Autopsy Mid Table Freo beats Mid Table Bulldogs 95-71

[Some Idiot]

I'm a bit surprised and disappointed we're not fighting the West suspension. Point of the shoulder to the head is always going to be a report nowadays, but it was an accident from a football action (laying a shepherd for a team mate)

 

[Doggy Dan]

I'm a bit surprised and disappointed we're not fighting the West suspension. Point of the shoulder to the head is always going to be a report nowadays, but it was an accident from a football action (laying a shepherd for a team mate)

No issue for me, no malice in it, but elect to bump you take the risk of an accident. Perhaps he could have shepherded with outstretched arms instead?

 

[dogwatch]

Stats just record actions on the field, not sure how they're an adjunct. Have to say the opposite in fact.
Rating systems just apply certain value to those actions and rank them.

It's on the viewer to understand what they're saying/doing and take it from there. In your case, the AFL rating system does nothing to interpret match ups or who is playing on who and give a comparative assessment. That's a user error if you're wanting it to give that to you.

If people read stats without interpretation or understood what the various rating systems are doing/how they work, they'd be a lot less angst around them.

Game stats are an adjunct to game watching (the eye test). Not sure what you mean by the opposite.

While I agree with you on why the AFL ratings system is limited (and for other reasons too) I think the ratings system is projected/implied to be more than it can actually be. The main purpose of a composite index for every player on the ground is surely to compare their quite different positions and abilities, reduce them to a single index value and from that suggest which players are best.

If valid, such an index would be the holy grail for footy writers and fans. Media and the AFL have been trying to refine performance assessment systems for decades. My point is that it's still quite flawed ... if that's what they pretend it to be. If not that, what are they suggesting it is? Just a number to pump into DT / Fantasy competitions?

And if it wasn't flawed then English would have been BoG. And he wasn't.

I'm in agreement with you on it being up to the user to understand this but I'm not sure that everybody grasps why it's flawed in different ways. Hence a little disclaimer from the ratings people/AFL/media wouldn't hurt.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Before last weeks game Khamis had the most intercept marks for the year out of all AFL listed players. He is an interceptor. Yes he got caught out a few times in 1 on 1 duels, he is clearly better with a run and leap, yet come on people stay the course, Keith can’t even get to half the intercepts Khamis has made this year.

We got beaten by a better midfield again. Outworked by a harder running team. Wasn’t much in it and it’s about where we are. We need to keep pushing change through this team or we will fall off a cliff in a year or twos time.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

But the entire point is that intercepting is just one element of defending. Being able to physically compete on bodies and compete by reading the ball in the air when isolated one-on-one is another element of defending. There's no point being good in one area when you're exposed in a much more dramatic way in the other. Nobody would disagree that Keath would get fewer intercepts, but just that Keath with his 200cm frame would presumably be a stronger physical presence in defensive marking contests than Khamis' 191cms.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

And if it wasn't flawed then English would have been BoG. And he wasn't.

Nobody's saying English was BOG, just saying he didn't have a more valuable game than his direct opponent overall is also incorrect. English had at least a good game, and that's fine to say.

 

[LondonBulldog]

But the entire point is that intercepting is just one element of defending. Being able to physically compete on bodies and compete by reading the ball in the air when isolated one-on-one is another element of defending. There's no point being good in one area when you're exposed in a much more dramatic way in the other. Nobody would disagree that Keath would get fewer intercepts, but just that Keath with his 200cm frame would presumably be a stronger physical presence in defensive marking contests than Khamis' 191cms.

I can think of 1 effort which was poor, that resulted in a goal, may have been more, its happens when the ball is coming in hot. I personally do not think Keith's bigger frame would do anything, he was terrible at 1 on 1 and the stats showed that. Khamis is still learning and improving and I would no way be dumping him for Keith (who is in his last year). What would that achieve. People on this forum seem to think whoever is in the two's is a better option. Judge Khamis on the whole year to date. He has been good, yes there is room for improvement, but to drop him for Keith is a backward, shortsighted view.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I can think of 1 effort which was poor, that resulted in a goal, may have been more, its happens when the ball is coming in hot. I personally do not think Keith's bigger frame would do anything, he was terrible at 1 on 1 and the stats showed that. Khamis is still learning and improving and I would no way be dumping him for Keith (who is in his last year). What would that achieve. People on this forum seem to think whoever is in the two's is a better option. Judge Khamis on the whole year to date. He has been good, yes there is room for improvement, but to drop him for Keith is a backward, shortsighted view.

