List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[gbatman]

We must be bored arguing about Plowman. He's not a best 22 player anymore, he has been a solid defender in a weak side that has now recruited, developed and recovered players who have gone past him.

Plowman is an old fashioned purely defensive player, still a place in a team for them but those sorts are always on limited time, they will always get overtaken by a player who can both defend and attack because they exist and they will turn up on good lists in time.

Plowman finds himself limited as a third tall defender because he's not great at zoning off and intercept marking and covering they key position players, he's not great at assisting the key defenders, he doesn't run off his man the way Marchbank and McGovern can on the rebound, does not play as tall, mark as well, read the play as well and assist they key defenders as well. You also have Kemp coming on in this area who has the speed to surpass Plowman as an attacking third tall defender. End of the day third tall defenders are offensive weapons, if they aren't they are stop gap players.

He finds himself behind the small defenders who we have a wealth of quality in, guys who can break lines, run both ways, link up and defend really well. Saad, Docherty, Newman, Boyd, Williams all well ahead here.

What he is is backup and good quality backup, get a few injuries and there are a few players he can come in for and you know he will play fairly well, he will defend well, be solid with his possessions and skills and play a neat game which is a good thing to have but he's not going to burst into the best 22 because of his offensive limits. End of the day you have to be able to defend and attack to form an elite defence which we have the potential to have and should have in 2023.

 

[gbatman]

Do we make anything of the speculation Jeremy McGovern might be interested in playing with Mitch speculation?

A year is a long time in footy, get to the end of next year and these three things eventuate: Mitch plays an injury free season, Jeremy gets fit and proves he can still play and body is fine, Carlton are a top side, West Coast are a bottom side...

I would be talking to Jeremy about a move to Carlton now but he has to get fit and prove his body is ok.

Could not see Mitch wanting to move west to play in a bottom team. Could see Jeremy wanting to go to a top side for one last crack at a flag.

Now imagine this spine.

Curnow - Coleman and AA
McKay - Coleman and AA
Cripps - Brownlow medalist
McGovern - AA and premiership player
Weitering - Probably AA by now

It's one of the best spines you will ever see. It looks like an AA spine but it's potentially Carlton's 2024 spine.

Noting against Young, he's done a fine job but a fit Lewis Young and a fit Jeremy McGovern are chalk and cheese at this stage.

I see it as a Brian Lake type scenario. I wouldn't be offering him big money or a long contract, I would be offering him one last chance to play with his brother and in a premiership. That alone is pretty strong incentive for someone who will be at the end of their career.

 

[tarczonandjane]

I disagree- both were slow. And certainly wasn’t comparing their playing levels to the current crop - I would have Hewett behind Brown on talent …

Point being that you don’t need express pace in the centre to be highly effective.

We’ve recruited/drafted to get the balance right between inside (where we are elite) and outside (where we are not yet). Pure speed is less important than high speed endurance, where we have multiple options.

I’m sorry I missed this post until now, Big Blueboy.

First things first, I absolutely agree that both Brown and Ratten were slow.

But I’m with you on the rest of your post. There are definitely recent premiership sides who have won without pace in the middle. This shouldn’t be taken as an argument against pace (I would love some pace as a point of difference), but that endurance you discuss is key.

I’m more interested to see whether a side can win a flag without great kicking skills. Because that’s where I think our side is deficient. I’m hoping a more coherent game plan can help overcome this. But we’ll see.

 

[Doro]

I’m sorry I missed this post until now, Big Blueboy.

First things first, I absolutely agree that both Brown and Ratten were slow.

But I’m with you on the rest of your post. There are definitely recent premiership sides who have won without pace in the middle. This shouldn’t be taken as an argument against pace (I would love some pace as a point of difference), but that endurance you discuss is key.

I’m more interested to see whether a side can win a flag without great kicking skills. Because that’s where I think our side is deficient. I’m hoping a more coherent game plan can help overcome this. But we’ll see.

I'd say the Tigers picked up 3 flags without being a great kicking side. Chaos ball was all speed and pressure. The Cats definitely like the good kicks in their side though.

 

[Jeremias]

Do we make anything of the speculation Jeremy McGovern might be interested in playing with Mitch speculation?

A year is a long time in footy, get to the end of next year and these three things eventuate: Mitch plays an injury free season, Jeremy gets fit and proves he can still play and body is fine, Carlton are a top side, West Coast are a bottom side...

I would be talking to Jeremy about a move to Carlton now but he has to get fit and prove his body is ok.

Could not see Mitch wanting to move west to play in a bottom team. Could see Jeremy wanting to go to a top side for one last crack at a flag.

Now imagine this spine.

Curnow - Coleman and AA
McKay - Coleman and AA
Cripps - Brownlow medalist
McGovern - AA and premiership player
Weitering - Probably AA by now

It's one of the best spines you will ever see. It looks like an AA spine but it's potentially Carlton's 2024 spine.

