one of the times) on your back?

If the umpires cant tell the difference between that and when a big player (Cripps is the good example here) throws himself forward then they arent even VFL level umpires.

They clearly made the decision not to even think about it if it was him.

We also had a player slammed head first into the ground in a tackle with no free. Will be interesting to see if Christian bothers given the media didnt care.

 

[Mr Meow]

The tigers changed the thinking on that. For a while now the good teams have set up to win scores from stoppage rather than to win the stoppage stat - so they play a defensively minded mid to cover off blokes shooting out the front of stoppage and who can distribute. That bloke doesn't crash in to win the clearance. So the other team often wins the clearance stats, because they've got 3 rather than 2 hunting the footy at centre bounces, but their clearances aren't usually as effective.

Hawks are still in development mode, so they're all still hunting the footy around stoppage. Plus they're not as strong defensively so they have to be all in to win stoppage as they can't trust their defence to hold up to multiple sloppy entries.

Yep, this is what Geelong did by shifting Blicavs and Atkins to midfield in 2022 and generally having a cast of players who could pressure opposition more, then break at pace to deliver quickly to the forward line. It fell apart in 2023 with the team unfit, hammered by injuries and a few older players struggling but as a template that 2022 model was more effective than having pure ball hunter set ups such as Selwood-Dangerfield-Ablett, Selwood-Dangerfield-Kelly, Selwood-Dangerfield-Guthrie etc without enough defensive players to mitigate damage from opposition clearances.

Even this year Geelong are loading up with decent pressure players like Parfitt, Atkins, Bruhn and Clark - losing the clearance count but not leaking as many damaging ones.

Hawthorn will find their right balance in the coming years.

 

[sr36]

Yep, this is what Geelong did by shifting Blicavs and Atkins to midfield in 2022 and generally having a cast of players who could pressure opposition more, then break at pace to deliver quickly to the forward line. It fell apart in 2023 with the team unfit, hammered by injuries and a few older players struggling but as a template that 2022 model was more effective than having pure ball hunter set ups such as Selwood-Dangerfield-Ablett, Selwood-Dangerfield-Kelly, Selwood-Dangerfield-Guthrie etc without enough defensive players to mitigate damage from opposition clearances.

Even this year Geelong are loading up with decent pressure players like Parfitt, Atkins, Bruhn and Clark - losing the clearance count but not leaking as many damaging ones.

Hawthorn will find their right balance in the coming years.

And it is a different balance for different teams. Teams with a strong defence and that can rebound can afford to lose the clearance count and initial field position. Other defences will get overloaded in that situation. I think the hawks best chance is to win the clearance numbers and try to overwhelm that way, as their midfield is their strength.

 

[Sttew]

How do you fake being tackled from behind and driven face first into the ground with an opponent (2 one of the times) on your back?

If the umpires cant tell the difference between that and when a big player (Cripps is the good example here) throws himself forward then they arent even VFL level umpires.

They clearly made the decision not to even think about it if it was him.

We also had a player slammed head first into the ground in a tackle with no free. Will be interesting to see if Christian bothers given the media didnt care.

Players do it all the time. You feel or sense someone immediately behind you and dive forward as though being driven into the ground. I reckon Ginnivan deserved 2 frees but as I keep saying how can you blame the umpires for missing a legitimate free when Ginnivan fakes head high contact etc so often and did so before and after the legitimate frees yesterday? They may well have written Ginnivan off because of his poor acting.

As for the other free you mention, the free score was +1 Hawks way. There were plenty of frees that Geelong missed out on.

 

[MisterMarcus]

WTF even is this thread?

"Young inexperienced team shows plenty of effort and guts, but doesn't have the skill to sustain consistent performances and gets overwhelmed late by more experienced opponents" is Rebuild Years 101 for many clubs.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Players do it all the time. You feel or sense someone immediately behind you and dive forward as though being driven into the ground. I reckon Ginnivan deserved 2 frees but as I keep saying how can you blame the umpires for missing a legitimate free when Ginnivan fakes head high contact etc so often and did so before and after the legitimate frees yesterday? They may well have written Ginnivan off because of his poor acting.

As for the other free you mention, the free score was +1 Hawks way. There were plenty of frees that Geelong missed out on.

When Geelong get rewarded for ducking into hawks players (miers in 1st quarter) and multiple insufficient intent frees pulled out of arse all in one direction the free kick gap should have been larger.

 

[TheFourPillars]

My point in case it escaped you is that the umpires can be forgiven for ignoring legitimate Ginnivan frees because he fakes so many

Everyone knew what Selwood was doing to draw free kicks and yet he kept getting them. It's all about the publicity and how well your accepted in the game.

Edit: Btw your smaller players were also playing for free kicks the entire game. They got some pretty dubious ones. Ones that weren't free kicks. Its just that some players are umpired differently to others because of the focus on them.

