Analysis Midfield, Ruck and On-ball - A bull and some class? Depth ruck?

[eth-dog]

Since 2010 the only team to win the flag and lose the CP count on GF day is Sydney. Seems pretty important to me

 

[ant555]

This is a great read and this is why all this talk about drafting and trading for inside midfielders never makes sense to me.

The head coach of the Patriots talks about doing the opposite to what everybody else was doing so that he was maximising the quality on his list and creating gameplans/tactics around that.

Clarkson is the obvious example of an AFL coach that is doing that.

If everybody is creating contested/tackling football then e need to be creating speed. Why do the same as everybody else....

For the record I like the strategy we are currently using in building a midfield that can rotate all around the ground rather than a contested based midfield like Sydney and most other teams. It may not be paying dividends right now but it will.

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/nfl/...t-picks-new-england/2temew6x7a0g13jpr4227l5uv

Then you will just have to be happy with finishing 6th to 10th most seasons and maybe winning a final every now and then. Contested footy is still a top requirement . Yes you need outside speed but outside speed is no good if you can not win the footy at the coal face. You can not run and kick goals without the ball. All the class in the world is useless without the footy.

Take Richmond for example. They tried outside running game with precise ball movement and it failed. Now they just use speed and inside ball winning with untold pressure and have the best inside bull in the game who can burn you on the outside as well in Martin plus a few other very good inside ball winners.

Clarkson always goes with good inside ball winners, why do you think he went after Mitchell and Omera ? Mitchell inside grunt with an outside game and Omera if he could stand up very good at both sides of the game.

NFL is a different ball game and who says going after an inside midfielder is not going after quality. So Martin , Sloane , Kenneddy , Parker , Hannerbery , Wines , Pepper Powell etc are not quality ?

 

[eDPS]

I agree with BrunoV's assessment of the swans midfield and was something i realised when speaking to my swans supporting mate. He brought up how they lost to Brisbane and I noticed the lack of midfielders in the swans lineup so I instantly said "wow they don't have much midfield depth" but then we had a look at the whole list and I realised guys like Heeney, Mills, Jones ect where all mids playing mostly on the flanks.

The fact that swans have all these quality young mids playing on the flanks shows the real quality the side has. We are waaaay behind in that regard and I feel Woosha hasn't adopted this enough when we have perfectly good young players able to rotate all over the ground in Langford and Laverde and even McGrath can rotate up forward. Fanta and Tippa have also shown they can offer a lot when in the middle and down back.

If we are going to draft versatile players why not use them as such

 

[Killer_Mike]

Then you will just have to be happy with finishing 6th to 10th most seasons and maybe winning a final every now and then. Contested footy is still a top requirement . Yes you need outside speed but outside speed is no good if you can not win the footy at the coal face. You can not run and kick goals without the ball. All the class in the world is useless without the footy.

Take Richmond for example. They tried outside running game with precise ball movement and it failed. Now they just use speed and inside ball winning with untold pressure and have the best inside bull in the game who can burn you on the outside as well in Martin plus a few other very good inside ball winners.

Clarkson always goes with good inside ball winners, why do you think he went after Mitchell and Omera ? Mitchell inside grunt with an outside game and Omera if he could stand up very good at both sides of the game.

NFL is a different ball game and who says going after an inside midfielder is not going after quality. So Martin , Sloane , Kenneddy , Parker , Hannerbery , Wines , Pepper Powell etc are not quality ?

Who said that contested ball doesn't win games of football? It's a combination of both that wins you premierships. Just ask Hawthorn.

The thing I keep hearing week after week is that we near need those people that you named when we already have midfielders on our list! Why go after these clearance players when the club has already drafted those players?

You don't just keep going back to the same player year in year out if you think that position is already covered.

I have been saying it all year that we have drafted those players already and yet this thread is full of comments about the same players week in week out. I'm glad the club has got on the front foot and said that so then there is no further speculation all the time.

Our biggest issue this year was turning the ball over and it looks like we are going to recruit players to fix that.

 

[ant555]

Who said that contested ball doesn't win games of football? It's a combination of both that wins you premierships. Just ask Hawthorn.

The thing I keep hearing week after week is that we near need those people that you named when we already have midfielders on our list! Why go after these clearance players when the club has already drafted those players?

You don't just keep going back to the same player year in year out if you think that position is already covered.

I have been saying it all year that we have drafted those players already and yet this thread is full of comments about the same players week in week out. I'm glad the club has got on the front foot and said that so then there is no further speculation all the time.

Our biggest issue this year was turning the ball over and it looks like we are going to recruit players to fix that.

