Opinion Ideal 22 in season 2014

[swans2014]

With LRT and Tippett in the side there should be enough cover to make sure that 1) Pyke gets the rest he needs, and 2) Tippet doesn't have to spend too much time rucking.

I agree with those that suggest that Tippett's most damaging as a key forward and should only be in the ruck when needed. If Pyke can ruck most of the game and LRT can help out Tippett should really only have to be in the ruck for a few minutes per quarter.

 

[GoTheSwannies]

With LRT and Tippett in the side there should be enough cover to make sure that 1) Pyke gets the rest he needs, and 2) Tippet doesn't have to spend too much time rucking.

I agree with those that suggest that Tippett's most damaging as a key forward and should only be in the ruck when needed. If Pyke can ruck most of the game and LRT can help out Tippett should really only have to be in the ruck for a few minutes per quarter.

I think that's the ideal situation, with Pyke to have 2-3 games off throughout the season with one of our other less experienced ruckman to be given a run as #1 ruckman in his absence. Rather than giving Pyke too much of a rest on game day, I'd prefer he be given a solid rest at times during the season.

In saying that, it's not a strategy we've seen the swans use in the past so not sure if it's even an option. Also, the article that someone posted seemed to suggest that Horse may go with two rucks, I'm not so sure about that, we'll probably do so only during the NAB cup, but I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[Punts]

the reason Punts is we did not pay all that money for a second ruck. We paid it for a FF. If we wanted a second ruck we could have picked one up cheap, fruit we did!

He was never just a FF at the Crows , and what a load of crap about the money and if that's the case and he can only stand in the goal square all game and cant use the advantage as a 2nd ruck well u might as well pay Pyke half the wage and sit in the goal as he is just as good as Tippett over head.
Don't get me wrong I love having Tippett in the Team but he is not god ffs , some seem to think this guy is the greatest forward to ever play the game , yer he kicked a few against weaker op but got towelled up in the big games against Lake , Taylor etc and until he week in week out or in big Finals tears games apart im a sorry to say he is just another good AFL player , far from what a champion.
He still needs to learn being a FF , he is not a natural FF like a Walker , Hawkins , Cloke ets etc , his leading patterns are still off and anyone can stand in the goal square a put one arm in the air and call for it ( cause for the high bomb )

 

[Count Dooku]

He was never just a FF at the Crows , and what a load of crap about the money and if that's the case and he can only stand in the goal square all game and cant use the advantage as a 2nd ruck well u might as well pay Pyke half the wage and sit in the goal as he is just as good as Tippett over head.
Don't get me wrong I love having Tippett in the Team but he is not god ffs , some seem to think this guy is the greatest forward to ever play the game , yer he kicked a few against weaker op but got towelled up in the big games against Lake , Taylor etc and until he week in week out or in big Finals tears games apart im a sorry to say he is just another good AFL player , far from what a champion.
He still needs to learn being a FF , he is not a natural FF like a Walker , Hawkins , Cloke ets etc , his leading patterns are still off and anyone can stand in the goal square a put one arm in the air and call for it ( cause for the high bomb )

Tippett is the prototype of the perfect modern day FF, ideal for the way the game is evolving. 201cm, strong mark, great below his knees, versatile and dual positional in ruck. So I agree with you he should not just sit in the goal square but you are missing the point of how valuable and unique this guy is. Our club is not stupid, we paid big money and took big political fall out to get this guy for a reason. Midfielders are a dime a dozen, Tall KPF like Tippett, Buddy and even Tom Boyd dont grow on trees. Given the unusual circumstances in the 2013 season we could not adjust our game plan around him as we would have liked. Despite the headwinds, Tippetts output for us last year was outstanding. With additional team planning and structures I expect a massive year from the big man and huge flow on benefits to the team and especially Sam Reid........and thats without adding Buddy to the equation! If we click, just imagine the perfection of last years performance versus Adelaide plus Tippett, Buddy and Reid in full flight!

 

[DeadlyAkkuret]

You're very harsh on Tippett, punts. Pretty uncalled for imo.

 

[Punts]

You're very harsh on Tippett, punts. Pretty uncalled for imo.

