Draft Profile Liam Stocker

[Pykie]

So how else can you base your projections, other than output to this point in time? Looking at their numbers from their first year as a determining factor to track their career trajectory is absurd.

It’s not as though Stocker hasn’t shown elite attributes in his kicking skills, speed and ability in traffic either. He’s largely been restricted by his conditioning, to which he was already behind his peers at the start of the pre-season, and having to adapt to playing in defence which he showed he was capable at despite playing his entire junior career in the midfield.

What kind of numbers were Fyfe or Ablett or Dangerfield or Cripps putting up in their first years?

I didn’t mean numbers from a statistical point of view, I meant it from the numerical amount of good players in front of him and the eye test he just can’t be in the best 6 in this draft.

I think you need to stop comparing him to these types, facts of the matter is most of the other recruiters didn’t rate him there, he should be looked at as a legitimate second rounder, not a top 6 pick (which he isn’t and doesn’t look like anyway).

Like I said, I think most people would likely name 5,10 probably even 15 at this point that look like better players from that draft and would have strong arguments for those players at this point...

 

[THE_GUN]

The discussion is around who Carlton rated in their top 6 at the time of the draft. Keep up.

You clearly haven't

And this goes back to my original question and comment.

Did Carlton genuinely rate Stocker as the 6th best talent in the draft, or 6th best talent on a list needs basis, or 6th best inside/balanced mid in the draft?

I can believe 6th best mid in the draft if you rate;
Walsh
Smith
Caldwell
Duursma
Either Jackson Hately or Tarryn Thomas ahead of Stocker.

I struggle the believe 6th best talent, excluding KPP’s in regards to list needs.

There’s also a scenario where they end up overrating Stocker, as they believe he’ll be available at a pick at the back end of the first round, and he moves up their draft board as a consequence, but this phenomenon is covered much better in the Lystics AFL podcast, than I could explain here.

No Room for
View attachment 805721

Maybe follow the thread rather than just the title

 

[La Dispute]

I didn’t mean numbers from a statistical point of view, I meant it from the numerical amount of good players in front of him and the eye test he just can’t be in the best 6 in this draft.

I think you need to stop comparing him to these types, facts of the matter is most of the other recruiters didn’t rate him there, he should be looked at as a legitimate second rounder, not a top 6 pick (which he isn’t and doesn’t look like anyway).

Like I said, I think most people would likely name 5,10 probably even 15 at this point that look like better players from that draft and would have strong arguments for those players at this point...

The eye test is incredibly subjective, and doesn’t really mean anything in this context.

In terms of having players ahead; of course there are. The 2018 draft crop was ludicrously strong with a huge number of potentially elite players being taken, and there’s no cap on how many can get to the elite level - The nature of having such a strong draft is there are more opportunities to take elite players, which is why we prioritised taking a second first round pick in 2018. (Stocker is not a second round pick)

There’s no harm in comparing him to other players of his draft pool, and far too much has been made of us rating him at 6. The club would have made their shortlist (as every club does) on the basic of needs, talent ID, scope for improvement and the intangibles like competitiveness, which Stocker has in spades.

Player development also isn’t linear. Every year the top-down list from best to worst changes; players regress, some get stuck in poor systems, some get injured or lose motivation. Jaegar O’Meara, Jack Martin, Jesse Hogan and Tom Boyd are the poster children for top tier juniors never reaching their potential for various reason.

You can rattle of as many names as you want who are currently performing better than Stocker, but it’s way too early to be assuming he won’t be in the conversation as one of the better players from this draft at this point in time.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

You clearly haven't

And this goes back to my original question and comment.

Did Carlton genuinely rate Stocker as the 6th best talent in the draft, or 6th best talent on a list needs basis, or 6th best inside/balanced mid in the draft?

I can believe 6th best mid in the draft if you rate;
Walsh
Smith
Caldwell
Duursma
Either Jackson Hately or Tarryn Thomas ahead of Stocker.

I struggle the believe 6th best talent, excluding KPP’s in regards to list needs.

There’s also a scenario where they end up overrating Stocker, as they believe he’ll be available at a pick at the back end of the first round, and he moves up their draft board as a consequence, but this phenomenon is covered much better in the Lystics AFL podcast, than I could explain here.

The post you've quoted explicitly discusses Carlton's draft day rankings.