Fremantle deliberately organised their forward structure and ball movement to isolate Khamis one-on-one rather than allowing him to run off his man to intercept.

If Khamis was a better defender one-on-one, they would have not done the isolation tactics because they would have wanted more forwards at Khamis' feet.

Josh Treacy took a career high 5 contested marks for the game (plus 2 FF). Khamis played him into one of his best games of his career.

What having Keath for the last game would have achieved was potentially having Treacy influence the game less, force them into different game styles, and have us had a better chance of winning.

I'm not here to pump up Keath or put down Khamis, I just find it strange that people are trying to deny the reality of what happened on the field and that was Khamis defensive one-on-one chops being massively exposed. There were many contests he didn't even get to provide a physical contest (that he may have lost anyway) because he was turned inside out or outread by the flight by his opponent.

Nobody's saying Khamis doesn't have a future or has to get dropped, but we still have to try and win games now (obviously). It is also worth noting that Khamis has played fewer than 20 career games despite being largely fit across 6 years on an AFL list, so questioning his long-term value through that lens is not entirely unreasonable.

 

[dogwatch]

Nobody's saying English was BOG

Thank you. QED.

English had at least a good game, and that's fine to say.

Yes, I said as much myself.

My original point was just an observation about the ranking points but as usual these comments tend to develop a life of their own.

Sigh.

 

[BEaston]

Game stats are an adjunct to game watching (the eye test). Not sure what you mean by the opposite.

While I agree with you on why the AFL ratings system is limited (and for other reasons too) I think the ratings system is projected/implied to be more than it can actually be. The main purpose of a composite index for every player on the ground is surely to compare their quite different positions and abilities, reduce them to a single index value and from that suggest which players are best.

If valid, such an index would be the holy grail for footy writers and fans. Media and the AFL have been trying to refine performance assessment systems for decades. My point is that it's still quite flawed ... if that's what they pretend it to be. If not that, what are they suggesting it is? Just a number to pump into DT / Fantasy competitions?

And if it wasn't flawed then English would have been BoG. And he wasn't.

I'm in agreement with you on it being up to the user to understand this but I'm not sure that everybody grasps why it's flawed in different ways. Hence a little disclaimer from the ratings people/AFL/media wouldn't hurt.

Sorry I misread what you wrote. I read it as an adjunct to the game itself, ie to the side, separate. Opposite being; stats are records of what has happened within the game.

Who is projecting/implying it to be some holy grail though? Likely fans that misunderstand it, and then go on to bag it.

In general, the main purpose is to rank according to "best" but no system will ever be able to do that with 100% accuracy. Nobody that understands the system is making the claim that it is the definitive ranking of the best player in a game/season/whatever. It's a guide - and it's pretty good as far as that goes. Unfortunately though some fans pick up on a, sometimes glaring, error in the rankings, and trash the whole system while ignoring that for the most part it got the game right.

You could argue that English and Dale were our two best players on the night which is where the rankings OG posted had them (difference of 1). I believe Sean Darcy also had a high score as well which would fit with his performance in the game, but the system doesn't know they were matched on each other so comparison of scores between then is irrelevant.

 

[Next Waiting]

I had some dreams. They were clouds in my coffee, clouds in my coffee. We're so plain.

 

[Bulldogs85]

Coaches Votes

Fremantle v Western Bulldogs​

9 Caleb Serong

3

Caleb Serong

Age

23

Ht

180cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

4star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

5star

(FRE)
9 Nat Fyfe (FRE)
5 Bailey Dale

31

Bailey Dale

Age

28

Ht

188cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.2

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

5.6

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

1.6

4star

MG

117.4

2star

D

9.0

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

3.9

3star

M

2.3

2star

T

1.7

3star

MG

117.4

2star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.4

2star

T

2.0

4star

(WB)
3 Andrew Brayshaw

8

Andrew Brayshaw

Age

25

Ht

185cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

9.3

5star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.8

5star

CL

2.1

4star

D

18.4

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

10.8

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

4.8

5star

CL

3.1

4star

D

12.6

4star

K

6.0

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

4.0

5star

CL

0.8

3star

(FRE)
3 James Aish (FRE)
1 Liam Jones

19

Liam Jones

Age

33

Ht

199cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.4

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.3

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

134.5

2star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.1

3star

HB

1.4

1star

M

4.1

4star

T

1.4

2star

MG

116.3

2star

D

9.4

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.0

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.2

4star

(WB)

