List Mgmt. List Management 2022

[blue healer]

But that's the thing: you're not tweaking his motivation, just his method. He's going to naturally become bigger and stronger because that is what undertaking AFL preseasons does to you. He's going to put on muscle and he's going to be stronger year on year until he reaches a peak, and when he gets there he's going to be able to break tackles/give off handballs he can't now.

His excellent year under Teague was more to do (IMO) with how Teague empowered certain players rather than used a hard gameplan. Certain players were given licences to do whatever they could in the moment to try and elevate their team (Walsh, Cripps, Docherty, Jones, Weitering, Martin, Betts) where everyone else's roles were to support these players. Get the ball to the movers and shakers, then they drag us over the line. This had a positive effect on some players (Walsh, Jones, Weitering, Martin) and had a negative effect on others (Curnow, Dow, O'Brien, Cripps, Docherty). Under Teague, Walsh flew because he was told he was the only thing between victory and loss. He was told that if he succeeded we succeeded; take every shot, win every ball, execute every kick. Carry the team on your back. As you say, his motivation is exceptional.

Now, the next question is, if it's that simple why not tell him that every time he goes out there? It's pretty ******* clear what happens when you do that: Cripps' back issues, Walsh's injuries since. Don't put it all on player's shoulders, and they won't kill themselves to try and be the difference. Motivation to win is one thing; treating such as life and death is quite another.

The difference is method rather than motivation. Change his method to suit where he will be - don't shove a square peg in a round hole, but make each player grow as a season progresses - as opposed to where he is now.

As you say, Walsh is already - arguably - our best player. Let's see if he can get even better.

Sorry, you lose me when making up a version of what Walsh was told by the previous coach and then trying to link that with an injury sustained the next February in match simulation.

I could just as easily state that the reason for the preseason injury was because they tried to change the way he was to play. That wouldn't be right but it's no less feasible than your scenario.

And for what it's worth Walsh will get better regardless of coaching instructions. That's just Walsh.

 

[Gethelred]

Sorry, you lose me when making up a version of what Walsh was told by the previous coach and then trying to link that with an injury sustained the next February in match simulation.

I could just as easily state that the reason for the preseason injury was because they tried to change the way he was to play. That wouldn't be right but it's no less feasible than your scenario.

And for what it's worth Walsh will get better regardless of coaching instructions. That's just Walsh.

Did you miss the IMO in there?

I'm not a physio or a doctor. My background is in different sports, but overuse is a pretty common thing.

In any case, here's hoping that we see him return to a similar level to 2021.

 

[blue healer]

Did you miss the IMO in there?

I'm not a physio or a doctor. My background is in different sports, but overuse is a pretty common thing.

In any case, here's hoping that we see him return to a similar level to 2021.

Sorry, missed the IMO but I still reckon your scenario is a pretty big reach

Also, as any Carlton supporter knows, injuries in pre season are a pretty common thing as well.

BTW he still had a very good year given the early injury setback. Very high bar set for Washy.

 

[gbatman]

What hasn't?

McGovern's contract or any other players contract. It hasn't cost us any significant potential recruits, existing players or created salary cap or list management issues. I don't see what the problem people have with McGovern's contract it's cost us nothing. If anything it probably helped us meet out TPP at the time a keep our future stars salaries in check.

 

[Coona Blues]

McGovern's contract or any other players contract. It hasn't cost us any significant potential recruits, existing players or created salary cap or list management issues. I don't see what the problem people have with McGovern's contract it's cost us nothing. If anything it probably helped us meet out TPP at the time a keep our future stars salaries in check.

Absolutely crazy logic.

We have never received “bang for buck” from McGovern. He was recruited on big bucks based on cameos (and probably Teague recommendation). With the McKay, Curnow, Silvagni (and later TDK) group in development, along with Levi to support, he was never the “need” he was promoted as. We overpaid significantly, and from reports was in a pretty “flat” contract, without the significant front ending of others.

I happily concede that a fit McGovern makes us a better side coming out of defence. Unfortunately, not in the role he was recruited for. Hardly the forward “mentor” we needed. Your slant on things seems very skewed.