Its just telling the truth mate , don't get me wrong I think he can take his game to the next level no doubt and become a power house of the comp and I hope he does it this year and beyond but until he rips games apart on the big stage ala Hall , Buddy , Carey etc etc he is just another good AFL player.

 

[Punts]

Tippett is the prototype of the perfect modern day FF, ideal for the way the game is evolving. 201cm, strong mark, great below his knees, versatile and dual positional in ruck. So I agree with you he should not just sit in the goal square but you are missing the point of how valuable and unique this guy is. Our club is not stupid, we paid big money and took big political fall out to get this guy for a reason. Midfielders are a dime a dozen, Tall KPF like Tippett, Buddy and even Tom Boyd dont grow on trees. Given the unusual circumstances in the 2013 season we could not adjust our game plan around him as we would have liked. Despite the headwinds, Tippetts output for us last year was outstanding. With additional team planning and structures I expect a massive year from the big man and huge flow on benefits to the team and especially Sam Reid........and thats without adding Buddy to the equation! If we click, just imagine the perfection of last years performance versus Adelaide plus Tippett, Buddy and Reid in full flight!

Agree with some points mate , he will doubt help Reid etc etc , I just want him to demand the 50 more a lead up to the ball carrier.
As I said im not knocking him at all , would love him to rip apart the Lakes and Taylors of the game

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Its just telling the truth mate , don't get me wrong I think he can take his game to the next level no doubt and become a power house of the comp and I hope he does it this year and beyond but until he rips games apart on the big stage ala Hall , Buddy , Carey etc etc he is just another good AFL player.

What would taking it to the next level be for you Punts? i thought he did everything that was required from him and more in half a season.

 

[Punts]

What would taking it to the next level be for you Punts? i thought he did everything that was required from him and more in half a season.

Do it against quality KD like I think he will , once more I not bagging him mate

 

[Count Dooku]

Agree with some points mate , he will doubt help Reid etc etc , I just want him to demand the 50 more a lead up to the ball carrier.
As I said im not knocking him at all , would love him to rip apart the Lakes and Taylors of the game

We did not recruit Tippett as a lead up forward! Any 190cm forward can do that, even resting midfielders. What makes him special and dangerous is contested marking and ruck flexibility. Even if he doesnt mark he competes and brings it to a dangerous area. As much as I love Jesse White he couldnt do that. He plays more like a roving flanker. Tippett competes like Travis Cloke with more height, positional flexibility and better ground skills. There are power forwards and just forwards. Tippett is rare and valuable beast and I wouldnt be surprised if he becomes our most valuable player. Think of it from an opposition coaches point of view, match up from hell. Especially with Reid and Buddy in the team.

 

[Punts]

We did not recruit Tippett as a lead up forward! Any 190cm forward can do that, even resting midfielders. What makes him special and dangerous is contested marking and ruck flexibility. Even if he doesnt mark he competes and brings it to a dangerous area. As much as I love Jesse White he couldnt do that. He plays more like a roving flanker. Tippett competes like Travis Cloke with more height, positional flexibility and better ground skills. There are power forwards and just forwards. Tippett is rare and valuable beast and I wouldnt be surprised if he becomes our most valuable player. Think of it from an opposition coaches point of view, match up from hell. Especially with Reid and Buddy in the team.

More to the point I want him to ruck at times even if its 20% of game time

 

[Punts]

We did not recruit Tippett as a lead up forward! Any 190cm forward can do that, even resting midfielders. What makes him special and dangerous is contested marking and ruck flexibility. Even if he doesnt mark he competes and brings it to a dangerous area. As much as I love Jesse White he couldnt do that. He plays more like a roving flanker. Tippett competes like Travis Cloke with more height, positional flexibility and better ground skills. There are power forwards and just forwards. Tippett is rare and valuable beast and I wouldnt be surprised if he becomes our most valuable player. Think of it from an opposition coaches point of view, match up from hell. Especially with Reid and Buddy in the team.

