Expansion Making State of Origin work

[genghiskhan]

3 weeks, to be played before the AFL season.

States ranked 1>6. (You know how)

First season like this:
1. Victoria
2. WA
3. SA
4. QLD
5. NSW
6. TAS

week 1
TOP 4 SEMI 1 - VIC v.s WA - vic win (vic go straight to final, wa go to preliminary)
TOP 4 SEMI 2 - SA v.s QLD - sa win (sa go to preliminary, qld Top 4 qualifier 2)

TOP 4 QUALIFIER - NSW v.s TAS - nsw win (nsw go to Top 4 qualifier 2, tas eiminated)


week 2
PRELIMINARY - WA v.s SA - sa win (go to final, loser eliminated)

TOP 4 QUALIFIER 2 - QLD v.s NSW - nsw win (move to top 4 next year, qld drops out of top 4 next year)

week 3
FINAL - VIC v.s SA



I have used the Top 4 system that the AFL used to use years ago.

eg. 1v2, 3v4. Winner of the former goes to GF, loser plays winner of the latter the next week. Winner of that match goes to GF.

Winner 5v6 would play loser of 3v4 for a chance to make the Top 4 the next year. (only top 4 states can win the FINAL each year)
I'm sure you could work out the rankings for the next season following my example?

Top 4 States play at least 2 matches, only the worst state plays one. I cant see a problem with personally.

Anyone? (Dont be afraid to ask questions if you are confused!)

So basically:

Ranked in top 2 - You must win two games to be the champion. If you win 1 out of your 2 games you will be ranked in the top 2 the next year.

Ranked 3-4 - You must win three straight games to be champion. You must win your first two games to be ranked in the top 2 for the following year.

Ranked 5-6 - Can't win, but if you win two games you make it to position 4 next year.

In total 6 games.

I like it. Every match matters. It would be nice if 5 or 6 had a chance to win as well. Those fairytale runs are good to see. They get them in the six nations and there was one with European soccer a few years ago. I think Greece won when they were expected to be cellar dwellers. Anyway, that can't be helped.

The next task would be selling it to clubs. At the moment they are worried about players being injured. How do you convince them of the benefits of their players being involved? Personally, I think they just can't see the forest for the trees, but whinging about that wont change their mind.

 

[irish_lad]

If the afl wants to expand and go ahead with the gold coast and the west sydney team than they cant leave out nsw and qld.

the afl clearly does want to do expand there. SOO rugby league version is what people from those two states ardore and playing afl SOO would definetley promote teh game up here.

 

[cos789]

If the afl wants to expand and go ahead with the gold coast and the west sydney team than they cant leave out nsw and qld.

QLD is playing WA in Cairns later this year .

 

[genghiskhan]

If the afl wants to expand and go ahead with the gold coast and the west sydney team than they cant leave out nsw and qld.

the afl clearly does want to do expand there. SOO rugby league version is what people from those two states ardore and playing afl SOO would definetley promote teh game up here.

Yeah. One of the marketing strategies of both rugby league and rugby union to to protray Aussie rules as a Victorian sport. The claim resonates because the two teams in NSW and QLD are Victorian implants. State of Origin would counter this liability and build the codes national credentials.

 

[Professor Knowall]

QLD is playing WA in Cairns later this year.

As they have the past couple of years - but it isn't under SOO rules, and it won't have any AFL listed players. Basically its just the QAFL playing the WAFL, minus their AFL listed players.

The VFL also play the SANFL, likewise without any AFL listed players, and last time, the VFL had some Croweaters in their team, the SANFL some Vics in theirs. In short, its not a substitute for true AFL level SOO.

 

[cos789]

As they have the past couple of years - but it isn't under SOO rules, and it won't have any AFL listed players. Basically its just the QAFL playing the WAFL, minus their AFL listed players.

The VFL also play the SANFL, likewise without any AFL listed players, and last time, the VFL had some Croweaters in their team, the SANFL some Vics in theirs. In short, its not a substitute for true AFL level SOO.

Put simply , it's state football .

.

 

[sturtman]

Yes it's state football, but the players are rewarded by being selected to play at the highest level possible for state league players.

It's probably not a big step for SA to intro SoO rules if they wanted to as the SANFL could instruct the two SANFL AFL-based clubs to make their players available for selection if they desired it. However this means that the Crows and Power would be seriously disadvantaged over the round that the game would be played, and even worse if a player copped an injury. The other problem of course is that the VFL and WAFL can not make the same call on their state based AFL clubs so this would make it a bit more one sided than it already is.

