chev1977
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You can have all the Pre Season Cups you want Porthos !!! we have two real Premierships : )
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Just how important is the pre-season comp to you?
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You can have all the Pre Season Cups you want Porthos !!! we have two real Premierships : )
Gonna need all the wins we can get, so I'll take Round 1. Especially since it's a derby too 
Originally posted by Dan26
Funny, how people disregard the McClelland trophy and home and away football, but the minute someone proposes losing in Round one, it magically becomes more important to them.
Funny how people regard the McLelland trophy and pre-season cup in their list of achievments in order for them to gain a false sense of security in premiership tallies.
Dan, Essendon have drawn level with Carlton of premierships. Essendon are not ahead of Carlton in premierships. You are the only person on this site that holds these meaningless achievements in high esteem. Actually, I'm suprised that you haven't included reserve premiership's and u19 flags to add to any of your arguments in the past year.
You're not one of those people who barrack for the bomber's little league side at half time are you ?
Macca19
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All this means jack crap Dan because it IS a grand final and you will get a lot of neutral supporters who go to the ansett cup final for the spectacle...to be able to watch a grand final.
Most of these neutral supporters wouldnt go and see Essendon v Adelaide in a minor round game...or North v St Kilda for instance.
Thats why the grand final gets bigger crowds - the neutral supporters. Would of thought it to be a logical and obvious reason
Someone explain to me how a big crowd makes a pre-season cup win more enjoyable than taking 4 points? I don't go to the football to see 90,000 people, i go to see Hawthorn win.
What next Dan? "The Pre-Season cup is played in February. The weather is warmer and the temperature is more condusive to big crowds and an enjoyable night. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....."
Give it a rest, please.
What next Dan? "The Pre-Season cup is played in February. The weather is warmer and the temperature is more condusive to big crowds and an enjoyable night. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....."
Give it a rest, please.
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I would happily take the GF loss if I knew we would beat them in round 1. It's not even a difficult choice.
Thank you Chris, you beat me to it!!!! Dan....you have inferred in several posts in this thread, not to mention numerous other threads in Bigfooty, that the importance of a game can be measured by the crowd in attendance...what absolute bollox!!!
As Chris said, I go to watch Hawthorn win the 4 points, not to see how big the crowd is. Yes, having a big crowd means a great atmosphere, but if the game is of no consequence then who really cares?
I'll give you an example. Hawthorn beat Port Adelaide in the 1999 Ansett Cup GF in front of over 50,000 people. It was a great night, and I was very happy cause Hawthorn hadn't won anything since 1992. Yet I would have given that up in a second for one more win during the H&A season, as we would have made the finals.
Most people I know enjoy the pre-season comp because footy is back, but don't get too wound up about it. I can't say I was devastated when we lost the semi-final to Brisbane this year, because I knew we had performed well against a good team and would do alright when it mattered, the Home and Away season!
With the new round-robin format, most teams are now just using the competition to trial rookies and new tactics, nothing more. The pre-season comp has little if any prestige or importance in the grand scheme of things. If it's so important why can virtually no one name who has won the most night premierships, kicked the most goals or played the most games? The intensity and standard of these games are clearly inferior to a H&A match.
When people talk about great games, they never say "how about that win in the group stage of the Ansett Cup in 1998". They talk about H&A and finals games, because they are the games that matter, and they are the games that get you to the only important goal as a team in football, the Premiership Cup.
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I would rather win 4.5% of something than 100% of nothing
The pre-season cup is mickey mouse and is very soon forgotten about
In the pre-season coaches use young players and try new tactics and really don't give a crap whether they actually win it but only whether it PREPARES THEM WELL for Round One.
Personally I would trade in 100 night Premierships for one day premiership. As hardly any one takes it 100% seriously
ie if a player is even close to injured they do not play in teh pre-season but in the main season some players play when only 50% fit
Reason being its far more important
Sure if you make the GF of the night series you want to win it - who doesnt, but post fact if you had to chose between a GF win and a round win, you would take the four points if you had any grip on reality
Night premierships are hardly worth the paper they are written on
Anyone who brags about them needs to get a life
The pre-season cup is mickey mouse and is very soon forgotten about
In the pre-season coaches use young players and try new tactics and really don't give a crap whether they actually win it but only whether it PREPARES THEM WELL for Round One.