More to the point I want him to ruck at times even if its 20% of game time

 

[Count Dooku]

More to the point I want him to ruck at times even if its 20% of game time

There has never been debate whether Tippett will ruck. Both last pre season and this year he has done many rucking sessions with steve Taubet.
Your criticism is targeting him as a forward and your solution is that he should be more lead up inside 50. I am asserting you have missed the essence of Tippett and the role of power forward. Your other claim was dominating against the best KPD like Carey et al. I remind you Carey had years or chemisty with his mids and two half decent supports like Longmire and McKernan. Even Ablett snr had Brownless and Stoneham. With Buddy, Reid and Goodes Tippett will dominate or at worst allow others dominate. I also totally disagree with your premise that Tippett was disappointing in 2013. I think he was outstanding given circumstances. On goals per game basis he was almost Coleman medallist FFS. Take some time to understand the role a power forward. Punts you have been magnificent this pre season with your updates but the whack on Tippett missed the mark.

 

[Keyter]

More to the point I want him to ruck at times even if its 20% of game time

Not being predictable is also the asset of Tippett. The best game Tippett has ever played was the Prelim against Hawthorn where he roamed far and wide in the 1st half. That really upset Hawthorn's structures, especially with his ability below the knees coupled with his marking. Add in Reid, (good mark from kick in when a get out is needed) and Buddy, (and maybe Goodes in the latter half) than the Swans will be aiming for flexibility across the ground to keep opposition unsettled.

Early days but the speed of ball movement seems to have gone up a notch in NAB. Teams are really structuring well in defence and upped the speed of ball movement out of defence - e.g. Melbourne took some great steps forward last night. Looking forward to seeing how Longmire and Co have developed the game plan to the talent they have.

The umpiring so far has been excellent, letting the game flow and only rewarding deserved kicks. This bodes well for a great season. There won't be many easy games this year.

 

[Wolftone]

He was never just a FF at the Crows , and what a load of crap about the money and if that's the case and he can only stand in the goal square all game and cant use the advantage as a 2nd ruck well u might as well pay Pyke half the wage and sit in the goal as he is just as good as Tippett over head.
Don't get me wrong I love having Tippett in the Team but he is not god ffs , some seem to think this guy is the greatest forward to ever play the game , yer he kicked a few against weaker op but got towelled up in the big games against Lake , Taylor etc and until he week in week out or in big Finals tears games apart im a sorry to say he is just another good AFL player , far from what a champion.
He still needs to learn being a FF , he is not a natural FF like a Walker , Hawkins , Cloke ets etc , his leading patterns are still off and anyone can stand in the goal square a put one arm in the air and call for it ( cause for the high bomb )

The good sides double teamed him as they knew he was our only tall option at times. I think he is a FF and if left there could develop into a very good FF. The problem he had at the Crows was always being used as a second ruck and he couldn't develop. He almost won them a GF birth by kicking 4 goals in a final. According to my nephew he was pretty good that day and he follows the Hawks.

The high bomb was not something I think he wanted so much as the game plan. We did it out of defence last year too. We bombed to Tip & White in finals when we should have been looking for the pass. Time and time again I got frustrated with the high bomb into the forward line not just to Tip but to any tall. Most were wasted kicks. you can't tell me that wasn't the game plan.

 

[MarkP]

Do it against quality KD like I think he will , once more I not bagging him mate

He nearly won a prelim final all by his lonesome against the Hawks in 2012. It still stands out in my mind as one of the greatest displays by a power forward doing more than just "being a forward" that I have seen. He was a colossus that day. The opposition were pretty handy too.

He then had half a year off and came into a team that was struggling with injuries that had not played with him.

Ended up injured himself too later on in that truncated season.

Now don't get me wrong and I not going full apologist for him here and perhaps I have spun things perfectly for the argument BUT he hasn't played with Reid, Goodes or Buddy yet. Or Rohan. He was sat one out and a tired midfield bombed it on his head when he was doubled teamed if not tripled.

I thought he did great given what a sputtering season.

I expect a quantum leap forward this year.

Not a knock at you Punts but gee I reckon for a bloke that played half a season with a partly broken side and topped the goals tally we sometimes are being bit harsh on him. And yeh keep the bugger away from regular rucking. I shudder to think of the implications of using him too much there.