So that puts SoO back squarely on the AFL. The SoO formula has waxed and wanned over the years largely depending on where it was played and who the opponent was. Clearly SA v Vic & WA v Vic were the two biggies when played in the two smaller states. The rules of SoO always tended to favour SA & WA as it meant they could front up with a good portion of players well adjusted to the VFL game and they were able to inflict some damage on the Big V. However for the Vics it was always more team mate against team mate and the state division was blurred to the followers of VFL and hence they approached it with less vigor and apart from some notable exceptions like Ted Whitten, most VFL teams saw the likelihood of injury to VFL players as a bigger risk than the glory of the contest.

Is there a solution to SoO? I think the solution is this. I think the AFL got it right by having only one game, but I think we can get a far more interesting game if we were to widen the current state based competition to include Qld, NSW, TAS, ACT and NTwith these states given access to their AFL listed players in these contests.

This should have an even impact across the AFL including WA, SA, Swans and Lions as it is curently a 10/6 club split, Vic/Outside Vic. Once this has been played and decided during the season a combined side is chosen from the SANFL, WAFL, VFL, TAS, QFL, NSWFL, NTFL, ACTFL the coach selected from one of the big three leagues, SANFL, WAFL or VFL, and this team gets to play against a combined AFL team at the end of the season. From this contest the All Australian team is selected. Eight team comp and seeded. 1 SA, 2 WA, 3 VFL, 4 TAS:

Round 1

SANFL V NSWFL
WAFL V QFL
VFL V NTFL
TFL V ACTFL

Round 2

SANFL V VFL
WAFL V TAS

Final

SANFL V WAFL

Combined States Representative: Any player that is eligible to play state league finals in their state league competition whether AFL listed or not.


Combined States Vs AFL ---------------(All Australian Team)

What do you think?

 

[Bone71]

Yes it's state football, but the players are rewarded by being selected to play at the highest level possible for state league players.

It's probably not a big step for SA to intro SoO rules if they wanted to as the SANFL could instruct the two SANFL AFL-based clubs to make their players available for selection if they desired it. However this means that the Crows and Power would be seriously disadvantaged over the round that the game would be played, and even worse if a player copped an injury. The other problem of course is that the VFL and WAFL can not make the same call on their state based AFL clubs so this would make it a bit more one sided than it already is.

So that puts SoO back squarely on the AFL. The SoO formula has waxed and wanned over the years largely depending on where it was played and who the opponent was. Clearly SA v Vic & WA v Vic were the two biggies when played in the two smaller states. The rules of SoO always tended to favour SA & WA as it meant they could front up with a good portion of players well adjusted to the VFL game and they were able to inflict some damage on the Big V. However for the Vics it was always more team mate against team mate and the state division was blurred to the followers of VFL and hence they approached it with less vigor and apart from some notable exceptions like Ted Whitten, most VFL teams saw the likelihood of injury to VFL players as a bigger risk than the glory of the contest.

Is there a solution to SoO? I think the solution is this. I think the AFL got it right by having only one game, but I think we can get a far more interesting game if we were to widen the current state based competition to include Qld, NSW, TAS, ACT and NTwith these states given access to their AFL listed players in these contests.

This should have an even impact across the AFL including WA, SA, Swans and Lions as it is curently a 10/6 club split, Vic/Outside Vic. Once this has been played and decided during the season a combined side is chosen from the SANFL, WAFL, VFL, TAS, QFL, NSWFL, NTFL, ACTFL the coach selected from one of the big three leagues, SANFL, WAFL or VFL, and this team gets to play against a combined AFL team at the end of the season. From this contest the All Australian team is selected. Eight team comp and seeded. 1 SA, 2 WA, 3 VFL, 4 TAS:

Round 1

SANFL V NSWFL
WAFL V QFL
VFL V NTFL
TFL V ACTFL

Round 2

SANFL V VFL
WAFL V TAS

Final

SANFL V WAFL

Combined States Representative: Any player that is eligible to play state league finals in their state league competition whether AFL listed or not.


Combined States Vs AFL ---------------(All Australian Team)

What do you think?

So the AFL players from NT,Qld, NSW, ACT and TAS play even more games to risk injury? Don't think St Kilda, or Richmond or any club with talent from one of those states would be happy with that.

Also a combined state league side would get humiliated playing against the best from the AFL, as their representatives would not even be in the best 300 in the country - it would be the best 22 in the country v's a team of players ranked anywhere from 300 - 670. As such you couldn't select an AA from that match unless you just named the AFL team the AA side.

