Expansion Is league in western sydney really that strong

[genghiskhan]

Pennant Hills is about 15-20 km west of Parramatta, about 6 or 7 km from Blacktown. Really, I think they are better off putting a team in the Hills areas, where there are no clear cut lines on what people support, and a burgeoning economy of young families lives.

While I'd agree that the people of Pennant Hills would be more impressionable, I'd say Blacktown would be better for the image of the AFL. Rougher area. It doesn't really matter. All people in west Sydney would be targeted and ultimately the team would be aiming to play at Stadium Australia.

 

[1908]

47,000 was the average for the home and away season at the MCG.

Of 45 games at the ground 30 were less than half full.

 

[Gman]

47,000 was the average for the home and away season at the MCG.

Of 45 games at the ground 30 were less than half full.

half full, half empty, however you look at very impressive stats

 

[RUNVS]

47,000 was the average for the home and away season at the MCG.

Of 45 games at the ground 30 were less than half full.

That is still not a bad percentage for the biggest stadium in Australia.

 

[Gman]

That is still not a bad percentage for the biggest stadium in Australia.

And the best stadium at that


Bloody daunting standing in the middle of the ground surrounded by a grandstand that circles the whole ground at such a height, and most importantly packed with spectators

Atmosphere at its best...

 

[genghiskhan]

And the best stadium at that


Bloody daunting standing in the middle of the ground surrounded by a grandstand that circles the whole ground at such a height, and most importantly packed with spectators

Atmosphere at its best...

It is a bit strange with all the modern technology they still can't build a stadium better than it. I must agree that a big game at the MCG is better than one at Stadium Australia. I've only been to one at Docklands and I hated it.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

72,393 is their biggest crowd against Collingwood back in 2003.

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/crowds/swans.html

That is not a sellout at Stadium Australia.

I think you'll find in AFL configuration that is a sellout at Homebush.

No it's 82,000.

http://www.anzstadium.com.au/index.aspx?link_id=1.115

The Stadium in its final configuration has a capacity of 82,000 for oval sports (AFL and cricket) and a capacity of 83,500 in rectangular mode (for rugby union, league and soccer) and the ability to switch between these modes regularly.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Off topic but Stadium Australia seems to be a white elephant. Just wondering, does it get govt. assistance to allow it to be viable?

White elephant indeed, but not for the government.

http://www.anzstadium.com.au/index.aspx?link_id=1.115

Construction

Construction of ANZ Stadium commenced in September 1996 and was completed in March 1999.

The Stadium project cost approximately $670 million. This includes $545 million in design and construction costs, $32m in surrounding precinct works and $93m in development and financing costs.

This $670 million covered the stage 1 Olympic configuration . A further $80 million was invested in the post-Games reconfiguration work involving the installation of an oval arena, moving stands on the east and west, roofing over the north and south stands and a new tier on the north stand.

The Stadium in its final configuration has a capacity of 82,000 for oval sports (AFL and cricket) and a capacity of 83,500 in rectangular mode (for rugby union, league and soccer) and the ability to switch between these modes regularly.

The majority of the construction costs of ANZ Stadium was funded through private debt or equity. Of the $670 million Stage 1 project costs, approximately $555m was funded through private debt or equity and the balance of $115m through the NSW Government.

Upon expiry of the lease in 2031, the Stadium and all property in it reverts to full ownership by the NSW Government, through the Sydney Olympic Park Authority.

I think the government paid the $80mil for reconfigeration costs as the figure of $190mil from the government sticks in my mind.

But

The Olympic Stadium in Sydney cost $670mil to build, which was completed in 1999 and $80mil to reconfigure which was done after the 2001 football season. The stadium was mainly financed by private debt and equity, $555mil, but mainly debt as the public float failed and only raised $110mil out of an expected $350mil. The government gave $115mil and I think the $80mil to reconfigure it. Anyway it was sold for $10mil in Nov 2006 to ANZ asset management who converted its $140mil loan to equity. Ie a $670mil stadium was effectively sold for $150mil. $500mil+ capital loss within a decade, let alone the operating losses. What a great investment!!

Debt sinks Stadium Australia

See ANZ Stadium Corporate Structure

 

[Subprime]

White elephant indeed, but not for the government.

http://www.anzstadium.com.au/index.aspx?link_id=1.115



I think the government paid the $80mil for reconfigeration costs as the figure of $190mil from the government sticks in my mind.