 

[THE_GUN]

The post you've quoted explicitly discusses Carlton's draft day rankings.

There were roughly 10 players mentioned in that first post and my comment was what about stack with a picture ?
You having trouble following ?

Please keep up and if you cant then dont bother quoting just move onto another thread

 

[briztoon]

There were roughly 10 players mentioned in that first post and my comment was what about stack with a picture ?
You having trouble following ?

Please keep up and if you cant then dont bother quoting just move onto another thread

You know, you’re a very rude poster.

 

[THE_GUN]

You know, you’re a very rude poster.

Have a look at his first reply

 

[Ambrosia]

You know, you’re a very rude poster.

Every post of his is “you need to include Richmond player x”

 

[La Dispute]

Yep, it was pretty obvious as to why Sydney Stack was excluded from the discussion as no team was taking him as first round draft pick.

The discussion wasn’t a retrospective ‘who do you think is the best from the 2018 draft,’ it was a discussion as to how the prospects were rated by the recruiters at the time.

 

[My name geoff]

Is pretty ludicrous tbh based on what we've seen, there's a mixture of some very consistent and some very mercurial high ceiling types in the first round that are well ahead of Stocker.

Stocker is a future captain type, midfield bull with a burst of speed, mongrel, composure and a bullet of a kick. I don't think anyone at the club is questioning the recruiters high rating of him at this stage

 

[Malifice]

Would seriously turn the blues around
. solid as tank

To turn us around we just need to turn up during the 1st quarters of games.

Only starting to play from halfway through the 2nd onward is whats killing us.

 

[Love the Drake]

A lot of talk about everyone but Stocker.

20 year old in his second year. Recruited as a prolific on baller at juniors. Contracted until the end of 2022.

Played 5 games as a HBF’r in 2019 and looked ok. Neat skills. Hard at it. Word from the club was that he had to develop his tank and defensive side of his game. Was played out of the back pocket all year in the VFL.

Not selected round 1 2020.

Word out of the club is that he has the skills, toughness and decision making abilities to play AFL, just needs to build his tank, and defensive skills. Will be selected when he ticks all these boxes.

Can see him forcing his way in to our best 22 sooner rather than later because he adds the skills and physicality that we need.

 

[GWS Goose]

I feel a bit sorry for Stocker, he faces unfair pressure due to the trade to get him.
I thought it was a good trade for them at the time (based on the assumption they rated Stocker at the time), I think it was probably worth the risk for Adelaide. It ended up being very good for Adelaide mostly due to the subsequent trade with us.
Everyone has been so focused on who "won" the trade and Stocker as become a pawn in that battle.
I think some Carlton fans "need" him to be great to win the trade, others the reverse
From where I sit, I think he looks quite a good player. He doesn't blow my socks off, but he looks like he is hard at with good skills. I think he'll probably have a decent career.

 

[footyfan1978]

A lot of talk about everyone but Stocker.

20 year old in his second year. Recruited as a prolific on baller at juniors. Contracted until the end of 2022.

Played 5 games as a HBF’r in 2019 and looked ok. Neat skills. Hard at it. Word from the club was that he had to develop his tank and defensive side of his game. Was played out of the back pocket all year in the VFL.

Not selected round 1 2020.

Word out of the club is that he has the skills, toughness and decision making abilities to play AFL, just needs to build his tank, and defensive skills. Will be selected when he ticks all these boxes.

Can see him forcing his way in to our best 22 sooner rather than later because he adds the skills and physicality that we need.

With virtually 20 minutes shaved off game time, this year, I think our coaching staff would be dumb as all **** if they do not blood Stocker in seniors for most of this season, and assume by start of 2021, Russell helps him develop this tank to be a midfielder for the full 120 minute games after another pre-season.

 

[Davo-27]

pros and cons for Stocker from what i remember

pros - he is a tall and fairly strongly built midfielder, who can win decent amount of disposals, he won the b and f for the TAC Cup comp and looked good with movement and good kicking technique

cons - his kicking looked good in technique, but he would miss targets a lot, mostly depth, kicking short or over the head of team mates, but people would always say he has good kicking, he also seemed a bit lazy at times, then when he got drafted apparently he has issues with his stamina/endurance?

all in all i think he could be an ok player at the AFL level, i rated him as a 20-35 draft prospect in 2018, pick 19 i believe was about right comparing to the talent around that part of the draft and risk/reward, Carlton were keen on him, the drama came from the trade and then the odd rating from the Carlton recruiting team, i think the trade ended up being ok for both teams over the last 2 drafts and the rating by Carltons recruiting team was just normal footy BS that you hear from every club around draft time, their kids are the best kinda public relations BS.