In saying all that it didn't decide the game. Geelong were too good. Umpires never decide games

 

[Sttew]

Everyone knew what Selwood was doing to draw free kicks and yet he kept getting them. It's all about the publicity and how well your accepted in the game.

This isn't about Selwood though, is it.

 

[TheFourPillars]

This isn't about Selwood though, is it.

No it isn't I used him as a reference to point out how different players are judged more harshly than others. Its an unmitigated fact

 

[Sttew]

No it isn't I used him as a reference to point out how different players are judged more harshly than others. Its an unmitigated fact

The big differences between Selwood and Ginnivan are/were:

• Selwood drew the opposition player's arm up and around his neck by lowering his knees / body. Leigh Matthews always said it was lazy tackling; the opposition player needed to grab Selwood around the waist. With Ginnivan the opposition player rarely gets anywhere near his neck. I counted three occasions yesterday where Ginnivan flung his head back without being tackled.
• Selwood invariably played on; he didn't wait for the umpire's whistle. Ginnivan does it to stop play and draw a free kick 100% of the time.
• Selwood was a champion. Ginnivan just wears baggy shorts

 

[smish]

The big differences between Selwood and Ginnivan are/were:

• Selwood drew the opposition player's arm up and around his neck by lowering his knees / body. Leigh Matthews always said it was lazy tackling; the opposition player needed to grab Selwood around the waist. With Ginnivan the opposition player rarely gets anywhere near his neck. I counted three occasions yesterday where Ginnivan flung his head back without being tackled.
• Selwood invariably played on; he didn't wait for the umpire's whistle. Ginnivan does it to stop play and draw a free kick 100% of the time.
• Selwood was a champion. Ginnivan just wears baggy shorts

Didn't Selwood admit last week he made a career out of drawing free kicks from high tackles? Not sure you've got a leg to stand on here.

 

[Sttew]

Didn't Selwood admit last week he made a career out of drawing free kicks from high tackles? Not sure you've got a leg to stand on here.

Drawing head high tackles and faking head high tackles are two distinct issues. Yes Selwood drew free kicks by drawing the opposition player's arm around his neck. Ginnivan tries to draw free kicks by faking a head high tackle. If you cannot see the distinction then that's on you. The umpires and the AFL can see the distinction.

Leigh Matthews repeatedly said it should be up to the tackler to ensure no contact was made with the head.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Drawing head high tackles and faking head high tackles are two distinct issues. Yes Selwood drew free kicks by drawing the opposition player's arm around his neck. Ginnivan tries to draw free kicks by faking a head high tackle. If you cannot see the distinction then that's on you. The umpires and the AFL can see the distinction.

Leigh Matthews repeatedly said it should be up to the tackler to ensure no contact was made with the head.

HAHAHAHA its because he was Selwood. If he was Toby Greene he wouldn't get the same leeway. Mate he was clearly umpired differently to everyone else hence the numerous free kicks he received. Anyways this is distracting the main point of this thread and it has nothing to do with Ginnivan or Selwood so I will leave it there

 

[Hodgey 15]

Didn't Selwood admit last week he made a career out of drawing free kicks from high tackles? Not sure you've got a leg to stand on here.

My word he did. And was very sheepish about it too.

 

[smish]

Drawing head high tackles and faking head high tackles are two distinct issues. Yes Selwood drew free kicks by drawing the opposition player's arm around his neck. Ginnivan tries to draw free kicks by faking a head high tackle. If you cannot see the distinction then that's on you. The umpires and the AFL can see the distinction.

Leigh Matthews repeatedly said it should be up to the tackler to ensure no contact was made with the head.

Nice post mate, appreciate the effort. But let’s not play semantics here. The bloke you’re trying to defend literally admitted to doing exactly what you’re trying to defend him from doing.

 

[Sttew]

Nice post mate, appreciate the effort. But let’s not play semantics here. The bloke you’re trying to defend literally admitted to doing exactly what you’re trying to defend him from doing.

Faking? Selwood didn't fake; he drew the head high contact by lowering his knees / body. Nobody is disputing that. Ginnivan doesn't even draw head high contact before he flings his head back

Nice try!!

 

[sr36]

Everyone knew what Selwood was doing to draw free kicks and yet he kept getting them. It's all about the publicity and how well your accepted in the game.

Edit: Btw your smaller players were also playing for free kicks the entire game. They got some pretty dubious ones. Ones that weren't free kicks. Its just that some players are umpired differently to others because of the focus on them.

