Just how important is the pre-season comp to you?

[Blues2001]

I've thought about this quite a lot - I was wondering what you would prefer out of these two scenarios.

You can either win the pre-season comp OR win in round one of the premiership season.

What would you prefer?

I would go for the victory in round 1.

 

[Dan26]

I'll take the pre-season comp easily.

Why?

Because it's one of the two premierships you can win for the year. If you lose it, then it means you can only win one premiership (the big one.)

If you lose a Round 1 match, you can still reocver to go 21-1 (in theory.) You can still win both premierships if you lose a Round one match. I mena it's only one little home and away match. Plenty of others to go, 21 in fact.

A round one match is just 1/22 (4.5% of the season.)

It is interesting to note that when Port played Brisbane in the Ansett Cup GF, the crowd was 35,000, but when the same two teams met in Round one at the same venue two weeks later the crowd was 22,000.

Winning a premiership even the Ansett Cup will always be bigger than one H&A match and the crowds are testament to this.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Two schools of thought here. The preseason games do have a prize at the end but are also used to blood new players and try different tactics. They are also used by the AFL to trial new rules which suggests that they are not the be all and end all according to the AFL. They would never tamper with the rules for a H&A game in the same way because it makes up part of the season proper. I kind of liken the preseason cup to a rugby sevens tournament before the world cup begins. Nobody will ever beat themselves up over the preseason cup that got away.

Perhaps because the Blues are a club that use the preseason to work on a few things and seldom attack it in earnest, my mindset is affected as a result.

I wonder at the psychological impact of opening the season on a loss. You are playing catchup from the outset. I firmly believe that the Round 1 game between Carlton and Freo where the Blues won by a point set the Dockers on a path of destruction for 2001 to some extent. They needed a good start to give them belief in themselves. Having said that there are many instances of round one losers going on to win the flag but I wouldn't want to sacrifice a single point of percentage let alone a win such is the competitive nature of the competition.

 

[Blues2001]

Fair enough Dan, but I find the pre-season comp nothing but an experiment. To me it has no importance. I would almost rather us lose gracefully in the semi finals rather than win it.

Round 1 is part of the premiership season, the thing that counts......the only thing that counts for me. That one game may make the difference at the end of 22 rounds between 1st and 2nd, 4th and 5th, 8th and 9th or whatever. The pre-season comp will be long forgotten by then.

 

[PowerGirl36]

Well, if I were talking about last year I would of had to go with the Pre Season Comp. In theory I would think Round 1 to be my preferred option as it could set your team up for a good season. But last year I guess Port had something to prove and we sort of did that by winning the AC. It was probably the most exciting moment for myself in season 2001. If the results were reversed with the Brisbane games (only just scraping through in the AC and thrashing them in R1) even then I would probably still feel the same.
However in 2002, winning Round 1 is very important to me and I'd much rather win that than the Pre Season Comp again.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
They are also used by the AFL to trial new rules which suggests that they are not the be all and end all according to the AFL. They would never tamper with the rules for a H&A game in the same way because it makes up part of the season proper.

The new rules have only ever been in place for the opening round (or maybe two rounds) of the Ansett Cup. The rest of the tournament is played to traditional rules.

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Perhaps because the Blues are a club that use the preseason to work on a few things and seldom attack it in earnest, my mindset is affected as a result.

Were you one of the 75,000 that went to the '97 Ansett Cup GF to see Carlton beat Geelong? Carlton have never been able to attract that much against the cats in a Home and Away match.

What does that tell you?

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
I wonder at the psychological impact of opening the season on a loss. You are playing catchup from the outset.

From From 1986 to 1994 - nine consecutive years - the premiership winner in September lost their Round 1 match. NINE CONSECUTIVE YEARS!

Didn't seem to give them too many problems. Sure you'd like to get off to a good start, but if you don't, there are still 21 matches left. How can one little H&A match be bigger than a Grand Final?

The answer is, it's not bigger and the crowds at th Ansett Cup GF prove this. The fans vote with their feet. They attend the Ansett Cup GF in bigger number than a Round 1 match.

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Dan26

The answer is, it's not bigger and the crowds at th Ansett Cup GF prove this. The fans vote with their feet. They attend the Ansett Cup GF in bigger number than a Round 1 match.

Ever thought that this might have something to do with the fact that in round 1 there are 8 games on a weekend compared to one? Throw in the fireworks and anticipation of the coming season as well as plenty of neutral fans and you have a big crowd. But it is very quickly forgotten Dan.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Blues2001
Fair enough Dan, but I find the pre-season comp nothing but an experiment. To me it has no importance. I would almost rather us lose gracefully in the semi finals rather than win it.

That defies belief. A premiership adds to the clubs history, adds to the trophy cabinet and is good to win (not to mention the prizemoney.)

Why you would WANT to lose in the semi-finals is totally beyond my comprehesion. I am staggered that you said that actually.

And, no the pre-season comp doesn't get "forgotten." I'm sure you know just as well as I do, who won the 2001 Ansett Cup.

And yes, Round 1 might be part of the premiership season, but it is only worth 4.5% of it!