His situation beyond 2023 will be fascinating. Even if he has a stellar season, for mine, will still owe the club significantly. Unlike others, his injuries are as much his own doing as “bad luck”. Failure to prepare, and all that rhetoric. Surely his contract will be significantly reduced, and simply, more of the same will result in no contract offer at all.

One of those players who is an asset when fit, but is a bit of a luxury priced bonus, particularly if Marchbank can get his injury issues sorted and more significantly for mine, Kemp continues to develop as expected. The addition of Cowan suggests that we are looking at generation next in defence already, despite Doc, Saad, Williams and even Newman having multiple seasons in front of them.

I hope I am wrong, but McGovern has been rumoured to be looking at a return to his wife’s home state of SA or even joining his big brother for a season or two “somewhere” (won’t get that indulgence with us). I find it hard to see him remaining on two or three hundred thousand less per season. I don’t see us overpaying to keep him either, when we are signing others on salaries below market value.

By your logic we should have kept the petulant Stocker on a decent contract based on ability over output. BTW will be a tough year for Paddy Dow. His inflated contract (some rumours have it as high as $500k) against his output will mean we are more invested in Carroll and the draftees, even Ed and perhaps a released Kemp could be prioritised (apologies to Philp, Honey and Fog who haven’t had a good run at it either). Doc likely will have midfield time to accommodate our oversupply of half backs. Dow is a decent (or better) ball winner, but will have to find the will and capacity to work off the ball to continue his career here or elsewhere.

I don’t wish to “knock” any of our players, but the above are pragmatic views of where they are at going forward.

 

[Blue Flame]

Absolutely crazy logic.

We have never received “bang for buck” from McGovern. He was recruited on big bucks based on cameos (and probably Teague recommendation). With the McKay, Curnow, Silvagni (and later TDK) group in development, along with Levi to support, he was never the “need” he was promoted as. We overpaid significantly, and from reports was in a pretty “flat” contract, without the significant front ending of others.

I happily concede that a fit McGovern makes us a better side coming out of defence. Unfortunately, not in the role he was recruited for. Hardly the forward “mentor” we needed. Your slant on things seems very skewed.

His situation beyond 2023 will be fascinating. Even if he has a stellar season, for mine, will still owe the club significantly. Unlike others, his injuries are as much his own doing as “bad luck”. Failure to prepare, and all that rhetoric. Surely his contract will be significantly reduced, and simply, more of the same will result in no contract offer at all.

One of those players who is an asset when fit, but is a bit of a luxury priced bonus, particularly if Marchbank can get his injury issues sorted and more significantly for mine, Kemp continues to develop as expected. The addition of Cowan suggests that we are looking at generation next in defence already, despite Doc, Saad, Williams and even Newman having multiple seasons in front of them.

I hope I am wrong, but McGovern has been rumoured to be looking at a return to his wife’s home state of SA or even joining his big brother for a season or two “somewhere” (won’t get that indulgence with us). I find it hard to see him remaining on two or three hundred thousand less per season. I don’t see us overpaying to keep him either, when we are signing others on salaries below market value.

By your logic we should have kept the petulant Stocker on a decent contract based on ability over output. BTW will be a tough year for Paddy Dow. His inflated contract (some rumours have it as high as $500k) against his output will mean we are more invested in Carroll and the draftees, even Ed and perhaps a released Kemp could be prioritised (apologies to Philp, Honey and Fog who haven’t had a good run at it either). Doc likely will have midfield time to accommodate our oversupply of half backs. Dow is a decent (or better) ball winner, but will have to find the will and capacity to work off the ball to continue his career here or elsewhere.

I don’t wish to “knock” any of our players, but the above are pragmatic views of where they are at going forward.

It’s worth keeping in mind that you have no idea what kind of forward mentor he’s been unless you know the players. It’s equally possible that his advice and mentorship is what helped Harry and Charlie develop.

Or not. I’m also guessing.

His injury history has meant he hasn’t always performed on field, but let’s not take potshots at other elements of his character.