Noting against Young, he's done a fine job but a fit Lewis Young and a fit Jeremy McGovern are chalk and cheese at this stage.

I see it as a Brian Lake type scenario. I wouldn't be offering him big money or a long contract, I would be offering him one last chance to play with his brother and in a premiership. That alone is pretty strong incentive for someone who will be at the end of their career.

McGovern is contracted on big money until the end of 2023. The only way he moves anywhere is if he agrees to forego a part of it because there's no club in the country that would take it on in its entirety.

Lake did it when he moved from the Dogs to Hawthorn. I don't think McGovern has the same motivation. He's already won a flag.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Do we make anything of the speculation Jeremy McGovern might be interested in playing with Mitch speculation?

A year is a long time in footy, get to the end of next year and these three things eventuate: Mitch plays an injury free season, Jeremy gets fit and proves he can still play and body is fine, Carlton are a top side, West Coast are a bottom side...

I would be talking to Jeremy about a move to Carlton now but he has to get fit and prove his body is ok.

Could not see Mitch wanting to move west to play in a bottom team. Could see Jeremy wanting to go to a top side for one last crack at a flag.

Now imagine this spine.

Curnow - Coleman and AA
McKay - Coleman and AA
Cripps - Brownlow medalist
McGovern - AA and premiership player
Weitering - Probably AA by now

It's one of the best spines you will ever see. It looks like an AA spine but it's potentially Carlton's 2024 spine.

Noting against Young, he's done a fine job but a fit Lewis Young and a fit Jeremy McGovern are chalk and cheese at this stage.

I see it as a Brian Lake type scenario. I wouldn't be offering him big money or a long contract, I would be offering him one last chance to play with his brother and in a premiership. That alone is pretty strong incentive for someone who will be at the end of their career.

No - it will be impossible to read the injury thread with 2 McGovs on our list and Andrew Russell’s crucifixion will be all to easy.

 

[katmanblue]

McGovern is contracted on big money until the end of 2023. The only way he moves anywhere is if he agrees to forego a part of it because there's no club in the country that would take it on in its entirety.

Lake did it when he moved from the Dogs to Hawthorn. I don't think McGovern has the same motivation. He's already won a flag.

We are talking about a move after 2023.

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[Jeremias]

We are talking about a move after 2023.

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Ha. Of course we are.

Still a big no for me. Jeremy has been a terrific player over a long period of time, but the solution to a bulging injury list is not to bring in more players who routinely spend time on the sidelines.

 

[gbatman]

McGovern is contracted on big money until the end of 2023. The only way he moves anywhere is if he agrees to forego a part of it because there's no club in the country that would take it on in its entirety.

Lake did it when he moved from the Dogs to Hawthorn. I don't think McGovern has the same motivation. He's already won a flag.

But what has it cost us? I fail to see how it's cost us anything. We don't have salary cap issues, it hasn't cost us any significant player.

 

[Jeremias]

But what has it cost us? I fail to see how it's cost us anything. We don't have salary cap issues, it hasn't cost us any significant player.

What hasn't?

 

[Post padding]

Do we make anything of the speculation Jeremy McGovern might be interested in playing with Mitch speculation?

A year is a long time in footy, get to the end of next year and these three things eventuate: Mitch plays an injury free season, Jeremy gets fit and proves he can still play and body is fine, Carlton are a top side, West Coast are a bottom side...

I would be talking to Jeremy about a move to Carlton now but he has to get fit and prove his body is ok.

Could not see Mitch wanting to move west to play in a bottom team. Could see Jeremy wanting to go to a top side for one last crack at a flag.

Now imagine this spine.

Curnow - Coleman and AA
McKay - Coleman and AA
Cripps - Brownlow medalist
McGovern - AA and premiership player
Weitering - Probably AA by now

It's one of the best spines you will ever see. It looks like an AA spine but it's potentially Carlton's 2024 spine.

Noting against Young, he's done a fine job but a fit Lewis Young and a fit Jeremy McGovern are chalk and cheese at this stage.

I see it as a Brian Lake type scenario. I wouldn't be offering him big money or a long contract, I would be offering him one last chance to play with his brother and in a premiership. That alone is pretty strong incentive for someone who will be at the end of their career.

No


Hasn’t played two good games in a row since their premiership year.


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[4flagsin5yrs]

It is terrible news re. Walshy but best it is fixed now and he is given all the time he needs to recover 100%.
if that is 2nd half of season then so be it.

This is a golden opportunity for Paddy Dow to step up IMO. So glad we held onto him.

We only held onto Dow because no one wanted him....

I hope Paddy makes it.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

It is terrible news re. Walshy but best it is fixed now and he is given all the time he needs to recover 100%.
if that is 2nd half of season then so be it.

