Jacobs & Walker Trade Discussion - Part 2

[macca23]

At our club jerks like Grigg are as rare as albino gorrillas (or Mathey Knights whatever u prefer)

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read this.

Mate, you had the largest albino Gorilla of all time on your list for around 10 years and put up with him assaulting people when representing his country, urinating in public, etc etc etc.

The rest of your post was okay, but you must suffer from dementia to forget the length of time that Fevola was tolerated on your list.

 

[barrel47]

Look at the more recent example of Mumford/Warnock as more accurate reflections of Jacobs worth.

OK.

Shane Mumford
Born: 05-Jul-1986 (Debut:21y 295d Last:24y 68d)
200 cm 102 kg
Traded for Pick 28 when aged 23.
Played 21 games averaged 9 disposals, 2 marks, 15 hit-outs, 4 tackles.

Robert Warnock
Born: 19-Jan-1987 (Debut:20y 107d Last:23y 229d)
206 cm 96 kg
Traded with Pick 69 for Picks 24, 56 & 72 when aged 23.
Played 21 games averaged 9 disposals, 3 marks, 9 hit-outs, 1 tackle.

Sam Jacobs
Born: 10-Apr-1988 (Debut:20y 350d Last:22y 148d)
200 cm 100 kg
Offered for traded aged 22.
Played 17 games averaged 11 disposals, 3 marks, 20 hit-outs, 4 tackles.

Clearly, Sam's statistics are every bit as good and predominantly better than both Warnock & Mumford.

Jacobs has dominated the VFL final series and threw in 15 possession, 44 hit-out performance against Mumford in the AFL Elimination Final.

He is so ready for the next step and is screaming for an opportunity. Every single Carlton supported would gladly keep Big Sauce, but we can't offer him the opportunity like a club like Adelaide can, and he wants to go home.

He is worth more than (as above): Picks 24 & 56 or Pick 28.

Therefore the offer of Pick 33 is utterly unacceptable.

I still argue that in a compromised draft, Pick 14 is more than reasonable, but can see that may become problemmatic.

At least, for instance:

​

Pick 14 for Jacobs and Pick 52; or

​

Picks 14 and 50 for Jacobs and Pick 35.

Whichever way it gets broken down, I legitimately believe that Pick 14 should form the basis of the deal.

 

[Heyzeus]

Sam Jacobs
Born: 10-Apr-1988 (Debut:20y 350d Last:22y 148d)
200 cm 100 kg

Darren Jolly
Born: 06-Nov-1981 (Debut:19y 152d Last:28y 330d)
200 cm 105 kg

Jolly picked up as a 28yo.
When he was 22yo like Jacobs, he played 19 games and averaged 15 hit-outs.
Jacobs this year played 13 games and averaged 22 hit-outs.

Jolly didn't have a break-out season until he went to Sydney as a 24yo.

Ironically, Jolly was traded by Melbourne to Sydney for .... WAIT FOR IT .... Pick 15.

But sure, Carlton are asking for WWWAAAAYYY TOO MUCH in a compromised draft.

I believe my work here is done.

You can't compare stats from six years ago because the game has changed so much since then. With the huge increase in tackles that we've seen over the last couple of seasons there are more stoppages and hence more opportunities for Rucks to pump up their numbers.

Jolly had also played around 50 games for Melbourne when he was traded so he was much more proven than Jacobs is atm. I'm not saying that he wont be good but he hasn't played enough to demonstrate long-term consistency, so its more of a gamble for the Crows.

He is a second-rounder and you guys should take it before he leaves for nothing.

 

[brazilblue]

Like Judd and Warnock??

Like Williams, Spalding, Rhyse Jones etc

All played for different clubs, came to CFC and are true Blues for life.

Thats how it works with the Blues. Not trying to be smart cause geez we have had a horror run the last decade (penalties were too harsh) but that is the core of our culture ... YOU DO RIGHT BY THE CLUB THE CLUB DOES RIGHT BY YOU ... its the cornerstone of our foundation and its the reason I believe we have been so successful at always attracting marque players like Judd.