Sorry, that may have worked pre 1986 (draft) but not now.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

ACT would get thumped in triple figures, except perhaps by Tas; but what the hell, why not have them?

Either played once every few years, or one round a year.

All 8 states/territories. Internationals play in the first state/territory they became a registered player.

Div 1
Vic
WA
SA
Qld

Div2
NT
NSW
Tas
ACT

Round One
Game A : 1 v 4 - Vic v Qld
Game B : 2 v 3 - WA v SA
Game C : 5 v 8 - NT v ACT
Game D : 6 v 7 - NSW v Tas

Round Two (This is where I strike trouble)
Game E : GameA Loser v GameB Loser
Game F : Div2 Final - GameC Winner v GameD Winner

Round Three
Game F : Final - GameA Winner v GameB Winner
Game G : Qualifier - Game E Loser v Game F Winner; Winner becomes the 4th ranked side, and goes into Division One next time


or

Round One
Game A : 1 v 4 - Vic v Qld
Game B : 2 v 3 - WA v SA
Game C : 5 v 8 - NT v ACT
Game D : 6 v 7 - NSW v Tas

Round Two (This is, again, where I strike trouble)
Game E : Final - GameA Winner v GameB Winner
Game F : Qualifier - GameA Loser v Game D Winner, winner to Div1
Game G : Qualifier - GameB Loser v Game C Winner, winner to Div1
optional game H : LoserC v LoserD

Like the Davis Cup, if any State/Territory that played theirr opponent at home last time, plays away next time.

 

[Whispers]

What about this for an idea...

Four teams - VIC, SA, WA, Aboriginal All-Stars?

I know some Aboriginals live in VIC, SA and WA but I know that they wouldn't sherk at the oppotunity to represent their Aboriginal community.

This way we get to watch the traditional state teams fight it out again with the excitement of the Aboriginal team.

Easy format of two games a year, with the winners playing each other playing the following year.

Too please the crowd, NSW can play QLD (traditional rivals). It leaves Tassie in the cold but who could they play? Maybe three way rotating between QLD, NSW and TAS - winner stays on method.

 

[zero]

also, you can penalise any team that doesent allow a player to play for any reason by suspending him for the following weeks club action.... its actually very fair, because if he was actually injured, then he wouldnt have been able to play anyway if the club had played that weekend.

i think a combination of that, paying the club and player stacks of cash and the pride of playing for the jumper would end up with almost full participation

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

What about this for an idea...

Four teams - VIC, SA, WA, Aboriginal All-Stars?

I'm utterly against any "race of origin" concept.

 

[Whispers]

I'm utterly against any "race of origin" concept.

Explain.

 

[genghiskhan]

I'm utterly against any "race of origin" concept.

Yeah. It would be wise to avoid picking teams on the basis of race. Aside from the inherent racism of the plan, it would have so many negative consequences. Imagine, there is a passionate Victorian fan booing the Aboriginal opposition. Likewise, an Aboriginal kid in Victoria wouldn't be able to be celebrated by the state he grew up in whereas his classmates could.

This kind of thinking is straight out of the era of the White Australia Policy.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Explain.

Its quite simple. Discrimination, even when labelled "positive" discrimination still discriminates. It still separates Aboriginal people away from "mainstream" Australia, rather than showing the increased integration that has occurred in football.
There are issues where "aboriginal culture" needs to maintained, as it should be part of the wider Australian heritage. Racially based football teams does not fall into this category. Maintaining sites of cultural significance, indigenous languages, etc, does.

There is also the issue genghiskhan has raised, of fans booing the opposition and it being; or being seen as; racially motivated.

 

[littleduck]

State of Origin should be something that stands alone and represents something above club football that players aspire to and fans embrace.

Why would you even consider the concept if it meant forcing player participation and flogging the hell out of it to gain some fan support?

 

[cos789]

What about this for an idea...

Four teams - VIC, SA, WA, Aboriginal All-Stars?

I know some Aboriginals live in VIC, SA and WA but I know that they wouldn't sherk at the oppotunity to represent their Aboriginal community.

This way we get to watch the traditional state teams fight it out again with the excitement of the Aboriginal team.

Easy format of two games a year, with the winners playing each other playing the following year.

Too please the crowd, NSW can play QLD (traditional rivals). It leaves Tassie in the cold but who could they play? Maybe three way rotating between QLD, NSW and TAS - winner stays on method.

Not a bad idea .

.