This is a golden opportunity for Paddy Dow to step up IMO. So glad we held onto him.

Looking forward to see Dow, Carroll, Philp and Cunners given a decent go in their best positions next season if injuries open up opportunities.
I really can't see the need to play first year players with these blokes waiting next in line.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Looking forward to see Dow, Carroll, Philp and Cunners given a decent go in their best positions next season if injuries open up opportunities.
I really can't see the need to play first year players with these blokes waiting next in line.

Depends if the first year players are better. I wouldn't put a ceiling on them.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Depends if the first year players are better. I wouldn't put a ceiling on them.

That might be true? But we'll never know the true ceiling of the players we've already invested in without giving them a block of games. Without being relegated for lack of confidence or fear of making an error.(I forgot to include Kemp in the list also)

 

[TENACIOUS]

Not sure why all the Plowman negativity...

Doubt Plowman will be a starting best 22 player anymore...
But he is great, cheap, afl quality depth to have on our list in the event of any injuries...

Has achieved much more than Kemp at the same age, who is highly rated here without achieving much...

 

[ray8182]

Not sure why all the Plowman negativity...

Doubt Plowman will be a starting best 22 player anymore...
But he is great, cheap, afl quality depth to have on our list in the event of any injuries...

Has achieved much more than Kemp at the same age, who is highly rated here without achieving much...

You sure about that. Plowman had a lot of injuries early on at Gws. I don’t remember him doing much in first 3 years.


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[Benaly28]

I think our backline is the most interesting discussion topic heading in to next year.

In my opinion, I think our best back-line looks something like this:

FB: Docherty Weitering McGovern
HBF: Saad Young Williams
I/C: Marchbank

That leaves:
Durdin
Boyd
Newman
Plowman
Kemp
Cowan

In my view, that’s too many defenders, especially when some have the ability to push further up the field.

I’ve always said that, when fully fit, I’d love to see Marchbank on the wing. IIRC, he lined up on the wing in one of the round 1 games vs Richmond. It was either 2017 or 2018 and he racked up 20-something disposals and looked good on the wing. Given our lack of wingers and abundance of defenders, I’d love to see Marchy tried on the wing.

The other interesting one is Docherty. Lined up in the midfield in the latter stages of this season and held his own. Will we give him a pre-season in the midfield group learning that caper and then push him further up the field next year?

Newman - could he be a winger? Generally a good user of the ball, just not sure if he has the tank to be on the wing all day.

Boyd - I really like this guy and think he has a really bright future ahead of him. However, he adds more intrigue in our backline line-up because I can’t see us having Boyd, Doch and Saad in the same back-line. All too similar and not versatile enough (in terms of all being able to play tall or small).

Really keen to see how our backline looks this year and whether any players are tried elsewhere, further up the field.

What do you guys think?

I think you’ll find Boyd and Cowan will be major players this year.

Doc IMO will play midfield most of the year.


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[teddy-hopkins]

carlton "supporter" going to the utmost lengths to show how unsupportable a carlton player is.............

You always seem to confuse being a follower of the carlton football club with having a positive opinion of every player on the list.

When you support the club sometimes that includes having an opinion that a player isn't good enough for our club.

Stop looking down your nose at people with a negative opinion on a player.

 

[thylacine60]

You always seem to confuse being a follower of the carlton football club with having a positive opinion of every player on the list.

When you support the club sometimes that includes having an opinion that a player isn't good enough for our club.

Stop looking down your nose at people with a negative opinion on a player.

There are posters who support in a mostly positive manner. Others, such as yourself, believe criticizing somehow makes them more invested in the club. Just as at the game, my preference is for the former. Stick to your bleating, I'll call it out anytime I like. Next......

 

[Gethelred]

Don't really care what a player does, unless it benefits the team as a whole

Walsh has attributes that are rare, his work ethic, will to get to the next contest, courage, wanting the ball in his hands, are unquestionable

IMHO, he needs to work on and or get back to what benefits the team. Give the early hand pass, then work hard to get the ball back, which will create overlap. When kicking, rather than head down and launching long, he needs to look for shorter to mid range targets. Stop trying to take on so many players

While this is from a while ago now, I really think that Walsh trying to take players on is a coaching directive. All of our mids do it, and it works due to size; Hewitt, Kennedy, Cripps, Cerra. There's also an emphasis in the way we do stoppages to release only once you've drawn the player and that leads to sometimes getting caught.

The best midfield performances in which we utterly dominated opposition were derived from midfield dominance to win not just a clearance but clear ball exiting from the side of the stoppage nearest to the goals. Take distance running because you're clear, and hit a target 40m away; you've now taken (depending on how far you ran) 50-60m very quickly. Ball went from being in contest to being in your forward line without time to get behind it.