 

[macca23]

No on reflection I think Sauce + 18 for 14 and 33 is fair. Sauce has runs on the board and smashed it in a final. Best under 23 y.o for hit outs to advantage so yeah if I was CFC thats the final offer take it or leave it.

I rate Jacobs, and I think we'd be improved by getting him. That's obvious and the same as all trades, or there'd be no trades done.

I'd do that if it were up to me if I really had to.

However I'd prefer to hold 14 though, and would offer 33 plus Sellar, which would give Carlton more than a fair trade IMO.

It's a pity that we don't have room in our salary cap for Walker, as I'd give up our first rounder to get both as part of the deal - something like 14 plus either a 3rd rounder (traded in) or Sellar for Jacobs, Walker and Carlton's 2nd rounder.

 

[blues4flag]

You can't compare stats from six years ago because the game has changed so much since then. With the huge increase in tackles that we've seen over the last couple of seasons there are more stoppages and hence more opportunities for Rucks to pump up their numbers.

Jolly had also played around 50 games for Melbourne when he was traded so he was much more proven than Jacobs is atm. I'm not saying that he wont be good but he hasn't played enough to demonstrate long-term consistency, so its more of a gamble for the Crows.

He is a second-rounder and you guys should take it before he leaves for nothing.

He was averaging 3.5 disposals and 6.5 hitouts in his last year for Melbourne, yet was traded for pick 15. Jacobs averaged 11 disposals and 22 hitouts this season. Even when accounting the change of the game, that is a huge discrepancy.

Games played != proven. Even though Jolly was more experienced, his stats were vastly inferior to Jacobs and thus clearly wasn't the more proven player.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

and again you think these support you? those are different situations with different currencies.
He is worth more then those based on manipulated biased statistics that have no gaugable value, not the actual player value.
He is a depth player at our club just again agreed on trade week radio.
My interest is proven attributes not stats.

And you continue the flawed logic, of a compromised draft. The value of the players still there is what matters, we don't trade based on time travel.

33 or a depth player not a replacement player like is being continually presented.
Rutten and Stevens will need replacements this is the likes of Talia, Davis and Young.

Just leave it's been said go back through the thread.

 

[Heyzeus]

Jacobs and Mumford seem very close stats-wise based on those figures, so if Mumford went for 28 then thats roughly what Jacobs is worth.

33 is much closer to 28 than 14, which is just not gonna happen.

 

[Dirty Bird]

He's worth less than Warnock

Warnock wanted home, Victorian clubs were outbidding each other to get the best deal possible
he was expected to go for $400,000pa for 4 years
Carlton were fighting with others to get him

and even then all they did was give up a 2nd a 4th and have a slight upgrade in the 5th

Carlton do not hold the cards here, if we were fighting with Port for him it would be slightly below what Warnock went for, Jacobs is looking at $333,333.33ps for 3 years, less then Warnock, so IF we were fighting with Port a 2nd and our 4th would be fair
but the fact is we're not fighting with Port so even less then that is fair, Carlton have no leverage, 4th would of just been a sweetener, so a 2nd (what we're offering) would be fair

 

[brazilblue]

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read this.

Mate, you had the largest albino Gorilla of all time on your list for around 10 years and put up with him assaulting people when representing his country, urinating in public, etc etc etc.

The rest of your post was okay, but you must suffer from dementia to forget the length of time that Fevola was tolerated on your list.

I was referring to his merc attitude and the way in which he left the club (before you call Judd the biggest merc of all remember he came to CFC did not leave CFC).

Fevola is Fevola ... I think we can all agree that he is one of those players that lights up the field but his problems off field affect the club he is at.

I love the big lug but he can be the biggest tool on the planet given the right amount of booze ... good with the kids though.

 

[brazilblue]

I rate Jacobs, and I think we'd be improved by getting him. That's obvious and the same as all trades, or there'd be no trades done.

I'd do that if it were up to me if I really had to.

However I'd prefer to hold 14 though, and would offer 33 plus Sellar, which would give Carlton more than a fair trade IMO.

It's a pity that we don't have room in our salary cap for Walker, as I'd give up our first rounder to get both as part of the deal - something like 14 plus either a 3rd rounder (traded in) or Sellar for Jacobs, Walker and Carlton's 2nd rounder.