In 1993, we won the Ansett Cup in front of 75,000 against Richmond. It was a great night. We then lost in Round 1 against West Coast.

I don't think any Essendon fans would want to swap those results. They'd have to have rocks in their head!

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Blues2001


Ever thought that this might have something to do with the fact that in round 1 there are 8 games on a weekend compared to one? Throw in the fireworks and anticipation of the coming season as well as plenty of neutral fans and you have a big crowd. But it is very quickly forgotten Dan.

No, you're wrong.

In 2001, there was only one Round 1 home and away game in Adelaide. It was the re-match of the Ansett Cup Grand Final, and it only drew 22,000. The Ansett Cup GF drew 35,000.

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Dan26


No, you're wrong.

In 2001, there was only one Round 1 home and away game in Adelaide. It was the re-match of the Ansett Cup Grand Final, and it only drew 22,000. The Ansett Cup GF drew 35,000.

Why am I wrong? You give me one instance and you say I am wrong? Besides, the Power were a different scenario. Just check what Powergirl had to say - they had something to prove and were taking the comp seriously. A lot of clubs don't, including yours last year. Do you think you didn't take round 1 seriously though?

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Dan26


That defies belief. A premiership adds to the clubs history, adds to the trophy cabinet and is good to win (not to mention the prizemoney.)

Why you would WANT to lose in the semi-finals is totally beyond my comprehesion. I am staggered that you said that actually.

And, no the pre-season comp doesn't get "forgotten." I'm sure you know just as well as I do, who won the 2001 Ansett Cup.

And yes, Round 1 might be part of the premiership season, but it is only worth 4.5% of it!

In 1993, we won the Ansett Cup in front of 75,000 against Richmond. It was a great night. We then lost in Round 1 against West Coast.

I don't think any Essendon fans would want to swap those results. They'd have to have rocks in their head!

If you had missed the finals by a game then I think they would be stupid not to swap those results.

When I say I would (almost) want us to bow out gracefully in the semis - well there is no way I would barrack against us, but I wouldn't care if we lost. This is only because in a lot of cases the winner of the pre-season comp has gone on to a terrible start to the season. This trend has weakened in the last two seasons, but has existed in the past. I remember Denis Pagan one year saying that he wished he had never won the pre-season comp.

Anyway, I just don't care about the result of the pre-season comp. It is only there to wet my appetite for the real stuff.

 

[Dan26]

You're wrong because you said the instance of 8 games will detract from a round 1 crowd. That obviously is wrong.

In 2001, there was only ONE game in Adelaide. South Australian fans could only attend one game. And 22,000 of them did, which was 13,000 less than who attended the Ansett Cup GF involving the same teams!

And generally speaking we do take the Ansett Cup seriously We took it seriously last year but were underprepared (according to Robert Shaw)

Sheedy liks to win whatever part of the season we are in. We have won the Pre-season comp 6 times since 1981, so I don't accept that we don't take it seriously. I was listening to Robert Shaw on Footy Feedlback on Optus during the year and he said quite rightly that it is good to be playing well in the pre-season, and it is great to win. Teams that win the Ansett Cup usually go on to have a great home and away season.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by Dan26
The new rules have only ever been in place for the opening round (or maybe two rounds) of the Ansett Cup. The rest of the tournament is played to traditional rules.

Still the AFL use the Preseason comp to experiment, regardless of what round they do it in. A bad rule interpretation can still cost a team a game and in turn take away the chance to progress to a final.

Were you one of the 75,000 that went to the '97 Ansett Cup GF to see Carlton beat Geelong? Carlton have never been able to attract that much against the cats in a Home and Away match.

What does that tell you?

I wasn't as I don't live in Melbourne but I was happy about it of course though there was something missing intensity wise when I watched it. What can I tell you, the Blues for the most part have played very young and experimental sides and used the games to set themselves up for the season, in the time I have been following them. If they are in the running for the final, they will put in a stronger side but in a lot of years they have been out of the running early because of their semi-serious approaches to the cup. As a result I don't have expectations for the pre-season so my priorities might be different to yours.

From From 1986 to 1994 - nine consecutive years - the premiership winner in September lost their Round 1 match. NINE CONSECUTIVE YEARS!

Didn't seem to give them too many problems. Sure you'd like to get off to a good start, but if you don't, there are still 21 matches left. How can one little H&A match be bigger than a Grand Final?

The answer is, it's not bigger and the crowds at th Ansett Cup GF prove this. The fans vote with their feet. They attend the Ansett Cup GF in bigger number than a Round 1 match.

Actually Dan, if your precious system was in place, that one little H&A match would take on an extreme importance wouldn't it?

For the record, I did say that many teams had lost their first match and went on to win the flag. It still doesn't mean their task was just as easy as if they had have won. Let's ask Tiger supporters after a season where they came 9th how much that one little win would have meant to them. I suspect that they might have traded a pre-season cup for the chance to play in the finals after they had been out of the finals for a long time.

Once more, there are two schools of thought and just because you or a majority consider the preseason cup to be more important doesn't mean you can tell us that it should be more important to us. The question is which one do you think is more important? I believe we have both answered the question.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Blues2001


If you had missed the finals by a game then I think they would be stupid not to swap those results.