But

The Olympic Stadium in Sydney cost $670mil to build, which was completed in 1999 and $80mil to reconfigure which was done after the 2001 football season. The stadium was mainly financed by private debt and equity, $555mil, but mainly debt as the public float failed and only raised $110mil out of an expected $350mil. The government gave $115mil and I think the $80mil to reconfigure it. Anyway it was sold for $10mil in Nov 2006 to ANZ asset management who converted its $140mil loan to equity. Ie a $670mil stadium was effectively sold for $150mil. $500mil+ capital loss within a decade, let alone the operating losses. What a great investment!!

Debt sinks Stadium Australia

See ANZ Stadium Corporate Structure

I seem to recall the AFL put in a few million to ensure oval configuration, do you know how much?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I seem to recall the AFL put in a few million to ensure oval configuration, do you know how much?

I'm pretty sure the AFL paid $5mil but in 5 x $1mil instalments commencing in 2002.

 

[Subprime]

I'm pretty sure the AFL paid $5mil but in 5 x $1mil instalments commencing in 2002.

That has to be one of the best investments the AFL ever made.

 

[grayham]

especially as the afl got the money back within about 3 years via the swans bigger than expected crowds out there.

 

[cos789]

Pennant Hills is about 15-20 km west of Parramatta, about 6 or 7 km from Blacktown. Really, I think they are better off putting a team in the Hills areas, where there are no clear cut lines on what people support, and a burgeoning economy of young families lives.

Even though Australian Football is doing very well in those areas , with senior teams , good juniors and even a new ground , I don't think you could target such a narrow area to solely drive an AFL team .

.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

That has to be one of the best investments the AFL ever made.

Yep especially as by 2000 the swans after the 96 GF hadn't progressed passed the first week of the finals and the crowds had stabilised without really growing like they did in 96 and 97. There was great pressure on stadium owners to make it a rectangle and move the northern and southern ends in as close as they could with out losing many seats on the west and east grandstands.

The money that the AFL threw in committing to at least 3 games a year there and the fact that the NSW Cricket Association looked very seriously at taking One Day Internationals to the ground meant the owners went for an oval configuration rather than the smallest possible rectangle configuration possible. Both Rugby codes and soccer officials were disappointed with the final set up.

Having the Stadium has been great for the swans and cricket as it has forced the SCG Trust to do better deals for their tenants in the fear that they would move to the stadium. NSW Cricket Association CEO and ex Test Cricketer Dave Gilbert played a very smart negotiating game a few years ago playing off the 2 venues and in the end got $6mil cash out of the SCG Trust as well as improved facilities by committing the ODI to the SCG rather than the Stadium for the following 15 or 20 years.

 

[littleduck]

Yep especially as by 2000 the swans after the 96 GF hadn't progressed passed the first week of the finals and the crowds had stabilised without really growing like they did in 96 and 97. There was great pressure on stadium owners to make it a rectangle and move the northern and southern ends in as close as they could with out losing many seats on the west and east grandstands.

The money that the AFL threw in committing to at least 3 games a year there and the fact that the NSW Cricket Association looked very seriously at taking One Day Internationals to the ground meant the owners went for an oval configuration rather than the smallest possible rectangle configuration possible. Both Rugby codes and soccer officials were disappointed with the final set up.

Having the Stadium has been great for the swans and cricket as it has forced the SCG Trust to do better deals for their tenants in the fear that they would move to the stadium. NSW Cricket Association CEO and ex Test Cricketer Dave Gilbert played a very smart negotiating game a few years ago playing off the 2 venues and in the end got $6mil cash out of the SCG Trust as well as improved facilities by committing the ODI to the SCG rather than the Stadium for the following 15 or 20 years.

Homebush tried to cater for everybody, but ended up pleasing nobody except AFL in the sense that they can use it for blockbusters. Rugby Union only use it for rep games, Soccer only use it for rep games, Rugby League use it for rep games as well as NRL games.

NRL games at Homebush could have become the venue's bread and butter games, but they chose not to create the ideal rectangular football venue.

Instead, in their attempt to cater for all, they please nobody.

 

[greenhat]

It truly is a crap stadium in rectangle configuration. Devoid of any feel to it. I've been to a few NRL games there and honestly you get a lot more atsmosphere watching the game at a pub on TV than you do in the stadium.

 

[genghiskhan]

Homebush tried to cater for everybody, but ended up pleasing nobody except AFL in the sense that they can use it for blockbusters. Rugby Union only use it for rep games, Soccer only use it for rep games, Rugby League use it for rep games as well as NRL games.