You seem fairly level headed Macca I would have loved to have seen 14 + Talia for Sauce and Walks .. IMHO I think that would have been huge wins for both our clubs. Just do not see what you see in Sellar ... sorry.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

Well Carlton may be needing 18 to switch with 16 for a port trade for Walker.
Since Walker is in contract and is a more known commodity and would be pretty damn good lined up at port with what they have already, he would be in that type of value plus another port pick or tall back man.

They have a lot on the table which is likely the biggest factor in how long they are taking, the arranging involved would be a bit tricky.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

You seem fairly level headed Macca I would have loved to have seen 14 + Talia for Sauce and Walks .. IMHO I think that would have been huge wins for both our clubs. Just do not see what you see in Sellar ... sorry.

That is a massive fail on adelaides account to trade 2 first rounders for those two.
You would clearly see it that way.

 

[Jars458]

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read this.

Mate, you had the largest albino Gorilla of all time on your list for around 10 years and put up with him assaulting people when representing his country, urinating in public, etc etc etc.

The rest of your post was okay, but you must suffer from dementia to forget the length of time that Fevola was tolerated on your list.

Not to mention Judd.

 

[Schulzycrow]

Headline Monday arvo after trade week has finished...

Jacobs goes to PSD...Carlton get nothing.

It will be Ball all over again.

 

[ETOH]

OK.

Shane Mumford
Born: 05-Jul-1986 (Debut:21y 295d Last:24y 68d)
200 cm 102 kg
Traded for Pick 28 when aged 23.
Played 21 games averaged 9 disposals, 2 marks, 15 hit-outs, 4 tackles.

Robert Warnock
Born: 19-Jan-1987 (Debut:20y 107d Last:23y 229d)
206 cm 96 kg
Traded with Pick 69 for Picks 24, 56 & 72 when aged 23.
Played 21 games averaged 9 disposals, 3 marks, 9 hit-outs, 1 tackle.

Sam Jacobs
Born: 10-Apr-1988 (Debut:20y 350d Last:22y 148d)
200 cm 100 kg
Offered for traded aged 22.
Played 17 games averaged 11 disposals, 3 marks, 20 hit-outs, 4 tackles.

Clearly, Sam's statistics are every bit as good and predominantly better than both Warnock & Mumford.

Jacobs has dominated the VFL final series and threw in 15 possession, 44 hit-out performance against Mumford in the AFL Elimination Final.

He is so ready for the next step and is screaming for an opportunity. Every single Carlton supported would gladly keep Big Sauce, but we can't offer him the opportunity like a club like Adelaide can, and he wants to go home.

He is worth more than (as above): Picks 24 & 56 or Pick 28.

Therefore the offer of Pick 33 is utterly unacceptable.

I still argue that in a compromised draft, Pick 14 is more than reasonable, but can see that may become problemmatic.

At least, for instanceick 14 for Jacobs and Pick 52; orPicks 14 and 50 for Jacobs and Pick 35.

Whichever way it gets broken down, I legitimately believe that Pick 14 should form the basis of the deal.

Sorry to butt in here, but if you're going to throw up stats like that you need % game time as well, otherwise they mean sweet FA. Jacobs offers nowhere near the around-the-ground ability that Warnock/Mumford do, he's sooooo slow. Pick 33 not utterly unacceptable; it's more than fair, and most unbiased supporters would agree.

 

[brazilblue]

That is a massive fail on adelaides account to trade 2 first rounders for those two.
You would clearly see it that way.

I understand why you would not go near it, just think that the trade would be equally beneficial to both clubs in the end.

Pie in the sky stuff that would never happen.

You do have a shed load of KPPs and walks and sauce fill needs that you have or had in regards to walks.

But yeah was just day dreaming.

 

[barrel47]

Sorry to butt in here, but if you're going to throw up stats like that you need % game time as well, otherwise they mean sweet FA.

Well you give us the stat then.
Justify your point.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

I understand why you would not go near it, just think that the trade would be equally beneficial to both clubs in the end.

Pie in the sky stuff that would never happen.

You do have a shed load of KPPs and walks and sauce fill needs that you have or had in regards to walks.