Personally I would trade in 100 night Premierships for one day premiership. As hardly any one takes it 100% seriously
ie if a player is even close to injured they do not play in teh pre-season but in the main season some players play when only 50% fit
Reason being its far more important
Sure if you make the GF of the night series you want to win it - who doesnt, but post fact if you had to chose between a GF win and a round win, you would take the four points if you had any grip on reality
Night premierships are hardly worth the paper they are written on
Anyone who brags about them needs to get a life
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No way Dan
In my view that comment makes you un-Australian
it is the very thing that gives the competition its uniquely Australian feel in my view.
Do you think the NBA team or NFL team iwth the best record should win the Premiership without finals??
How boring would life be then. The season would be over for more than half the teams two thirds of the way in. They would lose all motivaition and in fact would more prefer to lose to get better draft pick.
In short, like you, the competition would become a joke.
chev1977
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Winning the Ireland International is more important than a Pre season Flag...!
And only when the Internation Comp truely kicks off with 10 plus nations will it ever be more important than the real Premiership.
And only when the Internation Comp truely kicks off with 10 plus nations will it ever be more important than the real Premiership.
I would take round 1.
I do believe that the pre-season comp is legitimate and means something. Like a few others have said I expect Port to take any game seriously and attempt to win it. Even if you are experimenting you do that for a reason...ie to win....not just for the sake of it.
However the PAFC exists to win premierships....in the SANFL it won a truckload of them. Ask me (or any Port supporter) how many pre-season comps they won. I could not tell you. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is the day premiership....everything else is a sideshow.
I do not care if Port are playing Adelaide, Essendon or Barwon Heads I would take R1 everytime as it is some progress towards the real thing. Win the flag you probably need to finish top 4 and win 15 or so H&A games to be a real chance. 15/22 is different from 15/21....15/21 is not impossible but harder nonetheless. To say it is just 1 game does not make sense as the logical extension is that each round is just 1 game and therefore it doesn't matter if you lose as there are always 21 others. Of course it does matter....and eventually it becomes 15/15 or 15/14 and then you are stuffed. So R1 is vital....as vital as R17 and R22. The pre-season cup is not vital....it all starts again afterwards.
I would hand back last years cup to win in R1 this year.
Satay Mat
I do believe that the pre-season comp is legitimate and means something. Like a few others have said I expect Port to take any game seriously and attempt to win it. Even if you are experimenting you do that for a reason...ie to win....not just for the sake of it.
However the PAFC exists to win premierships....in the SANFL it won a truckload of them. Ask me (or any Port supporter) how many pre-season comps they won. I could not tell you. The only thing that matters at the end of the day is the day premiership....everything else is a sideshow.
I do not care if Port are playing Adelaide, Essendon or Barwon Heads I would take R1 everytime as it is some progress towards the real thing. Win the flag you probably need to finish top 4 and win 15 or so H&A games to be a real chance. 15/22 is different from 15/21....15/21 is not impossible but harder nonetheless. To say it is just 1 game does not make sense as the logical extension is that each round is just 1 game and therefore it doesn't matter if you lose as there are always 21 others. Of course it does matter....and eventually it becomes 15/15 or 15/14 and then you are stuffed. So R1 is vital....as vital as R17 and R22. The pre-season cup is not vital....it all starts again afterwards.
I would hand back last years cup to win in R1 this year.
Satay Mat
GOALden,
The public will inevitably decide if something is "big." If a large crowd turns up for the Ansett Cup Grand Final, then this means that it means a lot to those people. Why else would they feel compelled to turn up, unless it was important to them.
In 1995, the Ansett Cup GF crowd between the Roos and the Crows was 39,000. Seven days later at the MCG, the same two clubs drew 24,000. Now, obviously, the Round 1 match didn't mean as much to as many people or more people would have gone, right?
Now, obviously crowd sizes are not always comparable to importance, but they can be a good indication. More important games get bigger crowds generally speaking, right? A Round 22 game with a finals spot up for grabs will get more than meaningless Round 22 game, right?