NRL games at Homebush could have become the venue's bread and butter games, but they chose not to create the ideal rectangular football venue.

Instead, in their attempt to cater for all, they please nobody.

Not really. It was built for the Olympic games, and it served its purpose there. It is not easy to build a stadium for track and field and then easily convert it to an ideal stadium for soccer, or rugby. Australian football and cricket are about the only sports that are really suited to ex-Olympic stadiums.

I've never really liked the stadium no matter its configuration. It doesn't have the enclosed feel of the MCG or even the SCG. It also doesn't have a feeling of activity outside of it. No bars or people kicking a ball around.

 

[Ancient and Loyal]

Sort of. It is quite west, and the people out there think very differently to north shore people.

They think like Upper North Shore people, who are distinct to Lower North Shore (Your classic snob) and Middle North Shore (Ari Goldsmith from Praetoria) people.

It's not 'quite west' It's in line With Epping!

 

[Ancient and Loyal]

Pennant Hills is about 15-20 km west of Parramatta, about 6 or 7 km from Blacktown. Really, I think they are better off putting a team in the Hills areas, where there are no clear cut lines on what people support, and a burgeoning economy of young families lives.

Look at it on a map. it's well East of Parramatta and nowhere near Blacktown...As the Crow flies it's closer to Roseville than it is to Parramatta!

 

[ssfc0203]

Look at it on a map. it's well East of Parramatta and nowhere near Blacktown...As the Crow flies it's closer to Roseville than it is to Parramatta!

I live in Parramatta and am moving to Pennant Hills =/

Its just on the other side of OWD, but I guess it depends on which part you're talking about ? I'm talking about the part closest (and kind of adjoining) Kellyville.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Pennant Hills is about 15-20 km west of Parramatta, about 6 or 7 km from Blacktown. Really, I think they are better off putting a team in the Hills areas, where there are no clear cut lines on what people support, and a burgeoning economy of young families lives.

Putting a team in the Hills district makes sense from a demographic as well an Australian Football sense, as you have Pennant Hills and the old Baulkham Hills known as East Coast Eagles the last 6 or 7 years playing in the Sydney AFL and a few junior clubs in the area. However, once the Olympic precinct at Blacktown was given the go ahead and established in the late 90's this area was always going to be earmarked for a future sports precinct and the NSW govt and local govt was always going to offer $$ to attract sports teams/leagues/bodies there.

 

[ssfc0203]

It is a pretty general area too, so I guess they can all come there ?

Wherever the team is going to be, the little leagues in Western Sydney will all rally around it, so the AFL should include a grassroots program in parallel with the team itself.

 

[cos789]

NRL games at Homebush could have become the venue's bread and butter games, but they chose not to create the ideal rectangular football venue.

Instead, in their attempt to cater for all, they please nobody.

They catered for the Olympics .


You can't have an Olympic rectangular stadium.

 

[Professor Knowall]

While I'd agree that the people of Pennant Hills would be more impressionable, I'd say Blacktown would be better for the image of the AFL. Rougher area. It doesn't really matter. All people in west Sydney would be targeted and ultimately the team would be aiming to play at Stadium Australia.

Yeah, that sounds about right, though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of the Blacktown stadium being upgraded to a 'boutique' stadium staging H&A games at some future stage. I'm certain the AFL are after a different (or at least a wider) demographic spread for the new club compared to the middle class Swans (e.g. the 'bogan' element that genghiskhan talked about).

And apart from this, plus the obvious fact that the part Gov't funded Australian Football stadium is being built at Blacktown, not Pennant Hills or elsewhere, the other big factor is accessibility. But I'll leave that to the Sydney locals to comment on.

On the other debate here -

47,000 was the average for the home and away season at the MCG. Of 45 games at the ground 30 were less than half full.

Strange how 1908 forgot all about the 5 finals in 2007, which attracted 412,560 to the 'G at an average of 82,512. Thus, the real MCG total last year was 2,535,960 at an average of 50,719 per game. So far this year, its been 360,379 for 7 games - average 51,483. This weekend we have Coll v Carlton, after that ANZAC day, so that average will go right up.

(BTW - all this was prompted by LD's post that 99 out of 100 MCG crowds were more than half empty - then amended it to 95 out of 100).

 

[jackmac7]

littleDuck is fast losing his credibility if he ever had any. He's really searching now, getting desperate.