Ha, I knew you would say that! A finals berth is not gained by ONE win. It is gained by 11 or 12 wins. if you lose in Round 1, there is still plenty of time to get it right. One H&A match is not that important in relative terms.

Of course, there is no law that says you can't win both!

But in 1993, I can tell you I wouldn't swap our Ansett Cup win in front of 75,000 for our loss to West Coast in Round 1 for anything.

 

[tashibatts]

I would like to win both the pre-season comp cup and the rd1 h&a game.

But if I had to choose I would choose the rd1 h&a game.
Because:
Round 1 means alot to me, it is the start of THE season, and I htink it is an important game to win, it can show how your season will go. If u lose it is likely that u will lose a bit of momentum and therefore will have a bad couple of rounds, maybe a terrible season (whole season, not couple of rounds) where as if u win it is likely u will get momentum and may be able to have a good and consistent season.

I just hope the Roos can win rd1 this season. It seems pretty likely they will at the moment, considering they are playing Port and Port havent beat the Roos in a H&A game yet. (They have beat them pre-season only)

Go Roos2002!

 

[Chris_23]

I'd prefer victory in Round 1. I enjoy the pre-season competition and it was great when we won in 1999. But the 4 points from a victory in Round 1 could be the difference between a final 8 position or a top 4 position.

Dan, why can't you let people have their own opinion? Your argumentative nature is growing tiresome.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by Dan26
But in 1993, I can tell you I wouldn't swap our Ansett Cup win in front of 75,000 for our loss to West Coast in Round 1 for anything.

Of course you wouldn't, you not only made the finals but won the flag and everything worked out fine. What if you had have missed the finals by a game? Hindsight is easy.

I'll give you another hindsight question. Would you have traded the preseason win in 2000 for a win in the game against the Bulldogs which would have given you a perfect season? Not a perfect scenario because the duel cups is a big sweetener in itself. Would you swap one of your other preseason cups for a win against the Bulldogs and that perfect season?

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Of course you wouldn't, you not only made the finals but won the flag and everything worked out fine. What if you had have missed the finals by a game? Hindsight is easy.

I'll give you another hindsight question. Would you have traded the preseason win in 2000 for a win in the game against the Bulldogs which would have given you a perfect season? Not a perfect scenario because the duel cups is a big sweetener in itself. Would you swap one of your other preseason cups for a win against the Bulldogs and that perfect season?

No, I'd take the pre-season cup.

An Ansett cup premiership plus a 24-1 season (premiership) is betetr than No Ansett Cup and a 25-0 season.

I would LOVE to go 25-0, but given 24-1 was a premiership anyway I'd take the Ansett Cup. I can live with 24-1

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I rephrased that question Dan as I know the duel cups is as big an accomplishment as a perfect season. Would you trade one of your other preseason cups for that win against the Bulldogs that would have given you two cups and a perfect season?

 

[iceman]

I'd prefer a H&A win first up, the preseason cup has never been taken seriously by the Eagles and has always been used to blood new players and try players in different positions.

However, i'd still like to see us be competitive in the ansett cup!!

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by tashibatts
Round 1 means alot to me, it is the start of THE season, and I htink it is an important game to win, it can show how your season will go

I don't think it shows how your season will go at all. From 1986-1994, the September premier lost in Round 1.

Adelaide got off to a bad start in Round 1, 1998. The Crows also got off to a bad start in 1997, even though they won in Rond 1.

Brisbane got off to a bad start in 2001. They were 4-5 after their first nine games. If you don't play well in Round 1, it doesn't show how your season will go at all. Plenty of teams have started slowly only to play better come September.

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
I rephrased that question Dan as I know the duel cups is as big an accomplishment as a perfect season. Would you trade one of your other preseason cups for that win against the Bulldogs that would have given you two cups and a perfect season?

No I wouldn't, because at the end of the day, it will mean you will have won one less premiership, albeit an Ansett Cup one.

I'm not saying the Ansett Cup is THAT important. It's not. But it is more important than 1/22nd of the home and away season.

 

[Blues2001]

Originally posted by Dan26


I don't think it shows how your season will go at all. From 1986-1994, the September premier lost in Round 1.

Adelaide got off to a bad start in Round 1, 1998. The Crows also got off to a bad start in 1997, even though they won in Rond 1.

Brisbane got off to a bad start in 2001. They were 4-5 after their first nine games. If you don't play well in Round 1, it doesn't show how your season will go at all. Plenty of teams have started slowly only to play better come September.

Dan, all that is completely besides the point. Do you think clubs would go out and try and lose in round 1 on purpose because they know that past premiers may have struggled in round 1? No, that's inviting disaster. Of course it doesn't matter that it's round 1, I only used that for convenience sake. It could be any home and away victory.

 

[Blues2001]

How on earth is the pre-season comp option ahead in this poll? Of seven people to post in this thread, one has said they would rather win the pre-season comp, and 6 have said they would rather win round 1.

Bizarre!

 

[Dan26]

Must be the silent majority, Blues 2001!