 

[Next Waiting]

Coaches Votes

Fremantle v Western Bulldogs​

9 Caleb Serong (FRE)
9 Nat Fyfe (FRE)
5 Bailey Dale (WB)
3 Andrew Brayshaw (FRE)
3 James Aish (FRE)
1 Liam Jones (WB)

Serong, Fyfe and Brayshaw tells you everything you need to know.

The quest/search continues....

 

[dogwatch]

Coaches Votes

Fremantle v Western Bulldogs​

9 Caleb Serong (FRE)
9 Nat Fyfe (FRE)
5 Bailey Dale (WB)
3 Andrew Brayshaw (FRE)
3 James Aish (FRE)
1 Liam Jones (WB)

Seems about right.

 

[doggiesin08]

Could someone please tell me why (I’ve seen this happen in several games so far now this year) that Tim English is being used as the short pass link up option from Full Back.

Where are the small runners to receive this ball? Why are they kicking it to Tim, then he short passes, then they short pass back to him for * all gain in territory?

Shouldn’t Tim be much further down the line to contest the long kick - he a big *er, and usually marks the ball

It does my head in

And I’m not interested in the Sack Bevo, or Bevo out as an answer

Cheers

I suspect the idea is to have him stretch or get space from the opposition ruck. Either (1) the opposition ruck comes all the way up and English has the full length of the ground to work off him (and also forces opposition ruck to cover more ground), or (2) the opposition ruck doesn’t and English has a pile of separation and is clean enough to play through.

Just a guess and it’s all for nothing as soon as you get a stoppage.

 

[Munnez]

Before last weeks game Khamis had the most intercept marks for the year out of all AFL listed players. He is an interceptor. Yes he got caught out a few times in 1 on 1 duels, he is clearly better with a run and leap, yet come on people stay the course, Keith can’t even get to half the intercepts Khamis has made this year.

We got beaten by a better midfield again. Outworked by a harder running team. Wasn’t much in it and it’s about where we are. We need to keep pushing change through this team or we will fall off a cliff in a year or twos time.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

We have to look to the next generation as what we have currently isn't going to get the job done

 

[Munnez]

I dont think we're in a position to be throwing stones.

Im not sure that our playing group would turn up to the ground at all, if they were asked to play 3 games in 11 days.

We were 3 in 12 days so not that far behind Saints

 

[Munnez]

But the entire point is that intercepting is just one element of defending. Being able to physically compete on bodies and compete by reading the ball in the air when isolated one-on-one is another element of defending. There's no point being good in one area when you're exposed in a much more dramatic way in the other. Nobody would disagree that Keath would get fewer intercepts, but just that Keath with his 200cm frame would presumably be a stronger physical presence in defensive marking contests than Khamis' 191cms.

Treacy had a night out was just clunking anything that went near him. Khamis is still inexperienced he is going to take some time to get there. It was hard watching but will probably benefit hos development

 

[Libbaaaa]

Zero pre game game plan and zero in game adjustments of any note. This is the most frustrating part of Bevo’s tenure. At his peak an all time motivator, but lacks actual tactical smarts.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Zero pre game game plan and zero in game adjustments of any note.

Unless you count Caleb Daniel starting at half forward in the 3rd quarter, and running in to pick up Caleb Serong AFTER each CB.

Apart from Serong being so prolific, and Daniel conceding 13cm and 11kg, and Serong being faster than Daniel by some margin, and a bloke that has tagged in his career contributing bugger all on a wing, it was a noteworthy move... for its ridiculousness.

(I'll probably be labelled a 'Bevo hater', but it was quite possibly the dumbest in-game move this year.

