Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Blue1980]

He (Bibi) is in a no win situation
Trying to placate the far right lunatics, whilst being seen to be a defender of his people.
If he gets overthrown, things could get much worse.
Some are openly calling for the use of nukes.

He’s pretty much just a slightly less nutty face for the far right extremists, he pretty much is one himself.

 

[Blue1980]

Having a genocide (the Holocaust) committed against your people doesn't give you carte blanche to commit another genocide later. In fact, nothing gives you permission to do that, ever. There is no defence.

Apparently it’s the way now. Palestinians will be able to for the next few generations to someone else soon enough apparently.

 

[Blue1980]

People like the disgrace of a human being Peter Dutton can window-dress all they like. But their unqualified support for the Netanyahu government boils down to:

1. They want to be US lapdogs
2. They want to exploit human suffering for domestic political gain
3. They believe 1,200 Israeli lives are worth 40,000 Palestinian lives.

Israeli donor money, Murdoch press etc

 

[Blue1980]

You keep both-sidesing everything, but go quiet when it's pointed out that one side is treated differently than the other in the western media and by western Governments.

Some people are so unwilling to admit their biases that they're either in denial or genuinely can't see it, when to me it is as clear as day.

Why is anyone claiming to be “on both sides” or above the frey etc always in favour of the right wing position when it comes down to it?

Why do these people cloak their beliefs? To fool people? Because they are ashamed?

 

[Not Important]

Can you provide evidence that they are a known Hamas supporter?

thanks for exposing that individual.

someone who is, for all intents and purposes, an excuser for the brutal, iniquitous, shameful israel government and who makes a statement which, when challenged, he can’t support. classic whataboutism.

even more pathetic is that an unarmed elderly man acting in an unthreatening manner was allegedly beaten to death in an act that could best be described as thuggery and that isn't the point in that posters warped world.

people like that poster are the problem, not the solution.

 

[Blue1980]

Yeah right facing extinction you know Israel have 90 nuclear war heads, they will still be there long after we are gone, fair to say they’re faced more adversity than what’s going on now and when i look at scene all over the world at Palestinian rallies with signs “ kill the jews” feels like I’ve be transported back to the 1930’s.

You just follow popular media narrative, might is right.

You’d have been saying the Jews deserved their treatment in the 30s as much of the power classes were at the time.

 

[Blue1980]

It really is one solution, though. Like, every Palestinian man woman and child could drink poison and die tomorrow and that would delight Israel even more than committing genocide themselves.

It would indeed be one solution. a Final Solution, even. A sarcastic solution definitely. Doesn't mean it's a fair solution, nor a right one nor a correct one, but it IS a solution.

I have a similar quandary with the United States. I despise them. I despise their foreign policy. I loathe Donald Trump and American Conservatism. Yet I WANT them to win the next election. It will all but guarantee a Second U.S Civil War and an absolute blunting of malignant U.S influence on the world as it takes to the task of tearing itself apart and eating itself alive. And no nation deserves that fate more than the United States.

It's not a fair solution, nor a right one nor even a correct one. Scores of innocents will perish. Yet here I am. Cynical and sarcastic and a million miles away from harm.

Sometimes our frustration gives voice to these things. We can't absolve and we can't influence and so we go a bit absurd. Extremes seem funny. With brute honesty I can say that directly. Extremes seem funny.

The world bending down to Israel and genociding themselves leaving the Jews supreme, and alone, on the planet - I can see the funny side.

A Second U.S Civil War and all the rampant murder that it would entail - I can see the funny side.

But only because I am a frustrated human who has tried nothing and is now all out of ideas.

While I can respect the accelerationist thought re Trump I don’t think it will play out in a way that won’t have blowback on the rest of the world.

I hope that if trump gets in it leads to a breaking up of the US so diminishing their absolute power, that is a best case scenario.

 

[Saint]

You just follow popular media narrative, might is right.

You’d have been saying the Jews deserved their treatment in the 30s as much of the power classes were at the time.