 

[Marcel Proust]

With virtually 20 minutes shaved off game time, this year, I think our coaching staff would be dumb as all fu** if they do not blood Stocker in seniors for most of this season, and assume by start of 2021, Russell helps him develop this tank to be a midfielder for the full 120 minute games after another pre-season.

No vfl due to due pandemic isn't ideal for guys in the stocker draft pool either

 

[Davo-27]

No vfl due to due pandemic isn't ideal for guys in the stocker draft pool either

Jack Ross didnt play VFL and he's playing tonight.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Jack Ross didnt play VFL and he's playing tonight.

If dusty was right, which hopefully he is next week. Ross probably doesn't play ones

I'm worried about RCD without vfl

 

[Marcel Proust]

Carlton make the gutsy move, I like it.

When Richmond and Hawthorn are lining up to get a silky skilled midfielder with good production it's probably not a bad pick.

The Blues need the immediate impact (next 2-3 years) in to the midfield more than they need yet another top 5 pick.

But there was another theory - Carlton should not have that trade

Stoker hasn't made the quick impact they apparently needed.

If they tanked one more season they would have Walsh and Rowell which would a ridiculous core for 15 years

They finshed about third last without tanking.

Even with pick 3 they could potentially trade up for Rowell. Or grab a Andersen type.

Obviously it doesn't matter now and that kid 5hey got with the knee injury looks quality. Hopefully he stays on 5he park

 

[footyfan1978]

No vfl due to due pandemic isn't ideal for guys in the stocker draft pool either

Exactly. Another reason to get someone you invested well into, to fast track where possible. This season is especially possible if his tank is only real query. Just get him in there asap. What I saw of him, really liked. Time to get him back now injury issue of last season is gone.

 

[1990crow]

An interesting point is that if they didn't do this trade, kept Bolton until the end of the year and committed to playing juniors finishing last.. the AFL may have given Carlton a priority pick resulting in Rowell and Anderson.

Sliding doors.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

the AFL may have given Carlton a priority pick resulting in Rowell and Anderson.

No chance.

 

[GWS Goose]

But there was another theory - Carlton should not have that trade

Stoker hasn't made the quick impact they apparently needed.

If they tanked one more season they would have Walsh and Rowell which would a ridiculous core for 15 years

They finshed about third last without tanking.

Even with pick 3 they could potentially trade up for Rowell. Or grab a Andersen type.

Obviously it doesn't matter now and that kid 5hey got with the knee injury looks quality. Hopefully he stays on 5he park

They didnt see themselves as a bottom team obviously, think that Gold coast were always going to e below them and get the help..

I reckon both teams have done well out of the trade.

Carlton turned pick 4 into Stocker, Kemp and Philp. A good return, especially considering they really rated Stocker.

Adelaide turned 19 and 9 into MaCasy (at 6 so an upgrade) and a pick likely to be in the late teens.

win/win for both teams.

And great for us, we were able to get a selection before Green and pick up another 2 top talents

 

[Soapy V]

Stocker is improving. Can find the ball and is creative. It's his endurance and work rate that is the issue. If he keeps working hard I can see him playing this year. Teague just needs to make the tough decision to back in the younger players and drop players like Betts and Murphy and that isn't easy. Needs to look to the future

 

[briztoon]

They didnt see themselves as a bottom team obviously, think that Gold coast were always going to e below them and get the help..

I reckon both teams have done well out of the trade.

Carlton turned pick 4 into Stocker, Kemp and Philp. A good return, especially considering they really rated Stocker.

Adelaide turned 19 and 9 into MaCasy (at 6 so an upgrade) and a pick likely to be in the late teens.

win/win for both teams.

And great for us, we were able to get a selection before Green and pick up another 2 top talents

Yeah, I dunno about Stocker and Philp. I believe they’re both 50/50 prospects to make it at AFL level.

Kemp I was pretty high on, until he did his ACL. The more repeat ACL injuries I see in AFL, the more gun shy I’m becoming about such players.