The other side of it is, Walsh isn't always going to be the size/shape he is now. Are you going to sacrifice what he could be for what he is now? Teach him and play him in the right way, and see when/if he gets there. Let him continue to try to find a way through, and he'll do it.

You don't make Gary Ablett Jnr or Dustin Martin by teaching them to only play to their strengths. You challenge them to be better than they are, and you force them to grow into the player they could be. Richmond spent an entire season - 2016 - playing 'give it to Dusty' to force him to go more often; I'd imagine the messaging there to him would have been, "They're looking for you, if you don't go they get nailed." It turned him from a powerful forward into the player he became.

 

[blue healer]

While this is from a while ago now, I really think that Walsh trying to take players on is a coaching directive. All of our mids do it, and it works due to size; Hewitt, Kennedy, Cripps, Cerra. There's also an emphasis in the way we do stoppages to release only once you've drawn the player and that leads to sometimes getting caught.

The best midfield performances in which we utterly dominated opposition were derived from midfield dominance to win not just a clearance but clear ball exiting from the side of the stoppage nearest to the goals. Take distance running because you're clear, and hit a target 40m away; you've now taken (depending on how far you ran) 50-60m very quickly. Ball went from being in contest to being in your forward line without time to get behind it.

The other side of it is, Walsh isn't always going to be the size/shape he is now. Are you going to sacrifice what he could be for what he is now? Teach him and play him in the right way, and see when/if he gets there. Let him continue to try to find a way through, and he'll do it.

You don't make Gary Ablett Jnr or Dustin Martin by teaching them to only play to their strengths. You challenge them to be better than they are, and you force them to grow into the player they could be. Richmond spent an entire season - 2016 - playing 'give it to Dusty' to force him to go more often; I'd imagine the messaging there to him would have been, "They're looking for you, if you don't go they get nailed." It turned him from a powerful forward into the player he became.

I haven't posted for a while but this post interests me.

Re the bolded, the other side of that coin is why would you risk sacrificing what he is, and probably going to be, for what could jeopardize that?

Walsh was AA at 21 and 4th in the Brownlow (with more votes than Cripps won it with this year) in a season where we won 8 games and were supposedly so badly coached that we sacked almost our entire coaching staff. I really don't know if they tried but, if so, why would you try to change the way he played in your first year as coach when he's coming off a season like that?

It would have been a very brave coach who tried to change Steve Smith's batting style when he was the indisputable number one.

If ever I've seen a player with in built motivational levels it's Walsh and I wouldn't try to tweak that too much.

 

[katmanblue]

We only held onto Dow because no one wanted him....

I hope Paddy makes it.

No one wanted to pay his contract.

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[thylacine60]

did we shop andy walker around there for a while?

 

[Gethelred]

I haven't posted for a while but this post interests me.

Re the bolded, the other side of that coin is why would you risk sacrificing what he is, and probably going to be, for what could jeopardize that?

Walsh was AA at 21 and 4th in the Brownlow (with more votes than Cripps won it with this year) in a season where we won 8 games and were supposedly so badly coached that we sacked almost our entire coaching staff. I really don't know if they tried but, if so, why would you try to change the way he played in your first year as coach when he's coming off a season like that?

It would have been a very brave coach who tried to change Steve Smith's batting style when he was the indisputable number one.

If ever I've seen a player with in built motivational levels it's Walsh and I wouldn't try to tweak that too much.

But that's the thing: you're not tweaking his motivation, just his method. He's going to naturally become bigger and stronger because that is what undertaking AFL preseasons does to you. He's going to put on muscle and he's going to be stronger year on year until he reaches a peak, and when he gets there he's going to be able to break tackles/give off handballs he can't now.

His excellent year under Teague was more to do (IMO) with how Teague empowered certain players rather than used a hard gameplan. Certain players were given licences to do whatever they could in the moment to try and elevate their team (Walsh, Cripps, Docherty, Jones, Weitering, Martin, Betts) where everyone else's roles were to support these players. Get the ball to the movers and shakers, then they drag us over the line. This had a positive effect on some players (Walsh, Jones, Weitering, Martin) and had a negative effect on others (Curnow, Dow, O'Brien, Cripps, Docherty). Under Teague, Walsh flew because he was told he was the only thing between victory and loss. He was told that if he succeeded we succeeded; take every shot, win every ball, execute every kick. Carry the team on your back. As you say, his motivation is exceptional.

Now, the next question is, if it's that simple why not tell him that every time he goes out there? It's pretty ****ing clear what happens when you do that: Cripps' back issues, Walsh's injuries since. Don't put it all on player's shoulders, and they won't kill themselves to try and be the difference. Motivation to win is one thing; treating such as life and death is quite another.

The difference is method rather than motivation. Change his method to suit where he will be - don't shove a square peg in a round hole, but make each player grow as a season progresses - as opposed to where he is now.

As you say, Walsh is already - arguably - our best player. Let's see if he can get even better.