That's the bit I find so hard to comprehend. Surely if you think the Nazi Genocide of Jews was wrong (beginning well before the war with ghetto-isation and dehumanisation) how do you not find the apartheid, dehumanisation and now genocide of Palestinians just as bad.

If you support the right of the state of Israel to exist, how do people not support the right of the Palestinian state to exist. It baffles me. The only answer I can come up with is racism. White people deserve a state in the Middle East, but not darker skinned people.

 

[Blue1980]

thanks for exposing that individual.

someone who is, for all intents and purposes, an excuser for the brutal, iniquitous, shameful israel government and who makes a statement which, when challenged, he can’t support. classic whataboutism.

even more pathetic is that an unarmed elderly man acting in an unthreatening manner was allegedly beaten to death in an act that could best be described as thuggery and that isn't the point in that posters warped world.

people like that poster are the problem, not the solution.

They’re just disingenuous and bitter. Typical of many people who fall down into extreme conservatism, it’s all grievance and anger at the other “side”.

It’s also projection, they don’t give a shit and just hate the “woke” or “the left” so assume us who do care are just virtue signalling as they don’t have the capacity to give a shit about anything now immediately in their circle.

 

[sherb]

Can you provide evidence that they are a known Hamas supporter?

Anyone who dares criticize Israel is a Hamas supporter in that poster's world.

 

[sherb]

That's the bit I find so hard to comprehend. Surely if you think the Nazi Genocide of Jews was wrong (beginning well before the war with ghetto-isation and dehumanisation) how do you not find the apartheid, dehumanisation and now genocide of Palestinians just as bad.

I'm the same.
I'm far from an expert on Israel, but I have never been able to understand how a people so historically oppressed can then turn around and oppress others.
Or how people can support it.
I still don't get it.

 

[Rob R]

That's the bit I find so hard to comprehend. Surely if you think the Nazi Genocide of Jews was wrong (beginning well before the war with ghetto-isation and dehumanisation) how do you not find the apartheid, dehumanisation and now genocide of Palestinians just as bad.

If you support the right of the state of Israel to exist, how do people not support the right of the Palestinian state to exist. It baffles me. The only answer I can come up with is racism. White people deserve a state in the Middle East, but not darker skinned people.

Yet less than 30% of Israeli Jews are white, most look very much similar to their neighbours.

I tend to agree with the posters who put down the lack of support to a few factors:

1) People are too focussed on their current situation ie. cost of living to care about foreigners

2) The current problem was sparked by a highly visible terrorist attack on innocent civilians unlike the Ukraine. Whilst awareness of the horrors occurring since will draw some sympathy - Oct 7 and the decades of terrorism committed in the name of Palestine (which almost all Palestinians would oppose) minimise this especially when there is some truth to Israel's claims that Hamas is hiding among civilians.

Nothing excuses the over reaction which is just playing into Hamass hands and is not justified but most people simply are not going to care enough to change votes.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[sherb]

Nothing excuses the over reaction which is just playing into Hamass hands and is not justified but most people simply are not going to care enough to change votes.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I'll be changing my vote.

 

[carltonchelsea]

Is John Winston Howard, George W Bush and Tony Blair war criminals as well? Thet sent troops to invade Iraq to topple Saddam Hussein

Begging the question
But yes, yes they are!

 

[Rob R]

I'll be changing my vote.

Good on you for voting in line with your principles.

On SM-A136B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Is there any other Neil?

Yes, that's him.

Neil Sedaka?

 

[Suspense]

Many generally accepted views are bullshit when it comes to Palestine and Israel. I will go with what the Arab League said and did over your certainty.

So your argument (which runs contrary to the generally accepted scholarly view) that they didn't intend to prevent a Israeli state simply amounts to 'well thats wot I think'? hahah ok

Sorry, a wikipedia link for Dhimmi is not evidence of the treatment of Jews in the Levant in the early 20th century, when the Ottomans made multiple declarations ending this practice in the early 1800s. Appeals to whataboutism? OK.

