Vic How would you rate Daniel Andrews' performance as Victorian Premier?

[Pakenhamsaint]

After Glen Waverley going east it drops significantly down to Dandenong Creek/Jells Park cant see it being feasible for a train. Thats why talk of a Rowville line always looks at an extention along Wellington rd.

That and these days there's a massive multi story building right at the balks of Glen Waverley making it that little bit harder to dig under it.

And it's a similar argument with Wallan than with Whittlesea isn't it? Who exactly are you servicing? There's **** all people in Wallan, and not much between Wallan and Craigieburn.

Wallan is stage 4 of the PTV network development plan:
https://www.urban.com.au/sites/urban.melbourne/files/schematic_stage_4.png

 

[Pessimistic]

Slap the skyrail numpties and run them up every freeway.(skyrails that is)
Next

 

[its free real estate]

Of course it's likely to change if it's made easier for people to travel between suburbs. It's one of the main reasons this is such a great idea - it allows business and government to decentralise operations from the city and allows them to look to the suburbs.

Decentralisation is a pipe dream.

 

[tandino]

Is the new rail official TforV policy? if not Dan's as irresponsible as Napthine before him

It is a bit of a head scratcher.

The whole reason for Infrastructure Victoria was to take the politics out of infrastructure development in this state. The best minds in the state put together a 30 year strategy that's over 200 pages long, and outlines 137 recommendations to see us out into the future. Not one of those recommendations touches on orbital rail.

Ultimately the Government has the democratic will, but if we're going to continue down this track than we may as well drop all the pretenses about independence and expert-driven infrastructure planning and accept that we've back to picking winners for election campaigns.

 

[nobbyiscool]

Decentralisation is a pipe dream.

Rubbish. Our economic zones are centralised because of access - it's not the other way around.

Provide better access to other areas, and there is less need for everyone to go to the city.

 

[its free real estate]

Rubbish. Our economic zones are centralised because of access - it's not the other way around.

Provide better access to other areas, and there is less need for everyone to go to the city.

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

 

[Frank Bunn]

Of course it's likely to change if it's made easier for people to travel between suburbs. It's one of the main reasons this is such a great idea - it allows business and government to decentralise operations from the city and allows them to look to the suburbs.

So spend $90 billion and hope for the best that major employers move to the suburbs? That's an extremely expensive gamble. The Regional Rail Link connected Wyndham Vale and Tarneit to Geelong and the inner western suburbs. It's been open over three years but no one from Geelong or the inner west gets off at those stations in the morning.

 

[Frank Bunn]

It is a bit of a head scratcher.

The whole reason for Infrastructure Victoria was to take the politics out of infrastructure development in this state. The best minds in the state put together a 30 year strategy that's over 200 pages long, and outlines 137 recommendations to see us out into the future. Not one of those recommendations touches on orbital rail.

Ultimately the Government has the democratic will, but if we're going to continue down this track than we may as well drop all the pretenses about independence and expert-driven infrastructure planning and accept that we've back to picking winners for election campaigns.

There's no votes in an apolitical proposal.

 

[Fire]

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

I'm guessing you've not lived outside of Australia before?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

So spend $90 billion and hope for the best that major employers move to the suburbs? That's an extremely expensive gamble. The Regional Rail Link connected Wyndham Vale and Tarneit to Geelong and the inner western suburbs. It's been open over three years but no one from Geelong or the inner west gets off at those stations in the morning.

Yeah, because that's the same

FMD!!

 

[nobbyiscool]

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

You ever visited a city outside Australia?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sainteric]

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

Big cities arent look at toyko

 

[Sainteric]

I mean that V/Line is not the same as Metro, its a different product and a different price, sure it uses Myki but that doesn't make it a metro train system

People that don't currently live near a metro station out west are complaining that they aren't seeing metro development happening out their way from a trains perspective, they get buses or if lucky a V/Line

Not that hard to understand is it?

Its the same as metro Myki has zones 1 2 3 4 etc anything above 2 is beyond metro, but if u catch v line inside zone 2 you pay the same as metro.

 

[Gralin]

It is a bit of a head scratcher.

The whole reason for Infrastructure Victoria was to take the politics out of infrastructure development in this state. The best minds in the state put together a 30 year strategy that's over 200 pages long, and outlines 137 recommendations to see us out into the future. Not one of those recommendations touches on orbital rail.

Ultimately the Government has the democratic will, but if we're going to continue down this track than we may as well drop all the pretenses about independence and expert-driven infrastructure planning and accept that we've back to picking winners for election campaigns.

The fact Infrastructure Vic never even considered orbital rail raises its own questions about what their brief was and how they are influenced. Did they only propose project they thought governments might say yes to and left good idea on the floor?

Were they too focused on the wrong ideas?

