Expansion Making State of Origin work

[genghiskhan]

I can't imagine a better form of promotion than State of Origin. It would promote a national image for Australian football and erode some of the Melbourne associations that are a liability in the northern states. It would also bring Australia together.

As a watcher of many sports, the reasons given for its failure don't make much sense to me as they don't seem to hinder other sports. These reasons include:

Six states is harder to work with than two - Maybe so, but five states is also more interesting than two. Think of Six Nations Rugby. Having a lot of teams adds to the appeal, even if some of those teams (Italy, Scotland) are not really competitive.

Clubs suffer by giving up players - Yes a player can get injured, but in rugby league clubs like their players being involved. It adds to the players promotional appeal, and helps their development as they are playing at a more elite level. If anything, contributing lots of players to a state of origin team is advantageous because it is a way of broadening supporter base.

Australian football players come from a more diverse background and this makes it harder to fit them into teams - Rugby league players come from the pacific Islands and New Zealand. Some also come from WA. Either selection policy is adapted to make them eligible for a state team or they just don't play.

So what could be done to make state of origin work? What kind of structure would work? How do you persuade the players and clubs to have a good attitude towards it?

 

[El_Scorcho]

The promotion demotion idea seems to be the best IMO.

One round of games every year. If you lose you drop down, if you win you go up. Play it in 1 of 2 midseason breaks.

Season 1 might be:

Victoria v WA
SA v QLD/NT
NSW/ACT vs Tassie

The next season would be

Vic v SA
WA v Tassie
QLD/NT v NSW/ACT

etc.

Only takes one weekend, and you get 3 games. The problem is getting players to play, and clubs to allow them to play.

I figure they can solve that problem by offering cash prizes for every player a club has selected in the SOO comp.

Say, 100,000 a player. The AFL hands Geelong 100,000 for each of the 18 odd players it would get into these teams. Hard to say no to. Rewards clubs who produce SOO level players, and gives clubs insentive to release them.

and there is my idea.

 

[genghiskhan]

The promotion demotion idea seems to be the best IMO.

One round of games every year. If you lose you drop down, if you win you go up. Play it in 1 of 2 midseason breaks.

Season 1 might be:

Victoria v WA
SA v QLD/NT
NSW/ACT vs Tassie

The next season would be

Vic v SA
WA v Tassie
QLD/NT v NSW/ACT

etc.

Only takes one weekend, and you get 3 games. The problem is getting players to play, and clubs to allow them to play.

I figure they can solve that problem by offering cash prizes for every player a club has selected in the SOO comp.

Say, 100,000 a player. The AFL hands Geelong 100,000 for each of the 18 odd players it would get into these teams. Hard to say no to. Rewards clubs who produce SOO level players, and gives clubs insentive to release them.

and there is my idea.

Good idea with the promotion relegation. What about having the top four being in a semi-final and then meeting in a final. The two losers then play not to be relegated?

Rewarding clubs that produce players sounds good as well. Maybe all profits can be given to the clubs with their cut being determined by how many players they contributed. It could even be used for salary cap relief. If a star player is making some money out of origin, as well as gaining some endorsements from being in it, they wouldn't need so much money from the club.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

Agree totally Genghis. This from one of my threads on the main board:

Okay, so NT has just as many players in the AFL as Tassie. But its all right. I can add them too!

All right, let me simplify this for you, reading back on it it looks pretty complicated. Which it is not.


For the first season only, the six states + the NT is ranked from 1>7. The rankings for the next season and beyond will be decided by the matches.

Like this:
Victoria - with 334 players in the AFL are 1st
WA - 124 -- 2nd
SA - 113 -- 3rd
QLD - 50 -- 4th
NSW - 38 -- 5th
NT - 25 -- 6th
TAS - 24 -- 7th


I've changed my mind about the mid-season break. I think a fort-night, before any afl practice games would be ideal. I mean, what better way to end the footy drought than with two weekends of State of Origin? And no clubs can have a ____ing whinge.