 

[Punts]

The good sides double teamed him as they knew he was our only tall option at times. I think he is a FF and if left there could develop into a very good FF. The problem he had at the Crows was always being used as a second ruck and he couldn't develop. He almost won them a GF birth by kicking 4 goals in a final. According to my nephew he was pretty good that day and he follows the Hawks.

The high bomb was not something I think he wanted so much as the game plan. We did it out of defence last year too. We bombed to Tip & White in finals when we should have been looking for the pass. Time and time again I got frustrated with the high bomb into the forward line not just to Tip but to any tall. Most were wasted kicks. you can't tell me that wasn't the game plan.

That's what I saying , his best game I have ever seen him play was against the Hawks , Fwd/ruck and that's what I would like him do with us and then It means we can have another mid in the line up and not go with the 2 genuine rucks

 

[Punts]

He nearly won a prelim final all by his lonesome against the Hawks in 2012. It still stands out in my mind as one of the greatest displays by a power forward doing more than just "being a forward" that I have seen. He was a colossus that day. The opposition were pretty handy too.

He then had half a year off and came into a team that was struggling with injuries that had not played with him.

Ended up injured himself too later on in that truncated season.

Now don't get me wrong and I not going full apologist for him here and perhaps I have spun things perfectly for the argument BUT he hasn't played with Reid, Goodes or Buddy yet. Or Rohan. He was sat one out and a tired midfield bombed it on his head when he was doubled teamed if not tripled.

I thought he did great given what a sputtering season.

I expect a quantum leap forward this year.

Not a knock at you Punts but gee I reckon for a bloke that played half a season with a partly broken side and topped the goals tally we sometimes are being bit harsh on him. And yeh keep the bugger away from regular rucking. I shudder to think of the implications of using him too much there.

like I said playing Fwd/ruck that game and think he can do it for us

 

[Punts]

There has never been debate whether Tippett will ruck. Both last pre season and this year he has done many rucking sessions with steve Taubet.
Your criticism is targeting him as a forward and your solution is that he should be more lead up inside 50. I am asserting you have missed the essence of Tippett and the role of power forward. Your other claim was dominating against the best KPD like Carey et al. I remind you Carey had years or chemisty with his mids and two half decent supports like Longmire and McKernan. Even Ablett snr had Brownless and Stoneham. With Buddy, Reid and Goodes Tippett will dominate or at worst allow others dominate. I also totally disagree with your premise that Tippett was disappointing in 2013. I think he was outstanding given circumstances. On goals per game basis he was almost Coleman medallist FFS. Take some time to understand the role a power forward. Punts you have been magnificent this pre season with your updates but the whack on Tippett missed the mark.

I never whack him or once said he didn't play well at times in 2013 , all the said is he got beaten by Lake and Taylor that's it , he is a weapon yes 100% agree and most have said still his best game was against the Hawks in 2012 and I agree 100 (playing fwd/ruck ), all Im getting at is I think he is best suited to Fwd/ruck and give us advantage of playing a Towers or Harry etc in the line instead of another ruck , some agree some don't want im near the ruck , each to there own

 

[Wolftone]

I never whack him or once said he didn't play well at times in 2013 , all the said is he got beaten by Lake and Taylor that's it , he is a weapon yes 100% agree and most have said still his best game was against the Hawks in 2012 and I agree 100 (playing fwd/ruck ), all Im getting at is I think he is best suited to Fwd/ruck and give us advantage of playing a Towers or Harry etc in the line instead of another ruck , some agree some don't want im near the ruck , each to there own

Tippett had a whole 6 HO. He only rucked on the wing and forward. The same as a tall forward used to in the old days (bad old days of one ruck). Crows used the two up strategy just like we do in the forwardline.

 

[baja]

and if that's the case and he can only stand in the goal square all game and cant use the advantage as a 2nd ruck well u might as well pay Pyke half the wage and sit in the goal as he is just as good as Tippett over head.)