Makes me think of that think tank setup for creating an Urban plan for Melbourne over the next 30 years, they did it then got told it would never happen because no Government would put their ideas into practice as it would be political suicide.

And that comes back to the root problem with infrastructure in this country, it's either used as a method to buy votes or to make someone rich.

Private enterprise proposing toll roads or elect me and I will spend money in your suburb over the next four years.

It doesn't matter what either party says in opposition they tend to do the same thing when in power, rush their projects through.

Now I like the idea of the Orbital rail, it opens up so much and puts in infrastructure that can go a long way to addressing shortcomings of our system, but where was the public consultation over the past few years? Why are we only hearing about this now?

We do it all backwards

 

[Pessimistic]

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

Trend is more centralised as manufacturing declines.

Freight is a big part of transport, and will grow faster than passenger demand. Only so much of that can be handled by rail

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

LNP sympathisers are saying a lot of dumb stuff in here (see below) because they're desperate to spin this popular idea as a bad thing.

Let me add some more: Given the long time-frame on this, is there a chance that technology might overtake the plans? I'm sure plenty of overly-keen public servants / politicians have looked at the 'hyperloop' idea. That's obviously in very early days and promoted for longer distances, but you could see different tech coming into play that might require a specific tunnel type. If it's meant to start in 2022 they might be thinking of altering the plan shortly thereafter to take account for those developments. Andrews said this morning that the orbital train will reach 130KM/H so Cheltenham to Tulla would be 45min, but with a long-term plan you hope it's taking into account some flexibility (for all the bagging of the NBN, using fibre does allow plenty of easy upscaling of the wires later on).

So spend $90 billion and hope for the best that major employers move to the suburbs? That's an extremely expensive gamble. The Regional Rail Link connected Wyndham Vale and Tarneit to Geelong and the inner western suburbs. It's been open over three years but no one from Geelong or the inner west gets off at those stations in the morning.

Hahaha. Another LNP sympathiser pretending to care about the west? This thread reminds me of all the Murdoch writers claiming working class knowledge because their cabchared Taxi driver said something, or a tradie working on their renovations said something. So 'in touch'.

If you actually ever went through Wyndham Vale or Tarneit you would know how off-base your attempted retort is. Housing is still being built out there. Hence why Rob R's claims earlier in the thread showed he had no idea too. Linking those stations to Geelong/Sunshine/Footscray/Melbourne is the obvious plan there, so you expect commercial build up in those hubs, not in the suburbia-zoned areas.

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

I'm guessing you've not lived outside of Australia before?

You ever visited a city outside Australia?


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Hey c'mon. Sydney may not be Australia's capital, but it is still in Australia. Plenty of hubs outside the centre of the city there. Having the harbour forced that upon them, but then they've also done it through deliberate policy.

But I'm sure you're right that 'its free real estate' doesn't get out much. Creating a sock puppet account shows a fairly specific neediness for online social life.

It is a bit of a head scratcher.

The whole reason for Infrastructure Victoria was to take the politics out of infrastructure development in this state. The best minds in the state put together a 30 year strategy that's over 200 pages long, and outlines 137 recommendations to see us out into the future. Not one of those recommendations touches on orbital rail.

Ultimately the Government has the democratic will, but if we're going to continue down this track than we may as well drop all the pretenses about independence and expert-driven infrastructure planning and accept that we've back to picking winners for election campaigns.

I wonder if the difference is that the PS is following the trends, while Labor wants to try and help break those trends.

 

[its free real estate]

Big cities arent look at toyko

Tokyo's density is 20 times that of Melbourne. The 'decentralisation' only makes sense because what constitutes the 'centre' is enormous.

Allusions to Sydney are laughable. People pretend Parramatta and Chatswood are decentralised, but having lived there for years, I can tell you the city very much is not decentralised.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Tokyo's density is 20 times that of Melbourne. The 'decentralisation' only makes sense because what constitutes the 'centre' is enormous.

Allusions to Sydney are laughable. People pretend Parramatta and Chatswood are decentralised, but having lived there for years, I can tell you the city very much is not decentralised.

Don't be shy. Please, tell us why... it is "not decentralised".

If nothing else, I'm sure it will help explain how you've shifted from...

Decentralisation is a pipe dream.

Cities are by their nature centralising. It’s a fallacy to think they will be decentralised

...to...

'decentralisation' only makes sense because what constitutes the 'centre' is enormous.

...only 2 hours later.

What do you think 'decentralisation' means?

 

[its free real estate]

Don't be shy. Please, tell us why... it is "not decentralised".

If nothing else, I'm sure it will help explain how you've shifted from...


...to...

...only 2 hours later.

It's not decentralisation if you're simply expanding the centre. Duh. For Melbourne to be 'decentralised' like Tokyo, it would have to have a population of 20 million.