The first weekend will consist of 3 matches (2nd v 3rd, 4th v 5th, 6th v 7th)

The second weekend will consist of 3 matches. (including the final)


So first weekend would look like this:

SA v WA-------> South Australia wins (example)

QLD v NSW-----> Queensland wins

NT v TAS-------> Tasmania wins

Victoria go straight to the final as they are the 1st ranked state. After the first State of Origin the reigning champion will go straight to the final.

And the second weekend will look like this:

NSW v TAS------> Tasmania wins (example). Take NSWs spot for 5th.

WA v QLD-------> Queensland wins. Takes WAs spot for 3rd.
final
VIC v SA--------> South Australia wins. Takes VICs spot for 1st (champion)


And the rankings are now like this:

1 - South Australia
2 - Victoria
3 - Queensland
4 - Western Australia
5 - Tasmania
6 - New South Wales
7 - Northern Territory



So the next year would look like this:

Week 1

VIC vs QLD--------> Victoria wins (example remember! )

WA vs TAS--------> Western Australia wins

NSW vs NT--------> New South Wales wins

Week 2

TAS vs NSW-------> New South Wales wins. Takes Tassies spot for 5th.

QLD vs WA--------> Western Australia wins. Takes Qlds spot for 3rd.
final
SA vs VIC---------> Victoria wins. Takes SAs spot for...? Thats right. 1st.

And now the ranking look like this:
1 - Victoria
2 - South Australia
3 - Western Australia
4 - Queensland
5 - New South Wales
6 - Tasmania
7 - Northern Territory




Just incase you're not getting it, I'll add the next year.

Week 1

SA vs WA---------> Western Australia wins

QLD vs NSW------> New South Wales wins

TAS vs NT--------> Northern Territory wins

Week 2

QLD vs NT--------> Northern T wins. Takes qlds spot for 5th.

SA vs NSW-------> NSW wins. Takes SAs spot for 3rd.

VIC vs WA--------> VIC wins. Stays number 1.

So....:

1 - Victoria
2 - Western Australia
3 - New South Wales
4 - South Australia
5 - Northern Territory
6 - Queensland
7 - Tasmania




Get it?



6 games. All states play another state that is either directly above them, or directly below them, so there would be less blow-outs. Would be ____ing brilliant.


Can anyone do the next season for me?

 

[pulkrevolvingdoors]

You could possibly have Vic Metro and Vic Country to even up the sides a bit, and to get an even 8.

I'm not too sure though. Vic, SA, WA and All-Stars (the rest) seems the more plausible to keep SOO going for the long run. And if development really kicks off in Queensland and NSW then they can eventually get their own teams.

 

[genghiskhan]

Agree totally Genghis. This from one of my threads on the main board:

Concerns

1) every year, only three states are in the running to win.
2) The best state is only likely to play one game a year. Ideally, they would play more as this state is also likely to have the most supporters.

How about

1) Combine NT with Queensland or SA just as you have combined ACT with NSW. That gets rid of the problem of uneven numbers.
2) Top four teams play in semi-final and meet in final. Losers play each other to retain rank in top four.
3)Bottom top sides play each other twice. If finish with one win each, percentage is used.
4) Tasmania is always guaranteed to play at home. This would guarantee the state two professional games a year. It would almost guarantee strong crowd support which would be good for the image of he competition, and it would provide some compensation for the unlikely chance of Tasmania ever getting an AFL team.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

Concerns

1) every year, only three states are in the running to win.
2) The best state is only likely to play one game a year. Ideally, they would play more as this state is also likely to have the most supporters.

How about

1) Combine NT with Queensland or SA just as you have combined ACT with NSW. That gets rid of the problem of uneven numbers.
2) Top four teams play in semi-final and meet in final. Losers play each other to retain rank in top four.
3)Bottom top sides play each other twice. If finish with one win each, percentage is used.
4) Tasmania is always guaranteed to play at home. This would guarantee the state two professional games a year. It would almost guarantee strong crowd support which would be good for the image of he competition, and it would provide some compensation for the unlikely chance of Tasmania ever getting an AFL team.

The thing about merging NT with Queensland is, they have as many players in the AFL as Tassie does. Just doesn't seem fair. New South Wales wouldn't like it either I bet.

But i suppose if we have a top 4, why not have the bottom 3 play 2 games each? Decided on % if need be? But i dare say the winner of the bottom 3 would also want the chance to get promoted into the top 4, so they would have to play one of the top 4 or something.