The Grand Final in Septemer is the highest attended game of the year, right? Why? Easy answer - because it's the most important game. Duh!
If 75,000 attend the Ansett Cup Grand Final, then those 75,000 are telling you that the game is important enough for them to attend. If the same two clubs draw 40,000 in Round 1, then 35,000 people didn't feel the need to turn up, because it wasn't important enough to them.
There are exceptions to the rule, or course, but generally speaking bigger crowds go to the more important games.
Blues2001,
I can't believe you would take a Round 1 victory over the Pies than an Ansett Cup GRAND FINAL victory (in front of what would be a bigger crowd.) That's insane. Don't let 'em have a premiership, mate. Trust me! If you had to be there to watch the Pies win a Grand Final over you, I can tell you right now, you'd change your mind. Round 1 games are worth 4.5% of the season - nothing really. If you lose in Round 1, you could still win the flag anyway! I think you're just saying that because you don't want to be seen to changeyour opinion, because it makes no sense for a Carlton fan to get more enjoyment out of Round 1 everyday victory over Collingwood than a GF win over them.
Also, I think I should re-phrase the questioning. Whenever someone proposes that they would trade a Round 1 win for a Ansett Cup premiership, the typical childish response is : "But what if you miss the finals by a game?"
That is illogical, because thereis no reason why you can't win BOTH.
Therefore, which match will you walk away from with more enjoyment? Am Ansett Cup PREMIERSHIP or a Round 1 win over the same opponent? Which win will get you into the alcohol for celebrations quicker? Which will you be more likely to buy on video? The answer is the Ansett Cup, because all retail stores sell the Ansett Cup video. They don't sell Round 1 games, because nobody wants to buy them! You have to order them from AFV! Go into a Kmart or a Target, and you won't see Round 1 games for sale, but you will see the Ansett Cup Grand Final for sale. Why? Because more people want to but it! That CANNOT be argued.
Look at 1996, when the Saints won the Ansett Cup? They celebrated that win 10 times more fervently than any H&A win over Carlton.
Look at 1995, when North beat the Crows! That win was played out in front of 15,000 more people than the Roudn 1 match between the same teams 7 days later. Obviously that means something, because those 39,000 people that went to the Grand Final felt it important enough to do so. Only 24,000 felt compled to go to Round 1. More Crows fans crossed the border for teh GF than for the Round 1 match? Why? Because it was more important to THOSE fans.
If you look at the crowd numbers, but more importantly the crowd RESPONSES after an Ansett Cup GF, it is obvious that those fans enjoyed the win, and got more pleasure than a home and away match.
Do you think I got more enjoyment from our 1993 Ansett Cup win over Richmond in front of 75,000? Or do you think I got more enjoyment from beating the Tigers in front of 19,000 at Optus Oval 10 weeks later? Have a guess.
Don't you dare tell me that you enjoyed your Mother's day bore over Geelong this year in front of 29,000 than your win over them in the Ansett Cup GF in '97! Are you telling me your win over the Cats in 2001 was cause for more wild celebrations and "enjoyment" than a GF victroy? Get real!
If I had to choose to watch a video of the 1993 Ansett Cup GF, or our win over the Tigers 10 week later in front of 19,000, I know what i'd choose.
The public will inevitably decide if something is "big." If a large crowd turns up for the Ansett Cup Grand Final, then this means that it means a lot to those people. Why else would they feel compelled to turn up, unless it was important to them.
In 1995, the Ansett Cup GF crowd between the Roos and the Crows was 39,000. Seven days later at the MCG, the same two clubs drew 24,000. Now, obviously, the Round 1 match didn't mean as much to as many people or more people would have gone, right?
Now, obviously crowd sizes are not always comparable to importance, but they can be a good indication. More important games get bigger crowds generally speaking, right? A Round 22 game with a finals spot up for grabs will get more than meaningless Round 22 game, right?
The Grand Final in Septemer is the highest attended game of the year, right? Why? Easy answer - because it's the most important game. Duh!