I think this bit of your post adds weight to playing two rucks. If the second ruck can rest deep forward, take a mark and kick a goal I think that would be so much better than asking a key forward to have a stint in the ruck. So many arguments but heres just a few.
When playing a key position especially forward you need to find some rhythm, timing get some confidence up find a way to beat your opponent and build on it that all gets taken away from you if thrown in the ruck and you have to start again, different if your getting badly beaten then I have no problem with a key forward getting thrown on the ball try get into the game.
Then there's the other side of the coin, lets use Tippett for arguments sake and say Johnson from Freo, all of a sudden Johnson is freed from the burden and starts rebounding like a machine its like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Like I said I think having two rucks is better as long as they can rest deep forward, take a mark kick a goal, take a better defender and at least bring it to the ground. Just my opinion, glad we played two rucks in the 2012 grand final it was the difference between winning and losing when Mumford went down.

 

[Syd]

I think this bit of your post adds weight to playing two rucks. If the second ruck can rest deep forward, take a mark and kick a goal I think that would be so much better than asking a key forward to have a stint in the ruck....

So after the hitouts, Pyke floats forward towards FF to present another tall marking option
Ball ends up in F50, extra tall\2nd ruck option in Tippett.
Ball ends up in F50 before Pyke gets there, Tippett rucks
Ball ends up in D50, ruck option in LRT

Cuts Pyke's running by half by not asking him to float back in defence.

 

[baja]

So after the hitouts, Pyke floats forward towards FF to present another tall marking option
Ball ends up in F50, extra tall\2nd ruck option in Tippett.
Ball ends up in F50 before Pyke gets there, Tippett rucks
Ball ends up in D50, ruck option in LRT

Cuts Pyke's running by half by not asking him to float back in defence.

Not sure exactly what your saying but I have no problem with Tippett or any other tall forward taking the odd boundary throw in, I was a ruck rover back in the day and I even took a few to help the ruckman (traditionally that's what the term ruck rover meant nowadays hes simply a midfielder) from sprinting down and it also helped by letting the big man zone up at CHF and stop it getting out of our forward 50. Im talking about starting at the centre bounce and following the ball as a true ruckman does.


*edit: I just read my post back this morning and it kinda sounds like I contradicted myself, to be clear I played in an era when nearly all teams played only one ruck the speed of the game changed a lot but most lesser leagues still have only the one ruck. I do see peoples arguments for both sides just I think having two is better as long as he can go forward(maybe FP) and make an impact, The rucks running at 100% for the whole game and same goes for the key positions, with the one ruck scenario when the KP relieves him neither positions are running at the optimum level and Id even argue when the KP goes back to his position rucking messes with everything, his rhythm, timing, leading patterns(both him and team mates), his battle with direct opponent, his breathing etc so the whole game neither positions are running at 100%. Confusing much? lol

I think that was Jessie Whites problem.

 

[Punts]

Good chance for Harry , Towers , Marsh etc to play well in the NAB to get a spot in the 22 as it looks like Goodes might miss

 

[YorshireSwan]

Not sure exactly what your saying but I have no problem with Tippett or any other tall forward taking the odd boundary throw in, I was a ruck rover back in the day and I even took a few to help the ruckman (traditionally that's what the term ruck rover meant nowadays hes simply a midfielder) from sprinting down and it also helped by letting the big man zone up at CHF and stop it getting out of our forward 50. Im talking about starting at the centre bounce and following the ball as a true ruckman does.


*edit: I just read my post back this morning and it kinda sounds like I contradicted myself, to be clear I played in an era when nearly all teams played only one ruck the speed of the game changed a lot but most lesser leagues still have only the one ruck. I do see peoples arguments for both sides just I think having two is better as long as he can go forward(maybe FP) and make an impact, The rucks running at 100% for the whole game and same goes for the key positions, with the one ruck scenario when the KP relieves him neither positions are running at the optimum level and Id even argue when the KP goes back to his position rucking messes with everything, his rhythm, timing, leading patterns(both him and team mates), his battle with direct opponent, his breathing etc so the whole game neither positions are running at 100%. Confusing much? lol

I think that was Jessie Whites problem.

I get what your saying Baja the only issue I have is that with Buddy effectively replacing Mummy in the side from 2013, I think the addition of another tall (to take punts thunder) might just send us over edge of being too tall even if Reid goes down back for periods. I think with LRT, Tippett and too an extent Reid in the team (and fit) then we have ability to cover the second ruck with minimal impact on our structure.