Can you draw up the schedule?

 

[genghiskhan]

The thing about merging NT with Queensland is, they have as many players in the AFL as Tassie does. Just doesn't seem fair. New South Wales wouldn't like it either I bet.

But i suppose if we have a top 4, why not have the bottom 3 play 2 games each? Decided on % if need be? But i dare say the winner of the bottom 3 would also want the chance to get promoted into the top 4, so they would have to play one of the top 4 or something.

Can you draw up the schedule?

I think one of the concerns from the likes of Brisbane was that they would have to contribute too many players to the origin team. Even though it is not really fair, it lessens that problem. In any case, NSW has ACT.


Maybe week 1

Vic vs WA
SA vs NT/Queens
Tas vs NSW - (Hobart)

week 2
Vic vs Queens/NT
SA vs WA
Tas vs NSW

Six games in Total
Played on two weekends
About 30 per cent of players involved.

The other issue is how to persuade the clubs. I seriously think it is short-sightedness that they don't support it now. Its good for player development and promotion and this compensates for the chance of a player getting injured. Maybe you can provide salary cap relief for clubs that contribute players.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

I think one of the concerns from the likes of Brisbane was that they would have to contribute too many players to the origin team. Even though it is not really fair, it lessens that problem. In any case, NSW has ACT.


Maybe week 1

Vic vs WA
SA vs NT/Queens
Tas vs NSW - (Hobart)

week 2
Vic vs Queens/NT
SA vs WA
Tas vs NSW

Six games in Total
Played on two weekends
About 30 per cent of players involved.

The other issue is how to persuade the clubs. I seriously think it is short-sightedness that they don't support it now. Its good for player development and promotion and this compensates for the chance of a player getting injured. Maybe you can provide salary cap relief for clubs that contribute players.

I think eventually the queensland players will be more spread out in the AFL, and the gold coast team will lesson this problem. Same deal with NSW and Western Sydney. Plus the games will be held a fair while before the season proper, and the Broncos dont seem to mind too much.

I thought you were alluding to a knock-out format?

This is my attempt at knock-out format:

First year clubs ranked by amount of players in AFL

WEEK 1
Victoria (1st) v.s Queensland (4th) Semi Final 1 (vics win)
Western A (2nd) v.s South A (3rd) Semi Final 2 (SA win)

New South Wales (5th) v.s Tasmania (6th) QUALIFIER 1 (nsw win)

WEEK 2
Queensland (4th) v.s New South Wales (5th) QUALIFIER 2 (nsw win)
As qld were 4th and lost, they play winner of Qualifier 1. Winner move to fourth and play the 1st ranked (final winner) in SEMI 1 next year. Loser plays in Qualifier next year, ranked 5th.

Victoria (1st) v.s South Australia (3rd) FINAL
Final. Winner is champion of the Universe etc.

(Not sure if WA should play Tassie as an Exhibition match)

So the next year would look like this:

WEEK 1
Victoria (1st) v.s New South Wales (4th) SEMI FINAL 1 (nsw win )
South Aus (2nd) v.s West Aus (3rd) SEMI FINAL 2 (wa win)

Queensland (5th) v.s Tasmania (6th) QUALIFIER 1 (qld win)

WEEK 2
South Aus (3rd) v.s Queensland (5th) (SA win) QUALIFIER 2
Because 4th-ranked NSW won, the next lowest ranked semi-finalist, SA play winner of Qualifier 1 to keep thier semi spot.

Western Australia (2nd) v.s New South Wales (4th) FINAL (nsw win )

----------------------------------------------

So top 4 each year can win it, bottom 2 must earn thier spot against lowest ranked loser of the top 4.

NT merge with Queensland (screw em, thier not a state anyway )

 

[Professor Knowall]

I love the idea of SOO (afterall it is an AFL invention back in the 1970's). I would also love to see all the states involved. Based on current player numbers NT v Tas would be very competitive (both with 24 players), and Qld (50) v NSW (37).

