Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Lunchlady Doris]

My point was not debating the tragedy of 40k lives. It’s awful. It’s hideous.

I was just raising the point for discussion, because we throw the word ‘genocide’ around quite casually, as well as comparisons to Hitlers genocide. I’m not convinced either way at this point tbh that doesn’t make it any less tragic or damming of Bibi.

If the holocaust/hitler is the benchmark as many sympathetic to the Palestinian cause have expressed in here…..over 60% of the entire Jewish population was killed, less than 1/3 of European Jews survived and 1.7% of Europes entire total population was wiped out.

To reach these heights the Israeli government would be looking at the extermination of about 1.3 million Gazan Palestinians.

I’m not suggesting that genocide only occurs at this severity, however whilst people continue to equivocate the two, it’s worth analysing the data.

There’s no need to resort to personal attacks mate. It’s doesn’t help, but I get why you are angry.

Of course but I’m interested at what point it becomes genocide.
Given the stated intent of Hamas and if capable what they would do to Israel, have they also committed an act of genocide?

There is no body count or death % required for this to be a genoicde. Insane thinking.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It's been posted before, but here's the report by the UN Special Rapporteur - Anatomy of a Genocide

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/

 

[sr36]

I'd rather accuse them of genocide and it not be, than ignore it only to find out that it is when it's too late.

It doesn't really matter. It's the same hideous thing that it is whether it's categorised as genocide or not.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Saint]

The absolute irony of the world cheering for the death of Sinwar but clutching pearls over the attack on Netanyahu.

People saying that the successor to Netanyahu might be worse than Bibi's genocidal vengeance, as if the successor to Sinwar is going to be a Gandhi-like figure who just happened to make it to the top of a blood-soaked terror organisation.

The ethnic cleansing of Northern Gaza specifically but also the rest of Gaza and southern Lebanon is part of the Genocide convention.

It's definitely ethnic cleansing and maybe ethnocide, both of which are a form of genocide.

 

[Saint]

Some background and analysis from Al Jazeera.

“The underlying grievances [of Palestinians] are not being addressed … therefore the resistance to Israeli dispossession will continue,” Rahman told Al Jazeera.

“It’s as simple as that. That’s the simple equation.”

Why Netanyahu won’t let Israel stop fighting after killing Hamas’s Sinwar

The Israeli PM has seized every opportunity to expand the fighting, and to sink any possible ceasefires.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Saint]

Meanwhile, most Israelis want a peace deal to release hostages and withdraw from Gaza.

The poll also explored public opinion on the continuation of the war in Gaza. A majority (52%) favored pursuing a deal for the release of hostages that would involve withdrawing from Gaza and ending the war, while 41% supported continuing the war with full force.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s handling of the war received an average rating of 5.5 out of 10 from respondents.

Likud emerges as largest party in new Channel 13 poll, public split on Gaza war

Additionally, the majority of the public supports a hostage deal instead of a continuation of the war in Gaza.

www.jpost.com

 

[HirdsTheWord]

It's definitely ethnic cleansing and maybe ethnocide, both of which are a form of genocide.

dont think that is technically correct as a matter of definition.

Genocide and Ethnic cleansing are two separate things.

Genocide is a war crime, and resolves entirely around proving intent, Genocide has clear 5 item criteria set out in 1948.....Ethnic cleansing is not a war crime and refers to the expulsion of people from an area.

Genocide is the below, with the intent to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm
3. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births
5. Forcibly transferring children

Expulsion of people from an area, is not one of the 5 things that determines Genocide.

In terms of the 5x items, Israel has ticked them, though proving their intent is almost impossible - so doubt a genocide charge will ever be formally laid.

 

[Saint]

I do find it rich that the Israeli state has been founded because of the history of pogroms against Jews, which they've gone on to implement on their very first neighbour.

If anyone is de-legitimising the state of Israel, it's Israel. We're a whisker away from them calling themselves anti-semites.

 

[sr36]

dont think that is technically correct as a matter of definition.

Genocide and Ethnic cleansing are two separate things.

Genocide is a war crime, and resolves entirely around proving intent, Genocide has clear 5 item criteria set out in 1948.....Ethnic cleansing is not a war crime and refers to the expulsion of people from an area.

Genocide is the below, with the intent to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group

1. Killing members of the group
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm
3. Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the group’s physical destruction in whole or in part
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births
5. Forcibly transferring children

Expulsion of people from an area, is not one of the 5 things that determines Genocide.