But yeah was just day dreaming.

We have to replace Rutten and Stevens they aren't gone yet but I don't want us having to field a undeveloped lad to get chewed up in one of the most important roles of negating the big hitter of a side this would have us in Carltons situation not being able to negate the much taller forward that a few sides have going around if we just decided to clear out the depth there now.

 

[King Elvis]

I understand why you would not go near it, just think that the trade would be equally beneficial to both clubs in the end.

Pie in the sky stuff that would never happen.

You do have a shed load of KPPs and walks and sauce fill needs that you have or had in regards to walks.

But yeah was just day dreaming.

That'd be a first rounder for Walker and a first rounder for Jacobs; we'd be getting utterly screwed.

Second or third rounder plus either of Talia/#14 would be palatable.


Anyway, #14 thing - Jacobs wants to leave, he wants to come to Adelaide, he wants to play for the Crows.

Forget everything else - that's the bulk of your leverage gone (thanks to us having a shit year for a change); Pick 14 is too much, the Bock pick would've been perfect (which I believe I've said all along) - but Swann/Icke apparently screwed us around while Richmond got down to business.

Which means #33 is all we have left to offer that's around the right value (which I'd say is #23-#28); taking into account the other circumstances surrounding the potential trade.

And really, when it comes down to it, Maric is made to look worse due to him shouldering the vast majority of our ruck duties this year - the first half of the year, he was excellent, and everybody on here was raving about him (and I believe he was labelled one of the best young rucks in the game On The Couch), then he ran out of steam and his performances seriously tailed off.

If they demand #14, say no.

If we can't get Jacobs in the PSD, it's a shame.

But Maric and McKernan (with the stupid new rules) - I'd be very comfortable going into next year with that ruck setup.

 

[ManInTheArena]

Well you give us the stat then.
Justify your point.

His point was that your point needs justification.

 

[headache1]

Wait, so if you thought he was worth Pick 14 you'd prefer to **** over the club that he is leaving and force the player to go into the draft where he has the chance of being picked up by another club (however low the chances are of him being picked up before you guys are, the possibility is still there)?

Surely no club would be that unreasonable?

Surely they wouldn't be that stupid either. In all seriousness, I think we would have more chance of getting him through the PSD than the ND.

 

[srv23]

According to this article Jacobs has indicated he'll go into the draft if an agreement can't be met with Carlton - so there'll be no re-signing with Carlton as Harper/Rendell said. Glad this has finally come out to strengthen our bargaining over the last 2 days. Guess Jacobs doesn't have the "integrity" "professionalism" and "love for Carlotn" to not force their hand by refusing to sign with them and go into the draft. If Carlton don't deal with us they will officially lose him for nothing.

.http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/103966/default.aspx

Wow also just read in that article that they also asked for Talia(possible but unlikely) or Davis(absolutely ridiculous). And they (and their supporters) think we're being unreasonable at the trade table.

 

[Kickin_Goals]

Their supporters are pretty much them, they are rather clueless it would seem. Unfortunate for carlton to have such inept traders that they didnt pick up the bock compo.

 

[macca23]

You seem fairly level headed Macca I would have loved to have seen 14 + Talia for Sauce and Walks .. IMHO I think that would have been huge wins for both our clubs. Just do not see what you see in Sellar ... sorry.

I'm sure you would like our first round pick plus Talia,BB, but that's a first rounder for each and IMO each of them is a 2nd rounder plus a tickle.

Talia in fact is really more than a 1st rounder. He's a first rounder with 1 year of SANFL experience under his belt, and will be very close to playing AFL at some stage next year. He's on Adelaide's untouchable list and each club has or should have a reasonably long list of such players that either are vital to either their structure or future.

Carlton supporters refer to Sellar as if he is a dud, which he isn't. He's a big man yet has already played 16 games at AFL level at age 21, and looking more at home with each outing - as has Jacobs.

If we give you pick 33 plus Sellar, IMO you're a winner, and we can live with it. Given that we have Davis and Talia as young KPD's, Sellar becomes an extra to our structure if we get Jacobs yet obviously his best football is still ahead of him.