Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[IlovethePies]

when SHTF in Lebanon , I wonder how the Lebanese here in Australia will respond knowing the Australian govt has been arming Israel with weapons and funds

^This is why the Labor government is moving to illegalise opposition to genocide. It understands the outrage that will explode here in Australia, and is already installing Zionists into leading positions where they can promote the lie that opposition to genocide equates to anti-Semitism, and participate in repressing democratic rights:

Australia’s new “special envoy” on antisemitism supported Israel’s bombing of hospitals

Jillian Segal is a pro-Israeli lobbyist who has explicitly supported the fascistic actions of the Zionist regime, while demanding repression of those who oppose its war crimes.

www.wsws.org

Moreover, they have also moved to ban anti-Genocide protests from university campuses,

Zionist-led witch hunt threatens anti-genocide dissent and free speech at Australian universities

The proposed antisemitism inquiry would provide a legal mechanism for censoring, silencing and criminalising anti-genocide and anti-Zionist views on all university campuses.

www.wsws.org

 

[IlovethePies]

The Russian/Ukraine war is clearly about Russian imperial interests. They even say so themselves. Pretending otherwise is ignorant at best.

This is absolutely not true. The war in Ukraine is heavily backed by the US and NATO. They are not backing it for any huminitarian reasons, or for freedom and democracy. At the same time as they are providing longrange weaponry to Zelensky, they are supporting genocide in Gaza.

 

[Bloods86]

This is absolutely not true. The war in Ukraine is heavily backed by the US and NATO. They are not backing it for any huminitarian reasons, or for freedom and democracy. At the same time as they are providing longrange weaponry to Zelensky, they are supporting genocide in Gaza.

Trying to derail another thread with your conspiracies I see.

Even if what you say is true, this doesn't negate Russia's imperialist agenda.

All you can see is US proxies everywhere you look, it's quite the obsession.

Equating the defence of Ukraine with the horrific acts against Palestinians is ridiculous.

 

[sr36]

Why would the US fund so massively the Israeli war machine if it were not acting in US interests??

There is never just one interest group for any country and what hurts one interest group can massively help another. US Government aid isn't a cheque that be can spent anywhere. It's essentially vouchers that can only be spent at USA's incredibly powerful and wealthy Arms manufacturers..

 

[IlovethePies]

Trying to derail another thread with your conspiracies I see.

Even if what you say is true, this doesn't negate Russia's imperialist agenda.

All you can see is US proxies everywhere you look, it's quite the obsession.

Equating the defence of Ukraine with the horrific acts against Palestinians is ridiculous.

No conspiracies here, unless you regard an analysis of the actions of US imperialism and its imperialist allies as a "conspiracy theory""

 

[IlovethePies]

There is never just one interest group for any country and what hurts one interest group can massively help another. US Government aid isn't a cheque that be can spent anywhere. It's essentially vouchers that can only be spent at USA's incredibly powerful and wealthy Arms manufacturers..

The interests of US arms manufacturers indeed play a role in US foreign policy atm. But the overarching factor is the geopolitical interests of US imperialism. The arms manufacturers are happy with whomever they can sell arms to...the US administration decides who will receive the arms. And they decide on the basis of the geostrategic interests of US imperialism, which is now a declining economic power, and has turned to militarism as the only way for it to try to defend its erstwhile position as world econonic hegemon.

 

[Bloods86]

No conspiracies here, unless you regard an analysis of the actions of US imperialism and its imperialist allies as a "conspiracy theory""

I'd agree that Israel exhibits imperialism, Ukraine doesn't, that's laughable.

But still, because Israel is, doesn't mean the US wants them to. The current administration would really prefer Israel cools its jets. I'm sure you'll pretend not to understand why Israel receives the support it does though, outside of "US imperialism".

 

[IlovethePies]

I'd agree that Israel exhibits imperialism, Ukraine doesn't, that's laughable.