In terms of the 5x items, Israel has ticked them, though proving their intent is almost impossible - so doubt a genocide charge will ever be formally laid.

That's my view too, and frankly I think it's a bit silly to debate it now, as it's a debate that Israel could win. Better to just condemn the atrocities as atrocities - that's a debate that Israel can't win.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

proving their intent is almost impossible - so doubt a genocide charge will ever be formally laid.

Except we have statement after statement from Israeli leadership as well as the troops carrying it out.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Except we have statement after statement from Israeli leadership as well as the troops carrying it out.

It’s bizarre that this needs to be explained on a daily basis.

Goldfish syndrome.

 

[Chief]

In terms of the 5x items, Israel has ticked them, though proving their intent is almost impossible

They have leaders stating that is their aim.

In any case, there are many many war crimes documented even if people squib on calling it genocide.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

They have leaders stating that is their aim.

In any case, there are many many war crimes documented even if people squib on calling it genocide.

I have personally not seen an Israel leader state that their aim is to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group.

Thats not to say they dont exist though.

Highly doubt a genocide charge will ever be laid, even though it should be investigated.

 

[Chief]

I have not seen an Israel leader state that their aim is to destroy an ethnic, national, racial or religious group.

You don't even have to look very hard to find these quotes.

Unless you're doing the "what they ACTUALLY said was that the only good Arab is a dead Arab, which is not a genocidal statement about Palestinians" type of thing.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

You don't even have to look very hard to find these quotes.

Unless you're doing the "what they ACTUALLY said was that the only good Arab is a dead Arab, which is not a genocidal statement about Palestinians" type of thing.

No. that's not what i said.

Some Israeli official nutcase said previously they should nuke gaza, so yes that is a genocidal statement. Not genocide itself.

 

[peetoo]

Bolt likening ny’u to Churchill. Can’t work out if that’s praise or critique.

Had to laugh him glossing over thousands of civilian Palestinian death and destruction, but a sliver of compassion for the ‘poor Palestinian’ who was the only death from irans missiles.

Harden up Andrew, Palestinian = terrorist, potentia terrorist or producer of terrorist offspring.? Right?

And peace without justice? That’s not neccesarily peace.

 

[Not Important]

louise is a national treasure.

 

[Not Important]

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

No. that's not what i said.

Some Israeli official nutcase said previously they should nuke gaza, so yes that is a genocidal statement. Not genocide itself.

Combine those statements with massive civilian casualties, prevention of aid, deliberate destruction of medical and civilan infrastructure for no military purpose, and you have a genocide.

You claimed the problem was proving intent. Genocidal statements by Israeli ministers and defence officials is not enough? How do you suppose to prove intent otherwise?

 

[Not Important]

Combine those statements with massive civilian casualties, prevention of aid, deliberate destruction of medical and civilan infrastructure for no military purpose, and you have a genocide.

the poster is an apologist for the zionist terrorism, l.d.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

the poster is an apologist for the zionist terrorism, l.d.

That's why I want to ask them what it would take to prove a modern day genocide.

It's no good being in an echo chamber and patting each other on the back.

These are the people we need to understand.

 

[Not Important]

easy question to answer.

 

[Markfs]

From the latest IQ test

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Combine those statements with massive civilian casualties, prevention of aid, deliberate destruction of medical and civilan infrastructure for no military purpose, and you have a genocide.

You claimed the problem was proving intent. Genocidal statements by Israeli ministers and defence officials is not enough? How do you suppose to prove intent otherwise?

Saying those things on a footy forum is one thing. Genocide isn't some wish washy statement. it is a crime, like anything else it needs to be proven by law. Proving it in a court of law is another - that's why i think it's incredibly hard to prove intent.

You say they deliberate targeted medical and civilian' infrastructure. OK how do you know it was deliberate and intentional in line with the genocide convention?

Saying its genocide, and proving its genocide, are two incredibly different things - that's all I'm suggesting. Thats why i find it highly unlikely a genocide charge will be laid. Not saying it's impossible though. Israel should be investigated to a high level for their actions.

How do you prove genocide? Have absolutely no idea but imagine it would be incredibly hard. The last proven genocide (i think) was the Rohingya genocide in 2017? There is nothing greyer than the law of war.