While legal reforms aimed at equality were passed, the implementation was often uneven, and societal attitudes toward dhimmis changed little. Discrimination in everyday life continued, particularly in areas like taxation, military service, and access to certain official positions.
Braude, B. (Ed.). (1982). Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Empire. Holmes & Meier.

Although the Ottoman reforms formally granted equality, in practice, non-Muslims continued to face restrictions, especially in rural and conservative areas. Social prejudice and deeply entrenched societal norms meant that Christians and Jews were often still regarded as outsiders, especially in legal matters or communal representation.
Lewis, B. (1984). The Jews of Islam. Princeton University Press.

While Istanbul and some cosmopolitan cities saw more egalitarian policies, in the provinces, many of the old discriminatory practices, such as differential taxation and limited access to government positions, continued.
Davison, R. H. (1963). Reform in the Ottoman Empire, 1856–1876. Princeton University Press.

While reforms allowed non-Muslims into the military and civil service, many senior roles remained out of reach for them due to both societal prejudice and institutional resistance.
Shaw, S. J. (1976). History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Vol. 1). Cambridge University Press.

While the Ottoman government attempted to impose legal equality, social hierarchies persisted, particularly in conservative regions where religious identity remained a key marker of social status.
Masters, B. (2001). Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Arab World: The Roots of Sectarianism. Cambridge University Press.

Think whatever you want - the historical documented facts are quite clear on the matter.

You're revelling a little bit there.

I'm not as confident in Israel's eternity as I would have been 12 months ago.

Not revealing anything - simply stating that the refusal of Palestinians to compromise, in preference to extremist violence, continues to contribute to untold suffering.

 

[Suspense]

And Palestinians lived there before, and through both.

Not as a Palestinian Arab majority though - in the 7th century it was predominantly a Byzantine Christian demographic with a Jewish minority. There were Arab tribes in the region but they were a small minority.

Once control of the lands fell to the Arab Islamic invaders, more Arabs begun to settle in the region. Demographics shifted over centuries to an Arab Islamic majority as the existing population underwent a process of Arabisation through intermarriage with the local population as well as Islamisation through a social, economic, and legal system that imposed legal and social inequality and incentivised conversion to Islam.

 

[Suspense]

IF the logic of the Jews being forced out of Europe means they get their own state, surely the logic of the people they displaced is that they get their own state in what's left? Israel are denying them this right. It's the zenith of hypocrisy. The more Israel undermine Palestine, the more people realise they're undermining the same foundations on which the State of Israel was born.

It's verboten to say the State of Israel shouldn't exist. But the state of Israel's legislative position is that the State of Palestine shouldn't exist and everyone just pretends it's not hypocrisy.

State for me, but not for thee.
Never Again for me, but alright if committed by me.

I completely agree. My comment was simply that the Allies had the right to pursue the creation of a sovereign Israeli state at the time - as much as it contradicted their even their own principles at the time.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

That's the bit I find so hard to comprehend. Surely if you think the Nazi Genocide of Jews was wrong (beginning well before the war with ghetto-isation and dehumanisation) how do you not find the apartheid, dehumanisation and now genocide of Palestinians just as bad.

If you support the right of the state of Israel to exist, how do people not support the right of the Palestinian state to exist. It baffles me. The only answer I can come up with is racism. White people deserve a state in the Middle East, but not darker skinned people.

Been thinking about this post of yours for a while.
IMO racism is not the answer.

It’s becoming increasingly difficult to have a discussion about anything without becoming branded as a racist, Zionist, Islamophobe etc
It’s like people have to pick a side.

The thread title refers to what’s happened since Oct 7, yet it’s been railroaded to discussing what happened decades/ centuries ago and events leading up to Oct 7, and trying to aportion blame.
If we want to go back that far, let’s do it, and start a new thread.

From my point of view starting at Oct 7, what Hamas did is disgusting, unforgivable, ****ing sick….and I don’t for one minute blame Israel for their initial response.