 

[Whispers]

Its quite simple. Discrimination, even when labelled "positive" discrimination still discriminates. It still separates Aboriginal people away from "mainstream" Australia, rather than showing the increased integration that has occurred in football.
There are issues where "aboriginal culture" needs to maintained, as it should be part of the wider Australian heritage. Racially based football teams does not fall into this category. Maintaining sites of cultural significance, indigenous languages, etc, does.

There is also the issue genghiskhan has raised, of fans booing the opposition and it being; or being seen as; racially motivated.

We aren't discriminating anyone here I don't think. We have catagoriesed a race into team to represent their proud culture. The Aboriginals are quite passionate about their beliefs, their culture and many would be honoured to play under that banner. We already have teh Aboriginal All-Stars play at the beginning of their year, which has positive feedback.

It would be very similar to the NZ Mauri side in rugby that competes, Mauri's are a passionate and proud race and aren't affraid to show that.

I believe AFL fans have broken through the racial barrier since every team has at least one Aboriginal on their list. They are exciting players, the crowd loves to watch the play... I don't think the crowd would 'boo' the Aboriginal team? Why would they unless they acted untoward someone, then the crowd will get vocal.

The choice of an Aboriginal playing for race or state - their choice.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

We have catagoriesed a race into team

How is that not discriminating on the basis of race? Even moreso when allowing it only for one race.

 

[Whispers]

How is that not discriminating on the basis of race? Even moreso when allowing it only for one race.

Its a representative team. Descrimination is a negative action, whats negative about a rep. team for Aboriginals??

About the only for one race issue, because Aboriginals are apart of Australia. They are our native race. Living in an Aboriginal community, if you asked an Aboriginal about the idea, I believe they will support the concept.

 

[TigerCraig]

Its a representative team. Descrimination is a negative action, whats negative about a rep. team for Aboriginals??

How about one for red-heads, or left handers, or gays?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Its a representative team. Descrimination is a negative action

"Positive discrimination" is still discrimination. It still sets Aboriginal people aside as some sort of "other".

 

[genghiskhan]

We aren't discriminating anyone here I don't think. We have catagoriesed a race into team to represent their proud culture. The Aboriginals are quite passionate about their beliefs, their culture and many would be honoured to play under that banner. We already have teh Aboriginal All-Stars play at the beginning of their year, which has positive feedback.

It would be very similar to the NZ Mauri side in rugby that competes, Mauri's are a passionate and proud race and aren't affraid to show that.

I believe AFL fans have broken through the racial barrier since every team has at least one Aboriginal on their list. They are exciting players, the crowd loves to watch the play... I don't think the crowd would 'boo' the Aboriginal team? Why would they unless they acted untoward someone, then the crowd will get vocal.

The choice of an Aboriginal playing for race or state - their choice.

How about you get them to do an exhibition of boomerang throwing while you are at it? Maybe they can play naked to show how the savages used to play Marngrook.

Then maybe we can classify you into a team based on your racial heritage. If you are pommy, perhaps you can give us an exhibition on how to make pork pies and spotted dicks. If you consider your heritage to be Australian, perhaps you can rock up wearing mole-skin trousers and give us a musical performance with one of those sticks covered in beer-bottle lids.

The key words here are "We have catagoriesed a race into team to represent their proud culture."

You want performing monkeys to entertain you, but you know nothing about Aborigines. There is no such thing as "Aboriginal culture." There are "Aboriginal cultures." Your ignorance astounds me in this day and age. Its embrassing.

And of course an Aboriginal All-Star team would be booed. In a game of football, you support your team and boo the opposition. That is the way it goes.

As for NZ with their Maori team, South Africa used to have racially defined teams as well. Does the fact that other countries do it make it ok? And New Zealand isn't exactly a model of peace and harmony now is it. Their foreign minister says things more extreme than Pauline Hanson.

 

[Whispers]

How about one for red-heads, or left handers, or gays?

Red heads would have a fair team, left handers not sure and the gays, well, St. Kilda are travelling alright aren't they!?

Seriously though, those catagories mentioned about aren't comparable with the Aboriginal team. I honestly see nothing wrong with the idea. It would pack the MCG to see a Victorian team get towled up by an Aboriginal side...

 

[genghiskhan]

Red heads would have a fair team, left handers not sure and the gays, well, St. Kilda are travelling alright aren't they!?

Seriously though, those catagories mentioned about aren't comparable with the Aboriginal team. I honestly see nothing wrong with the idea. It would pack the MCG to see a Victorian team get towled up by an Aboriginal side...

Yeah, people love to pack the MCG to see their team toweled up. Now, why can't Melbourne draw a crowd?