But still, because Israel is, doesn't mean the US wants them to. The current administration would really prefer Israel cools its jets. I'm sure you'll pretend not to understand why Israel receives the support it does though, outside of "US imperialism".

Imperialism has a scientific meaning, it is not a word to be lightly thrown around.
Imperialism, in the proper scientific definition, refers to the nations during the mid to late 1800's and early 1900's developed the wealth, industrial base and financial power to start colonising the rest of the world and amassing further superprofits in this process. The imperialist powers historically dominated the world financial and industrial economy. These nations were: US, Britain, Germany, France, Japan, (to a lesser extent, Italy).

Russia was never an imperialist power. Dominated by Tsarism, it had a much more backward economy than the nations of Western Europe and the US. However, British (mainly, I believe, but maybe from other sources such as US) poured into Russia and made possible a very rapid and gigantic industrialisation. This in turn was what created a powerful concentration of the proletariat in key urban centres.

However, Russia never exercised the same kind of global economic dominance in world economic affairs as did the imperialist nations. Even the Soviet Union, despite the enormous economic expansion made possible by the nationalised property relations, never could exercise or overcome the economic domination of global imperialism. This in the end was the fundamental reason why the Stalinists liquidated the Soviet Union in order to impose capitalism and entrench their priviliges as owners of property (which they were not before under the former nationalised property system).

And today, likewise, Russia does not occupy a dominant position in global economy. If it did, it would retaliate against the US and its NATO allies with financial sanctions. But it cannot because the imperialists are the ones who control global finance, it is German and US banks that can freeze Russian assets, and not vice verca.

Nor does the Russian invasion of Ukraine bear any resemblance to an imperialist war of conquest. Russian military actions bear no resemblance to the actions of the IDF in Gaza, nor to those of the wehrmacht during Operation Barbarossa. Russian forces are not motoring through Ukraine and threatening to take over Poland, Latvia, Estonia etc...and nor does Putin have any intention of such an insane plan.

Israel is not an imperialist nation in the same historical sense as the US, and the other Western European imperialist governments. It is more apt to describe it as an outgrowth, or a base, for imperialist expansion and control of the Middle East. The history of the state of Israel shows quite clearly that as soon as the British relinquished their influence in the middle east, the US filled the vacuum and became the imperialist backers of the Zionist state. As Biden himself during the 80's, if Israel did not exist, we would have to invent it.

 

[Bloods86]

Imperialism has a scientific meaning, it is not a word to be lightly thrown around.
Imperialism, in the proper scientific definition, refers to the nations during the mid to late 1800's and early 1900's developed the wealth, industrial base and financial power to start colonising the rest of the world and amassing further superprofits in this process. The imperialist powers historically dominated the world financial and industrial economy. These nations were: US, Britain, Germany, France, Japan, (to a lesser extent, Italy).

Russia was never an imperialist power. Dominated by Tsarism, it had a much more backward economy than the nations of Western Europe and the US. However, British (mainly, I believe, but maybe from other sources such as US) poured into Russia and made possible a very rapid and gigantic industrialisation. This in turn was what created a powerful concentration of the proletariat in key urban centres.

However, Russia never exercised the same kind of global economic dominance in world economic affairs as did the imperialist nations.

And today, likewise, Russia does not occupy a dominant position in global economy. If it did, it would retaliate against the US and its NATO allies with financial sanctions. But it cannot because the imperialists are the ones who control global finance, it is German and US banks that can freeze Russian assets, and not vice verca.

Nor does the Russian invasion of Ukraine bear any resemblance to an imperialist war of conquest. Russian military actions bear no resemblance to the actions of the IDF in Gaza, nor to those of the wehrmacht during Operation Barbarossa. Russian forces are not motoring through Ukraine and threatening to take over Poland, Latvia, Estonia etc...and nor does Putin have any intention of such an insane plan.

Israel is not an imperialist nation in the same historical sense as the US, and the other Western European imperialist governments. It is more apt to describe it as an outgrowth, or a base, for imperialist expansion and control of the Middle East. The history of the state of Israel shows quite clearly that as soon as the British relinquished their influence in the middle east, the US filled the vacuum and became the imperialist backers of the Zionist state. As Biden himself during the 80's, if Israel did not exist, we would have to invent it.