If 75,000 attend the Ansett Cup Grand Final, then those 75,000 are telling you that the game is important enough for them to attend. If the same two clubs draw 40,000 in Round 1, then 35,000 people didn't feel the need to turn up, because it wasn't important enough to them.
There are exceptions to the rule, or course, but generally speaking bigger crowds go to the more important games.
Blues2001,
I can't believe you would take a Round 1 victory over the Pies than an Ansett Cup GRAND FINAL victory (in front of what would be a bigger crowd.) That's insane. Don't let 'em have a premiership, mate. Trust me! If you had to be there to watch the Pies win a Grand Final over you, I can tell you right now, you'd change your mind. Round 1 games are worth 4.5% of the season - nothing really. If you lose in Round 1, you could still win the flag anyway! I think you're just saying that because you don't want to be seen to changeyour opinion, because it makes no sense for a Carlton fan to get more enjoyment out of Round 1 everyday victory over Collingwood than a GF win over them.
Also, I think I should re-phrase the questioning. Whenever someone proposes that they would trade a Round 1 win for a Ansett Cup premiership, the typical childish response is : "But what if you miss the finals by a game?"
That is illogical, because thereis no reason why you can't win BOTH.
Therefore, which match will you walk away from with more enjoyment? Am Ansett Cup PREMIERSHIP or a Round 1 win over the same opponent? Which win will get you into the alcohol for celebrations quicker? Which will you be more likely to buy on video? The answer is the Ansett Cup, because all retail stores sell the Ansett Cup video. They don't sell Round 1 games, because nobody wants to buy them! You have to order them from AFV! Go into a Kmart or a Target, and you won't see Round 1 games for sale, but you will see the Ansett Cup Grand Final for sale. Why? Because more people want to but it! That CANNOT be argued.
Look at 1996, when the Saints won the Ansett Cup? They celebrated that win 10 times more fervently than any H&A win over Carlton.
Look at 1995, when North beat the Crows! That win was played out in front of 15,000 more people than the Roudn 1 match between the same teams 7 days later. Obviously that means something, because those 39,000 people that went to the Grand Final felt it important enough to do so. Only 24,000 felt compled to go to Round 1. More Crows fans crossed the border for teh GF than for the Round 1 match? Why? Because it was more important to THOSE fans.
If you look at the crowd numbers, but more importantly the crowd RESPONSES after an Ansett Cup GF, it is obvious that those fans enjoyed the win, and got more pleasure than a home and away match.
Do you think I got more enjoyment from our 1993 Ansett Cup win over Richmond in front of 75,000? Or do you think I got more enjoyment from beating the Tigers in front of 19,000 at Optus Oval 10 weeks later? Have a guess.
Don't you dare tell me that you enjoyed your Mother's day bore over Geelong this year in front of 29,000 than your win over them in the Ansett Cup GF in '97! Are you telling me your win over the Cats in 2001 was cause for more wild celebrations and "enjoyment" than a GF victroy? Get real!
If I had to choose to watch a video of the 1993 Ansett Cup GF, or our win over the Tigers 10 week later in front of 19,000, I know what i'd choose.
Satay Mat,
You are making a mistake. You are comparing the whole seaosn to the Ansett Cup GF, I'm talking about one home and away match. One.
Now, forget about sawpping wins and all that crap. Which win would give you more enjoyment, and be cause for more celebrations? An Ansett Cup GF win, or a Round 1 win? The answer is an Ansett Cup win.
I stated in my post above that it gets bigger crowds, is cause for more celebration (that is a FACT if you look at the reactions of the winners and compare it to the reaction after a typical home and away game), and the Ansett Cup GF gets sold at retail stores, and Round 1 games don't.
More people go home from an Ansett Cup PREMIERSHIP with more enjoyment and more cause for celebration than one H&A win, and this is a fact. You may not, but most people do.
So, like I said forget all that crap abot swapping wins. Just imagine you win both in Round 1 and the Ansett Cup Grand Final. As has been proven by the crowds, and their reactions, and by how many watch the game, the Ansett Cup GF is a more enjoyable experience than ONE H&A match.
You are making a mistake. You are comparing the whole seaosn to the Ansett Cup GF, I'm talking about one home and away match. One.