I can tell you as a fact that the AFL originally planned for a concept like this to be held this year, over 2 weeks. What killed it was the opposition from the clubs - its still one area where the united opposition from the clubs overules or kills of any enthusiam from the AFL Commission. So in the end all we got was the one off Vic v 'Dreamteam' game.

And its not the Vic clubs that were most vociferously opposed - it was most of all the 6 non Vic clubs - no doubt because they would proportionally have more participants, hence greater injury risk. Sadly, I can't see this changing in the immediate future.

 

[genghiskhan]

I think eventually the queensland players will be more spread out in the AFL, and the gold coast team will lesson this problem. Same deal with NSW and Western Sydney. Plus the games will be held a fair while before the season proper, and the Broncos dont seem to mind too much.

I thought you were alluding to a knock-out format?

This is my attempt at knock-out format:

First year clubs ranked by amount of players in AFL

WEEK 1
Victoria (1st) v.s Queensland (4th) Semi Final 1 (vics win)
Western A (2nd) v.s South A (3rd) Semi Final 2 (SA win)

New South Wales (5th) v.s Tasmania (6th) QUALIFIER 1 (nsw win)

WEEK 2
Queensland (4th) v.s New South Wales (5th) QUALIFIER 2 (nsw win)
As qld were 4th and lost, they play winner of Qualifier 1. Winner move to fourth and play the 1st ranked (final winner) in SEMI 1 next year. Loser plays in Qualifier next year, ranked 5th.

Victoria (1st) v.s South Australia (3rd) FINAL
Final. Winner is champion of the Universe etc.

(Not sure if WA should play Tassie as an Exhibition match)

So the next year would look like this:

WEEK 1
Victoria (1st) v.s New South Wales (4th) SEMI FINAL 1 (nsw win )
South Aus (2nd) v.s West Aus (3rd) SEMI FINAL 2 (wa win)

Queensland (5th) v.s Tasmania (6th) QUALIFIER 1 (qld win)

WEEK 2
South Aus (3rd) v.s Queensland (5th) (SA win) QUALIFIER 2
Because 4th-ranked NSW won, the next lowest ranked semi-finalist, SA play winner of Qualifier 1 to keep thier semi spot.

Western Australia (2nd) v.s New South Wales (4th) FINAL (nsw win )

----------------------------------------------

So top 4 each year can win it, bottom 2 must earn thier spot against lowest ranked loser of the top 4.

NT merge with Queensland (screw em, thier not a state anyway )

Basically we have the same idea. I'd put the extra game in though to guarantee that each state will play two games a year. Just promotional reasons for that. E,g, it would be good to guarantee Tassie two games a year or it would be good to sell two games as a package.

The thing I like about this is that it seems meaningful. Last time state of origin seemed a a series of glorfied exhibition games.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

Basically we have the same idea. I'd put the extra game in though to guarantee that each state will play two games a year. Just promotional reasons for that. E,g, it would be good to guarantee Tassie two games a year or it would be good to sell two games as a package.

The thing I like about this is that it seems meaningful. Last time state of origin seemed a a series of glorfied exhibition games.

Agreed.

Lets just hope the AFL has the same idea (or come across this thread! )

 

[genghiskhan]

I love the idea of SOO (afterall it is an AFL invention back in the 1970's). I would also love to see all the states involved. Based on current player numbers NT v Tas would be very competitive (both with 24 players), and Qld (50) v NSW (37).

I can tell you as a fact that the AFL originally planned for a concept like this to be held this year, over 2 weeks. What killed it was the opposition from the clubs - its still one area where the united opposition from the clubs overules or kills of any enthusiam from the AFL Commission. So in the end all we got was the one off Vic v 'Dreamteam' game.

And its not the Vic clubs that were most vociferously opposed - it was most of all the 6 non Vic clubs - no doubt because they would proportionally have more participants, hence greater injury risk. Sadly, I can't see this changing in the immediate future.

Can you imagine some way to compensate the clubs for contributing players?

Personally, I think the clubs are stupid for not wanting their players selected, but perhaps that is due to the structure of the last origin series. It really was a nothing series.

 

[genghiskhan]

Agreed.

Lets just hope the AFL has the same idea (or come across this thread! )

Incidently, what do you think of this latest concept with Victoria vs the Allies?