Yes yes we know, you cherry pick definitions to suit and you dismiss intent/actions in favour of outcomes where it suits.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes yes we know, you cherry pick definitions to suit.

Did you actually read what I wrote? What did I cherry pick? Be specific.

 

[Bloods86]

Did you actually read what I wrote? What did I cherry pick? Be specific.

Yes, given some of it was copy-pasted (again) from the Ukraine threads, I've had to read through multiple times now, your specially carved out definition (so as to avoid including countries you seem overly charitable to, in comparison to the US and modern allies).

 

[IlovethePies]

Yes, given some of it was copy-pasted (again) from the Ukraine threads, I've had to read through your specially carved out definition (so as to avoid including countries you seem overly charitable to, in comparison to the US and modern allies).

...um, nothing was copy and pasted. Just sat down here and typed it up in about 5 minutes extemporaneously. Maybe that is proof of the consistency of my analysis.

 

[Bloods86]

...um, nothing was copy and pasted. Just sat down here and typed it up in about 5 minutes extemporaneously. Maybe that is proof of the consistency of my analysis.

"Analysis" is a stretch.

Most would see the invasion, occupation, transfer of resources and people, as well as ultimate incorporation of captured territory into the larger, expanding power as a form of imperialism. Or interference and intimidation in order to directly and indirectly influence the actions of a smaller neighbour, to the economic and political benefit of the larger power.

Though obviously your particular view wouldn't, and yes there is more than one view, there is no settled scientific definition. Unless it was convenient to be used against particular nations, then you could find room to include these factors.

Anyway, you can derail the thread more if you want to, but I'm out.

 

[Saint]

If you think that Israel is acting against US interests, it is you who is not viewing reality clearly.

Why would the US fund so massively the Israeli war machine if it were not acting in US interests??

The Israeli genocide in Gaza, and the open support of it by all imperialist governments - including the Albanese government - cannot be explained outside of understanding its connection with the war that the US is also funding in Ukraine, and the ongoing militarisation of northern Australia and the participation of Australian military forces in military excursions in collaboration with US forces aimed at provoking responses from China.

Top Australian, Japanese ministers prepare for war against China

The joint communiqué reveals the advanced preparations not just involving these two key American military allies, but throughout the Indo-Pacific, for a US-led war against China.

www.wsws.org

Because the Israeli Govt and lobby holds the parties hostage. It's the same reason they know gun laws are killing them, but the NRA are their other biggest donors.

Opposing Israel is like opposing the NRA. They're nutcases, but they're getting them elected and without them they might lose.

It's the same reason the Albanese Govt supports it. Australia has far more interests in all of Israel's neighbours than Israel. The only reason is disproportionate influence.

 

[IlovethePies]

"Analysis" is a stretch.

Most would see the invasion, occupation, transfer of resources and people, as well as ultimate incorporation of captured territory into the larger, expanding power as a form of imperialism. Or interference and intimidation in order to directly and indirectly influence the actions of a smaller neighbour, to the economic and political benefit of the larger power.

Though obviously your particular view wouldn't, and yes there is more than one view, there is no settled scientific definition. Unless it was convenient to be used against particular nations, then you could find room to include these factors.

Anyway, you can derail the thread more if you want to, but I'm out.

How is offering an alternative perspective on events "derailing the thread"? It seems like your vision of a political thread resembles more that of an echo chamber.

 

[Saint]

Archbishop of Canterbury is on the side of the Palestinians. I wonder if he'll be accused of supporting terrorism or hating Jews. Probably both.

The tide is turning in the UK. The US is fast losing allies in their defence of the indefensible.

 

[Bloods86]

How is offering an alternative perspective on events "derailing the thread"? It seems like your vision of a political thread resembles more that of an echo chamber.