Now, forget about sawpping wins and all that crap. Which win would give you more enjoyment, and be cause for more celebrations? An Ansett Cup GF win, or a Round 1 win? The answer is an Ansett Cup win.
I stated in my post above that it gets bigger crowds, is cause for more celebration (that is a FACT if you look at the reactions of the winners and compare it to the reaction after a typical home and away game), and the Ansett Cup GF gets sold at retail stores, and Round 1 games don't.
More people go home from an Ansett Cup PREMIERSHIP with more enjoyment and more cause for celebration than one H&A win, and this is a fact. You may not, but most people do.
So, like I said forget all that crap abot swapping wins. Just imagine you win both in Round 1 and the Ansett Cup Grand Final. As has been proven by the crowds, and their reactions, and by how many watch the game, the Ansett Cup GF is a more enjoyable experience than ONE H&A match.
you cannot divorce one game from the entire season Dan. What is a season ? It is a collection of single games.
A pre-season win may be more "enjoyable" as a single game but under normal circumstances (ie you have a half decent shot at the real thing) it is less important....because it's impact on the real thing is zero. The impact of Round 1 could be 4.5% or 1.2% or 53% but it is more than zero and therefore more important....if you judge success by day premierships won.
Using the stats from before....
15/22 = 68% of games you must win
15/21 = 71.5%
now....put it another way. Lets say that Essendon finish 5th in 2002 H&A and have (say) a 25% chance of winning the flag. Would you trade the AC in order to finish 4th and have a 30% chance.....I would. If Port could have traded the cup to finish 2nd instead of 3rd last year I would have jumped at it.....and so would have you I suspect.
Satay Mat
A pre-season win may be more "enjoyable" as a single game but under normal circumstances (ie you have a half decent shot at the real thing) it is less important....because it's impact on the real thing is zero. The impact of Round 1 could be 4.5% or 1.2% or 53% but it is more than zero and therefore more important....if you judge success by day premierships won.
Using the stats from before....
15/22 = 68% of games you must win
15/21 = 71.5%
now....put it another way. Lets say that Essendon finish 5th in 2002 H&A and have (say) a 25% chance of winning the flag. Would you trade the AC in order to finish 4th and have a 30% chance.....I would. If Port could have traded the cup to finish 2nd instead of 3rd last year I would have jumped at it.....and so would have you I suspect.
Satay Mat
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The 6 point win over Brisbane last year was more entertaining than pummelling them until half time and watching them slump afterwards in the Ansett Cup.
Also, where did this info come from? "More people go home from an Ansett Cup PREMIERSHIP with more enjoyment and more cause for celebration than one H&A win, and this is a fact. You may not, but most people do.". Is there some study into this that no-one else has seen? I'm intrigued.
I told you Satay Mat, forget all this "trading wins" crap. There is no reason why you can't win both. You know that as well as I do, so why bring it up?
The enjoyment of an Ansett Cup premiership is greater than the enjoyment from Round 1 match. That's my point. Port's win in the Ansett Cup GF last year was more enjoyable for their fans than the Round 1 match. This is proved by the crowd. It is also proved by the fact you can't buy the Round 1 game at Kmart but you can buy the Ansett Cup. You only stock what you can sell and retail stores wouldn't be able to sell a round one game would they?
Look at the crowds, look at the celebrations of the fans, look at the TV audience, and look at the retail stores stocking the Ansett Cup video (take note that they do not stock the H&A games) and you will see that an Ansett CUP GF is bigger than a Round 1 match.
Please.....PLEASE, don't say anything about "trading wins"
Okay?
The enjoyment of an Ansett Cup premiership is greater than the enjoyment from Round 1 match. That's my point. Port's win in the Ansett Cup GF last year was more enjoyable for their fans than the Round 1 match. This is proved by the crowd. It is also proved by the fact you can't buy the Round 1 game at Kmart but you can buy the Ansett Cup. You only stock what you can sell and retail stores wouldn't be able to sell a round one game would they?
Look at the crowds, look at the celebrations of the fans, look at the TV audience, and look at the retail stores stocking the Ansett Cup video (take note that they do not stock the H&A games) and you will see that an Ansett CUP GF is bigger than a Round 1 match.