I now believe Israel have gone too far and condemn their continued attacks on “innocent “ civilians.
I struggle to see how Gaza will ever be rebuilt and its distressing.

However I do not blame Israel for targeting Hamas/Hezbollah/Houti etc
What were they supposed to do?

I don’t have a problem with Muslims or Islam, but I have a problem with Islamists/Islamism….there is a distinction.

In a nutshell I’m very confused and a little distressed about how I should feel.
It’s an appalling situation all round.

 

[QuietB]

People like the disgrace of a human being Peter Dutton can window-dress all they like. But their unqualified support for the Netanyahu government boils down to:

1. They want to be US lapdogs
2. They want to exploit human suffering for domestic political gain
3. They believe 1,200 Israeli lives are worth 40,000 Palestinian lives.

At his core Dutton is a racist. Israel is white, Palestine is not.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Not as a Palestinian Arab majority though - in the 7th century it was predominantly a Byzantine Christian demographic with a Jewish minority. There were Arab tribes in the region but they were a small minority.

Once control of the lands fell to the Arab Islamic invaders, more Arabs begun to settle in the region. Demographics shifted over centuries to an Arab Islamic majority as the existing population underwent a process of Arabisation through intermarriage with the local population as well as Islamisation through a social, economic, and legal system that imposed legal and social inequality and incentivised conversion to Islam.

What difference does it make if they were Arab at that time or not? Because they now speak Arabic and follow Islam, they dont' deserve to live in the land of their ancestors?

Why do you make a distinction?

 

[ferball]

I'm the same.
I'm far from an expert on Israel, but I have never been able to understand how a people so historically oppressed can then turn around and oppress others.
Or how people can support it.
I still don't get it.

Trauma is an intergenerational problem and it manifests itself in different ways.

And while so many Jewish people who say "Never Again" mean "end all oppression" there would be others who think "never again ... will anyone do that to us" and be prepared to do whatever it takes in terms of violence to never be in that situation again.

I can understand it but I hope I never react that way if I'm in that position.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

It really is one solution, though. Like, every Palestinian man woman and child could drink poison and die tomorrow and that would delight Israel even more than committing genocide themselves.

It would indeed be one solution. a Final Solution, even. A sarcastic solution definitely. Doesn't mean it's a fair solution, nor a right one nor a correct one, but it IS a solution.

I have a similar quandary with the United States. I despise them. I despise their foreign policy. I loathe Donald Trump and American Conservatism. Yet I WANT them to win the next election. It will all but guarantee a Second U.S Civil War and an absolute blunting of malignant U.S influence on the world as it takes to the task of tearing itself apart and eating itself alive. And no nation deserves that fate more than the United States.

It's not a fair solution, nor a right one nor even a correct one. Scores of innocents will perish. Yet here I am. Cynical and sarcastic and a million miles away from harm.

Sometimes our frustration gives voice to these things. We can't absolve and we can't influence and so we go a bit absurd. Extremes seem funny. With brute honesty I can say that directly. Extremes seem funny.

The world bending down to Israel and genociding themselves leaving the Jews supreme, and alone, on the planet - I can see the funny side.

A Second U.S Civil War and all the rampant murder that it would entail - I can see the funny side.

But only because I am a frustrated human who has tried nothing and is now all out of ideas.

That's all fine, but I am going to laugh at someone who presents that solution.

 

[ferball]

Not revealing anything - simply stating that the refusal of Palestinians to compromise, in preference to extremist violence, continues to contribute to untold suffering.

This is a lie.

You're claiming every Palestinian is basically a terrorist and using it as a justification for the extreme, genocidal violence that's been going on for over a year (and for decades at a lower intensity.) Obviously the PA compromised otherwise there would be extreme violence in the West Bank in response to the behaviour of the Israeli settlers.

You've just said "all Palestinians are blah blah blah".

Its no different to the lies Nazis and other antisemites spread about Jewish people when they say/said "all Jews are blah blah blah".

This is the sort of thinking that enables genocide.