 

[Coona Blues]

McGovern's contract or any other players contract. It hasn't cost us any significant potential recruits, existing players or created salary cap or list management issues. I don't see what the problem people have with McGovern's contract it's cost us nothing. If anything it probably helped us meet out TPP at the time a keep our future stars salaries in check.

I have more faith in our rucks than most, but I could have gotten behind circa pick 27 for Brodie Grundy with the ‘pies paying a massive part of his contract, or maybe get in the mix for the Jack Bowes and #7 trade gift to the Cats.

Overpaying absolutely costs us something. We gifted Will Setterfield to * due to cap issues. While he would almost certainly remain fringe for us, you can bookmark that he will be a great acquisition for the Bombers.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

There are posters who support in a mostly positive manner. Others, such as yourself, believe criticizing somehow makes them more invested in the club. Just as at the game, my preference is for the former. Stick to your bleating, I'll call it out anytime I like. Next......

Bit of projection there. I don't think I'm better than other supporters or more invested.

To have any sort of discussion there has to be some balance surely? Otherwise this is just fanboy gushing which is a pointless.

 

[Love the Drake]

Currently watching the Carlton v Melbourne match in 2019. Boy, has our team (and coaching staff) changed dramatically.

Kruez
Murph
Simmo
Caz
Daisy
SPS
Gibbons
Jones
Setterfield
Dow
Lang
A very young Walsh
A very little Fish
An aerobically challenged Kennedy
McGovern forward

No Curnow, McKay, Cripps, Doc, Hewett, DeKoning, Pittonet, Martin, Cuningham, Durdin, Cerra, Cottrell, Motlop.

I don’t miss the Jones brain fades ( knowing when to go/when to stay on your player).
I don’t miss the Plowman clangers.
I don’t miss how slow SPS was and how many times he missed targets with his 20 metre kicks.
I don’t miss Murph not sticking tackles.
I won’t miss Setterfield corralling and slowness in decision making.

Silvagni BOG in the first half playing as a utility/high half forward - could be a real bonus playing him exclusively as our third tall forward now that we can play 2 rucks with the extra sub.

Ed C running all day was nice to see. Will also be a bonus this year as depth/cover.

Overall our list has improved significantly in depth, quality and decision makers.

It’s up to Vossy and his team of coaches to make the most of what we’ve got.

 

[teddy-hopkins]

I have more faith in our rucks than most, but I could have gotten behind circa pick 27 for Brodie Grundy with the ‘pies paying a massive part of his contract, or maybe get in the mix for the Jack Bowes and #7 trade gift to the Cats.

Overpaying absolutely costs us something. We gifted Will Setterfield to * due to cap issues. While he would almost certainly remain fringe for us, you can bookmark that he will be a great acquisition for the Bombers.

We definitely overpaid for Gov but he joined when nobody else would and we'd have seriously struggled to reach 92% of the cap. I would imagine the bulk of his contract was brought forward so not really a massive factor these days.

Even when we got Jack Martin we were way under the cap so could pay the bulk of his contract in year 1.

The Williams contract probably cost us far more as we'd wouldn't have been able to prepay and there were other targets we could have used that money for who were less injury prone.

None of the three have had great injury runs which raises the question about targeting injury prone players.

Either way if all 3 play in a flag this season nobody will give a sh!t about any of the above.

 

[BlueGum]

Bit of projection there. I don't think I'm better than other supporters or more invested.

To have any sort of discussion there has to be some balance surely? Otherwise this is just fanboy gushing which is a pointless.

But you're not belittling opinions that differ from yours?

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I have more faith in our rucks than most, but I could have gotten behind circa pick 27 for Brodie Grundy with the ‘pies paying a massive part of his contract, or maybe get in the mix for the Jack Bowes and #7 trade gift to the Cats.

Overpaying absolutely costs us something. We gifted Will Setterfield to * due to cap issues. While he would almost certainly remain fringe for us, you can bookmark that he will be a great acquisition for the Bombers.

Collingwood never would have traded Grundy to us for mates rates like they did the Dees though.

 

[Jeremias]

2023 is here and so is a brand new thread - head over there to continue the discussion!

List Mgmt. - 2023 List Management