At first, it did nothing for me, but then I thought it could be enjoyable watching Victoria lose.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

Incidently, what do you think of this latest concept with Victoria vs the Allies?

At first, it did nothing for me, but then I thought it could be enjoyable watching Victoria lose.

Hate it.

Even as a proud Victorian, i hope they get smashed. Its an insult to the rest of the country.

 

[jpdixon]

If we're going to 18 teams, then one option would be a 17 round H&A with enough spare weeks for SOO round robin. It makes more sense for a fair competition, and I'd love the SOO games, but unfortunately it won't happen for financial reasons.

By the way, remember who won last time NSW played Vic.

 

[sturtman]

The SANFL has always been a huge supporter of Origin. Come on you Vic's, the lights are on at AAMMI, we're wait'n for ya!!! Been along time between drinks for us southerners to clear our throats and flare the nostrils.

 

[Professor Knowall]

The SANFL has always been a huge supporter of Origin. Come on you Vic's, the lights are on at AAMMI, we're wait'n for ya!!! Been along time between drinks for us southerners to clear our throats and flare the nostrils.

Ha! Tell that to the Crows and Port. They rank as the most vociferous opponements of SOO!!

 

[cos789]

Ha! Tell that to the Crows and Port. They rank as the most vociferous opponements of SOO!!

Insert coaching staff .

 

[Fire]

Has to be the one week promotion/relegation thing.

Also, there has to be the following teams:

Victoria (NO SPLIT BETWEEN RURAL AND METRO, absolutely essential.)
South Australia
Western Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
New South Wales
ACT.

8 teams, 4 matches.

Sides liek the ACT, and in some years Tasmania and NT will not be able to fill a team with AFL players. This is irrelevant, as state-level players can fill the gaps, much like how SOO used to be.

We still see the best, its a real SOO competition, its manageable, and every team means something. None of this Allies/ NSWACT, QLDNT/ Vic Metro/ All stars concept. Every team is meaningful. Every Australian is represented.

Its also a great way to develop the game in markets like Tasmania and the ACT without actually giving them an unviable AFL team. Plus, it adds a completely new dimension to footy in NSW and QLD, as well as appeasing the traditional heartlands of VIC, SA and WA.

There is absolutely no reason why this cant work. No issue is close to being insurmountable. The addition it will bring to our game is invaluable. So it is no surprise that the AFL aren’t even contemplating it.

 

[Azzballz Deluxe]

Has to be the one week promotion/relegation thing.

Also, there has to be the following teams:

Victoria (NO SPLIT BETWEEN RURAL AND METRO, absolutely essential.)
South Australia
Western Australia
Queensland
Northern Territory
Tasmania
New South Wales
ACT.

8 teams, 4 matches.

Sides liek the ACT, and in some years Tasmania and NT will not be able to fill a team with AFL players. This is irrelevant, as state-level players can fill the gaps, much like how SOO used to be.

We still see the best, its a real SOO competition, its manageable, and every team means something. None of this Allies/ NSWACT, QLDNT/ Vic Metro/ All stars concept. Every team is meaningful. Every Australian is represented.

Its also a great way to develop the game in markets like Tasmania and the ACT without actually giving them an unviable AFL team. Plus, it adds a completely new dimension to footy in NSW and QLD, as well as appeasing the traditional heartlands of VIC, SA and WA.

There is absolutely no reason why this cant work. No issue is close to being insurmountable. The addition it will bring to our game is invaluable. So it is no surprise that the AFL aren’t even contemplating it.

Yippy!

Exhibition games!

 

[Eastern Rangers]

People dont think WA or SA can beat Victoria? That was what made SOO so great.

17 game season, with SOO after the Finals?

 

[irish_lad]

this week at riverview in syndey the u/15s and u/16s nsw state championships were held. the top of these player are the players who will most probably end up playing for west sydney as they soon are able to start picking up 17yos. surely one or two act players will get picked. this means, if nsw and act merged there are still act representatives.
(act was represented at this carnival)

 

[jackmac7]

Hopefully in 10 years time we will see each state with a team for a state of Origin round robin tournament in the middle of the season over a couple of weeks.

 

[Fire]

Yippy!

Exhibition games!

Sorry?