Because you're trying to bring in a bunch of other unrelated conflicts as topics of discussion, which then triggers arguments over your select definition of imperialism.

Also, I hardly think my views on this conflict / horrific persecution and punishment against mostly Palestinians, would result in just an echo...

If you don't like pushback, that's not my fault.

 

[IlovethePies]

Because you're trying to bring in a bunch of other unrelated conflicts as topics of discussion, which then triggers arguments over your select definition of imperialism.

Also, I hardly think my views on this conflict / horrific persecution and punishment against mostly Palestinians, would result in just an echo...

But that is the whole point...
you believe they are disconnected...but what if they aren't.
If my view is correct, then by mentioning other conflicts, I am not derailing the thread.
I am still ensuring that the bulk of my post refers to the topic of the thread itself, because BF threads do seem to require a degree of compartmentalisation.
Your view of a thread is that it must abide by what you, you Bloods86, deem to be relevant.
In that view, you will win more support than I (in this sense, your view is that of an echo chamber).
That is because I am saying something radically different.
But unless you think democratic norms are out the window, saying something that opposes the general consensus should not be a reason to censure it, by accusing me of derailing the thread.

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Archbishop of Canterbury is on the side of the Palestinians. I wonder if he'll be accused of supporting terrorism or hating Jews. Probably both.

The tide is turning in the UK. The US is fast losing allies in their defence of the indefensible.

If you read the comments it doesn't seem like many are supporting him

 

[Sarcoidevo]

But that is the whole point...
you believe they are disconnected...but what if they aren't.
If my view is correct, then by mentioning other conflicts, I am not derailing the thread.
I am still ensuring that the bulk of my post refers to the topic of the thread itself, because BF threads do seem to require a degree of compartmentalisation.
Your view of a thread is that it must abide by what you, you Bloods86, deem to be relevant.
In that view, you will win more support than I (in this sense, your view is that of an echo chamber).
That is because I am saying something radically different.
But unless you think democratic norms are out the window, saying something that opposes the general consensus should not be a reason to censure it, by accusing me of derailing the thread.

Good luck with your revolution .... but it ain't gunna happen

 

[IlovethePies]

Good luck with your revolution .... but it ain't gunna happen

...neither you nor i owns a crystal ball....

 

[Bloods86]

But that is the whole point...
you believe they are disconnected...but what if they aren't.
If my view is correct, then by mentioning other conflicts, I am not derailing the thread.
I am still ensuring that the bulk of my post refers to the topic of the thread itself, because BF threads do seem to require a degree of compartmentalisation.
Your view of a thread is that it must abide by what you, you Bloods86, deem to be relevant.
In that view, you will win more support than I (in this sense, your view is that of an echo chamber).
That is because I am saying something radically different.
But unless you think democratic norms are out the window, saying something that opposes the general consensus should not be a reason to censure it, by accusing me of derailing the thread.

I mean I actually said you could keep going if you wanted to, hardly censuring...

Not up to me anyway, but good luck with that.

 

[IlovethePies]

I mean I actually said you could keep going if you wanted to, hardly censuring...

Not up to me anyway, but good luck with that.

Look mate, when you accused me of derailing the thread, that is an open invitation for censorship.
Words have consequences in general.
TBH, I think if it had been up to you, you would have used that as a pretext to ban me from posting.
I am willing to take on your points of disagreement and explain why I think my view is correct, and you are welcome to do the same to me.

 

[Saint]

If you read the comments it doesn't seem like many are supporting him

Eventually, like Iraq and Vietnam, when everyone realises what a travesty the Israeli Genocide is, everyone will pretend they were misled, or didn't really support it and shrink into their holes.

Most people who supported (and it was a majority of people) the Vietnam War would never admit it now. If it weren't for the full-throated media support in the UK, US and Australia, there wouldn't be anywhere near the current levels of support.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

If you read the comments it doesn't seem like many are supporting him

Oh that's the zionist rent a crowd, you need to keep scrolling down past the people that pay for blue check.