Although Serong only had 16 possessions in the second half compared to 21 in the first, so maybe we'll see Daniel as the preferred tagger to Harmes next week against Will Day?!)

 

[grassman75]

Treacy had a night out was just clunking anything that went near him. Khamis is still inexperienced he is going to take some time to get there. It was hard watching but will probably benefit hos development

Bastard looked like prime Wayne Carey

 

[LondonBulldog]

Fremantle deliberately organised their forward structure and ball movement to isolate Khamis one-on-one rather than allowing him to run off his man to intercept.

If Khamis was a better defender one-on-one, they would have not done the isolation tactics because they would have wanted more forwards at Khamis' feet.

Josh Treacy took a career high 5 contested marks for the game (plus 2 FF). Khamis played him into one of his best games of his career.

What having Keath for the last game would have achieved was potentially having Treacy influence the game less, force them into different game styles, and have us had a better chance of winning.

I'm not here to pump up Keath or put down Khamis, I just find it strange that people are trying to deny the reality of what happened on the field and that was Khamis defensive one-on-one chops being massively exposed. There were many contests he didn't even get to provide a physical contest (that he may have lost anyway) because he was turned inside out or outread by the flight by his opponent.

Nobody's saying Khamis doesn't have a future or has to get dropped, but we still have to try and win games now (obviously). It is also worth noting that Khamis has played fewer than 20 career games despite being largely fit across 6 years on an AFL list, so questioning his long-term value through that lens is not entirely unreasonable.

So my question is what are the coaches and defenders doing about it. Why didn't they say if they try and isolate Khamis as deep defender, do the swap with O'Donnell or Jones. That's what good teams like Geelong do. I'm still not buying that all these marks were taken against Khamis. He is 1 defender out of 6. What about our forwards and midfielders who let Freo waltz it out of defensive and through the middle with little pressure.

 

[Norm De Guerre]

We were 3 in 12 days so not that far behind Saints

How dare you bring facts to one of my posts!

Please don't do that again.

Zero pre game game plan and zero in game adjustments of any note. This is the most frustrating part of Bevo’s tenure. At his peak an all time motivator, but lacks actual tactical smarts.

It was weird how few changes we seemingly saw around the ground on the weekend. It stood in stark contrast to the previous week where we saw examples of Richards, Garcia and West roll through the middle of the ground. It's almost like he said yeah nah. I didn't like that.

 

[Shacf501]

I think baku will be ok, yes, he can be frustrating at times but upside is more than downside in my opinion. Lets not forget he was drafted as a backman and then dumped forward. This has stunted his growth learning how to play defensively down back. I see a big development year for him, short term pain for some long term gain. Though, he isnt a key defender by any stretch of the imagination. His intercept marking is developing, he has some good and bad moments. Yes, they got us goals, but thats what learning is about. You will find that some of the times he gets caught out is due to our players further down the ground not applying pressure and leaving our defense stranded.

Two things I see him needing to get better at... keeping his feet, seems to fall to the ground to easily after a contest. Also, deciding whether to punch or mark. This is something I think Jones can help him with! Liam, when behind, attacks the contest with eyes on the ball and punches the bloody thing. He doesnt use an open palm, he fists it agressively with the purpose of killing the ball. This is soemthing Baku needs to learn. He is an athletic freak, and when behind should be killing a lot more balls then he currently does. His intercept marking is ok, needs stronger hands but this should happen in time. Yes he drops some and we notice them more because its in our back half. Naughts couldnt hold a grab sat night and dropped a couple he would usually take in the goal square but not many people bring that up. I have some faith in Kamis and I think we all should.

 

[maddog37]

Buku just needs time to feel like a fully fledged AFL player which will bring confidence and consistency. How many games has he played?

Also a few more reps in the gym to build his body to handle impact better

 

[dogwatch]

I think baku will be ok... I see a big development year for him, short term pain for some long term gain.

Buku just needs time to feel like a fully fledged AFL player which will bring confidence and consistency. How many games has he played?

Also a few more reps in the gym to build his body to handle impact better

Buku has played 17.

(Coincidentally it's the same number that Baku has played.)

I agree with you both. Just a bit of experience and perseverance required. Will come good in the longer term.