In saying all that it didn't decide the game. Geelong were too good. Umpires never decide games

Selwood did it and kept on playing - trying to drive through the tackle and break it our get his hands free to dispose - so it wasn't as obvious that we has doing it because it wasn't his only goal it often felt like the bloke had just gotten him high. Ginni stops and tries to highlight it, but what he's actually highlighting is that he's playing for a free and not trying to do anything else - he's lifting and scopping his arm upwards - pushing the opponents arm above the shoulder and then dropping at the knees and grabbing the arm that is over his shoulder. It's rubbish that shouldn't be paid - Selwood's shouldn't have been paid either, but he did it better.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Ignoring high frees, twice he had Geelong players in his back and driving him into the ground, plus being hit high in a marking contest.

He could easily have got Selwood level free kicks without any of the raising arm.

There was one in the last quarter where he absolutely flung himself forward. As they're going to ground the only contact with the Geelong tackler was the arms around his front trying to hold him up and turn him. The umpire absolutely made the right decision and it makes it very hard to give him the benefit of the doubt when he continually stages like that.

Same with the "high" tackle from Bowes in the last quarter when Ginnivan threw his head back then threw his arms out and stopped playing expecting the free kick. Replays showed a textbook tackle across the chest with no high contact.

 

[Mr Meow]

My word he did. And was very sheepish about it too.

Yeah, the self deprecation that still somehow triggered the mouth frothers who screamed abuse his way all career really screamed of someone avoiding the issue.

Selwood very well knew that hitting the ball with ferocity and shrugging on contact would lead to breaking the tackle and/or causing an sloppy opponent to infringe. It's not even in the same class as forwards who dive and flop, who are basically giving up on the play and hoping the umpire bails them out.

Ginnivan's displays are designed to deceive the umpire rather than exploiting an opposition error. Therein lies the difference. And it's why he's umpired harshly.

 

[Mr Meow]

Selwood did it and kept on playing - trying to drive through the tackle and break it our get his hands free to dispose - so it wasn't as obvious that we has doing it because it wasn't his only goal it often felt like the bloke had just gotten him high. Ginni stops and tries to highlight it, but what he's actually highlighting is that he's playing for a free and not trying to do anything else - he's lifting and scopping his arm upwards - pushing the opponents arm above the shoulder and then dropping at the knees and grabbing the arm that is over his shoulder. It's rubbish that shouldn't be paid - Selwood's shouldn't have been paid either, but he did it better.

And a free kick inside 50 is much more damaging. A midfielder going hell for leather and either breaking free or winning a free kick is a lot different to a forward deciding to not attack the goals and instead search for high contact to earn a "cheap" shot at goal.

If Ginnivan converts his flop into a shrug that then results in a snap on goal I'm sure he'd get more sympathy. But when he feels an opponent near him he decides the play is dead.

 

[hawkman]

There was one in the last quarter where he absolutely flung himself forward. As they're going to ground the only contact with the Geelong tackler was the arms around his front trying to hold him up and turn him. The umpire absolutely made the right decision and it makes it very hard to give him the benefit of the doubt when he continually stages like that.

Same with the "high" tackle from Bowes in the last quarter when Ginnivan threw his head back then threw his arms out and stopped playing expecting the free kick. Replays showed a textbook tackle across the chest with no high contact.

In the last quarter yeah he was playing for them. Probably fed up that he wasn't getting the legitimate free kicks he should have got in the first 3 quarters so tried to highlight it even further which was the wrong way to go about it as it gives more ammunition to say he is just playing for them

 

[Red Bull]

Hawthorn rebuild

Selwood
Umpires
Free kicks
Rules

 

[sr36]

And a free kick inside 50 is much more damaging. A midfielder going hell for leather and either breaking free or winning a free kick is a lot different to a forward deciding to not attack the goals and instead search for high contact to earn a "cheap" shot at goal.

If Ginnivan converts his flop into a shrug that then results in a snap on goal I'm sure he'd get more sympathy. But when he feels an opponent near him he decides the play is dead.

I was a bit disappointed in it yesterday. It was regression, as he was progressing and beginning to keep his feet and try to get a disposal off - he'll be a much better when he drops this shit and doesn't bring it back as a default. He was doing it at times yesterday when miles out from goal when he had it in pretty open play and was unlikely to have a tackle that stopped the ball - but stupidly went for an all or nothing free which would have just resulted in a slow play into a set Geelong defence.

 

[Footy Smarts]

In the last quarter yeah he was playing for them. Probably fed up that he wasn't getting the legitimate free kicks he should have got in the first 3 quarters so tried to highlight it even further which was the wrong way to go about it as it gives more ammunition to say he is just playing for them

There were plenty in the first 3 quarters.

Even in one of the ones that was a genuine free everything he was doing was trying to get a free kick from lowering his body to raising his arms to force the tackle higher. It still should've been paid regardless.

But it puts the umpires in an impossible position when he's doing everything to force the tackle high and repeatedly faking high contact. How do you tell the 1 in 10 that's genuine high contact and wasn't instigated by Ginnivan?