Please.....PLEASE, don't say anything about "trading wins"
Okay?
Oh have a bloody look at evevy Ansett Cup win and see for yourself. Jesus Christ.
Do St.Kilda fans run onto the ground in thousands after a Home and away match? No! But they did for an Ansett Cup win. Do Port fans turn up in numbers of 35,000 for a Home and away matcn versus Brisbane? No. But they do for an Ansett Cup GF. Care to explain why?Do Crows fans feel a Round 1 game in 1995 against North Melbourne is important enough to travel the border in their THOUSANDS? No, they didn't. But they travelled the border in their thousands for the Ansett Cup GF against North Melboure seven days earlier. Can you explain why?
Perhaps you could explain to me why more Crows fans attended the 1994-95 Ansett Cup GF than any home and away match that the Crows have played in Victoria?
Why did Crows fans feel compelled to go to the 1994-95 Ansett Cup GF's, and not in the same numbers for home and away games? Answer the question.
Daniel son,
sorry to mention "trading wins" but it is actually what the post is about. It asks you to choose A or B. Of course anyone with half a brain (sorry Collingwood fans) would choose A & B thank you very much.
Trading is what it is about....if offer you a Ford Laser or a Toyota Corrolla which would you prefer ? As easy way to answer the question is to say "if you already had a Ford Laser woud you swap it for this nice shiny Toyota Corolla ?"
Now stop constraining the debate for your own purposes.
I can agree with everything you say about the enjoyment of the game....in fact I already did. However I was in fact stating that I find R1 more important....less enjoyable maybe...maybe not....but more important and therefore preferable.
Now explain to me why the Ansett Cup is more important.
Satay Mat
sorry to mention "trading wins" but it is actually what the post is about. It asks you to choose A or B. Of course anyone with half a brain (sorry Collingwood fans) would choose A & B thank you very much.
Trading is what it is about....if offer you a Ford Laser or a Toyota Corrolla which would you prefer ? As easy way to answer the question is to say "if you already had a Ford Laser woud you swap it for this nice shiny Toyota Corolla ?"
Now stop constraining the debate for your own purposes.
I can agree with everything you say about the enjoyment of the game....in fact I already did. However I was in fact stating that I find R1 more important....less enjoyable maybe...maybe not....but more important and therefore preferable.
Now explain to me why the Ansett Cup is more important.
Satay Mat
At least you admitted the FACT that an Ansett Cup win is more enjoyable than a home and away win.
To answer you r question, I consider the Ansett Cup more important the ONE H&A match, because I feel that the Ansett Cup GF is worth more than the 4.5% of the season that one H&A match is worth.
Some people say the Ansett Cup means nothing. They are wrong. It is an official compeptiton, that goes into the official history of the league, not to mention some healthy prizemoney, so yes, it does mean something as you stated earlier.
If you look at the poll response, 2/3 rd's of people disagree with your opinion Dan .
Originally posted by Dan26
At least you admitted the FACT that an Ansett Cup win is more enjoyable than a home and away win.
To answer you r question, I consider the Ansett Cup more important the ONE H&A match, because I feel that the Ansett Cup GF is worth more than the 4.5% of the season that one H&A match is worth.
Some people say the Ansett Cup means nothing. They are wrong. It is an official compeptiton, that goes into the official history of the league, not to mention some healthy prizemoney, so yes, it does mean something as you stated earlier.
The Ansett Cup means a lot....to the Ansett Cup. It is a separate competition...which I like and which has meaning.
Actually, my definition of the season is the Premiership season. The Ansett Cup has zero impact and therefore zero importance. You must define the season as including the Ansett Cup....and therefore I presume practice matches, international rules, State of Origin in order for it to have an impact.
In that case this debate will have no end. Of course I think most people would view such a definition of "The Season" as nonsense.
Nevertheless......
Satay Mat
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No he didn't. He conceded that maybe it could be, and maybe it isn't. It would depend on the home and away win, obviously.
As for FACT. Facts have to be proven, and proving the enjoyment of audiences that aren't you is impossible. You love FACTS that aren't, don't you Dan.
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