 

[laam]

Some more detail out today that the western section is planned to be mostly above ground in existing corridors. So thats airport to Sunshine in the existing ARTC corridor where they are putting in airport link. Not sure what they intend from Sunshine to Werribee. There is an ARTC corridor from Sunshine to Newport they may be thinking of using to then tie back in to the Werribee line at Newport.

If thats the plan the West is seriously duded from this.

On a different note I do think the Sandringham line should be considered as a connection. That way you can run the line as a complete loop. Sandringham to city, city to Werribee, then Werribee to Sandringham via the orbital.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

It's not decentralisation if you're simply expanding the centre. Duh. For Melbourne to be 'decentralised' like Tokyo, it would have to have a population of 20 million.

"Duh"? Maybe don't say "duh" when you are speaking with low confidence. It cheapens an otherwise highly-respectable retort.

Why do you think Sydney isn't decentralised in parts? In your head does the centre have to stay exactly the same size (or reduce) for it to count? That's the only way I can see you thinking your making sense.

Some more detail out today that the western section is planned to be mostly above ground in existing corridors. So thats airport to Sunshine in the existing ARTC corridor where they are putting in airport link. Not sure what they intend from Sunshine to Werribee. There is an ARTC corridor from Sunshine to Newport they may be thinking of using to then tie back in to the Werribee line at Newport.

If thats the plan the West is seriously duded from this.

On a different note I do think the Sandringham line should be considered as a connection. That way you can run the line as a complete loop. Sandringham to city, city to Werribee, then Werribee to Sandringham via the orbital.

C'mon, man. Try harder. The link is to Werribee on the released proposal, and Sandringham users can easily switch up the line and cut across to Box Hill or something.

 

[laam]

"Duh"? Maybe don't say "duh" when you are speaking with low confidence. It cheapens an otherwise highly-respectable retort.

Why do you think Sydney isn't decentralised in parts? In your head does the centre have to stay exactly the same size (or reduce) for it to count? That's the only way I can see you thinking your making sense.

C'mon, man. Try harder. The link is to Werribee on the released proposal, and Sandringham users can easily switch up the line and cut across to Box Hill or something.

Yep. Just thought Western end probably just puts additions tracks along the RRL route but ties into Werribee. Much better.

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[its free real estate]

"Duh"? Maybe don't say "duh" when you are speaking with low confidence. It cheapens an otherwise highly-respectable retort.

I'm saying it you because I don't respect you, windbag.

Why do you think Sydney isn't decentralised in parts? In your head does the centre have to stay exactly the same size (or reduce) for it to count? That's the only way I can see you thinking your making sense.

The other 'centres' of Sydney are nowhere near the magnitude of the actual centre. Parramatta was a separate town from Sydney at foundation, and gradually absorbed by the city. It was never decentralised, and it's absorption into the city boundaries led to decline. It's no bigger now relative to the city of Sydney than it was 100+ years ago back before it was technically part of Sydney.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

I'm saying it you because I don't respect you, windbag.

Now that's no way for a sock-puppet to treat someone simply trying to help his uninformed spin make more sense.

The other 'centres' of Sydney are nowhere near the magnitude of the actual centre. Parramatta was a separate town from Sydney at foundation, and gradually absorbed by the city. It was never decentralised, and it's absorption into the city boundaries led to decline. It's no bigger now relative to the city of Sydney than it was 100+ years ago back before it was technically part of Sydney.

Thank you for answering the mystery. You think 'decentralisation' requires a place other than the centre to be larger than the centre. Which still doesn't make sense for you claiming that it's only possible in cities where the centre is 'enormous', but anyway, we get why you weren't making sense now.

For your own future life interactions, keep in mind few people use 'decentralisation' to mean what you're saying in regards to urban planning. The idea is to reduce the focus and pressure on the centre by developing other hubs. e.g. like Sydney is developing Parra, or (if you never leave the centre) like how Nth Sydney/Crow's Nest over the bridge is majorly built up.

Yep. Just thought Western end probably just puts additions tracks along the RRL route but ties into Werribee. Much better.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

Somewhat of a physical hint at the location of the coridoor is in this map. I do like the idea of connecting RRL and Werribee for possible re-route options but I guess we'll learn more later.

 

[its free real estate]

The idea is to reduce the focus and pressure on the centre by developing other hubs. e.g. like Sydney is developing Parra, or (if you never leave the centre) like how Nth Sydney/Crow's Nest over the bridge is majorly built up.

And this has not, and will not, happen in Sydney. All major infrastructure projects running at the moment are centred around the CBD.

Considering you spent the entirety of this thread calling others out-of-towners, amusing that you weigh in here with ill considered assertions about a city you don't even live in.