Who are these players ? We have not covered inside midfielder. Name who we have that is genuine inside ?

 

[Killer_Mike]

I agree with BrunoV's assessment of the swans midfield and was something i realised when speaking to my swans supporting mate. He brought up how they lost to Brisbane and I noticed the lack of midfielders in the swans lineup so I instantly said "wow they don't have much midfield depth" but then we had a look at the whole list and I realised guys like Heeney, Mills, Jones ect where all mids playing mostly on the flanks.

The fact that swans have all these quality young mids playing on the flanks shows the real quality the side has. We are waaaay behind in that regard and I feel Woosha hasn't adopted this enough when we have perfectly good young players able to rotate all over the ground in Langford and Laverde and even McGrath can rotate up forward. Fanta and Tippa have also shown they can offer a lot when in the middle and down back.

If we are going to draft versatile players why not use them as such

You do realise that the players you named have been playing on the flanks with stints in the middle?

Langford playing as a mid in the VFL was for the express purpose of getting his midfield game up to the level. He couldn't do that at senior level because of a lack off opportunity.

This is the same thing I continue to repeat all year! The club has even reiterated that same point 100 times.

 

[eDPS]

You do realise that the players you named have been playing on the flanks with stints in the middle?

Langford playing as a mid in the VFL was for the express purpose of getting his midfield game up to the level. He couldn't do that at senior level because of a lack off opportunity.

This is the same thing I continue to repeat all year! The club has even reiterated that same point 100 times.

Mills, Heeney and Jones all weren't ready for the midfield yet they still got played on the flanks at AFL level.

Point I'm trying to make is guys like Langford and Laverde should be playing AFL regardless and should get eased into the midfield at AFL level. Midfield time in the AFL even for a few minutes every week I feel would do a lot more for the players especially with more quality players to help assist them on the ground

 

[Killer_Mike]

Who are these players ? We have not covered inside midfielder. Name who we have that is genuine inside ?

That confirms my point! "genuine inside".

You have a type in mind and because the club isn't going oin that direction you just assume they are wrong. Can we at least see how it pans out before we write the club off?

I believe we have lots of good young mids but like any side we need to continue to add depth. But like the club I also believe we need more speed and better ball users.

I find this place ironic because most of the negativity in this forum is about Myers and Colyer. Ones this apperent bull that every club needs and the other cant execute a kick to save himself.

Our mids from this year were average and I expect from next year we will see a lot of improvement.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Happy for Langford to play middle but every time he got a senior game after a good VFL performance he plays average. That's frustrating thing for me with him he's VFL form doesn't seem to translate in the seniors.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Mills, Heeney and Jones all weren't ready for the midfield yet they still got played on the flanks at AFL level.

Point I'm trying to make is guys like Langford and Laverde should be playing AFL regardless and should get eased into the midfield at AFL level. Midfield time in the AFL even for a few minutes every week I feel would do a lot more for the players especially with more quality players to help assist them on the ground

You are comparing high draft picks to players that are mostly speculative midfielders?

 

[Killer_Mike]

I'm happy for Langford to play middle but every time he got a senior game this year he was average. that's frustrating thing for me with him he's VFL form doesnt seem to translate in the seniors.

How many games in the midfield did he play this year?

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

How many games in the midfield did he play this year?

1 or 2.

Personaly I don't think he has enough grunt to play in the middle and is not a pure mid which is what we are lacking.

 

[eDPS]

You are comparing high draft picks to players that are mostly speculative midfielders?

Langford and Laverde both top 20 picks who where also in the mix for top 10 for most of their draft year, hardly speculative.

Maybe their ability in the middle is speculative but that's only because they havnt been given the chance at AFL level.

 

[TheGrizz]

Happy for Langford to play middle but every time he got a senior game after a good VFL performance he plays average. That's frustrating thing for me with him he's VFL form doesn't seem to translate in the seniors.

True his AFL form wasnt great, but at Senior level he played as a Flanker.
So not only was he adjusting to a higher gamespeed and intensity, but he was also adjusting to a different position from what he had been doing for the majority of the year. Might better explain his formline.

 

[Killer_Mike]

1 or 2.

Personaly I don't think he has enough grunt to play in the middle and is not a pure mid which is what we are lacking.

Well "every time he played midfield" isn't a fair assessment.

Judge him next year when he gets an opportunity to prove himself. He's 20 yo.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Langford and Laverde both top 20 picks who where also in the mix for top 10 for most of their draft year, hardly speculative.

Maybe their ability in the middle is speculative but that's only because they havnt been given the chance at AFL level.

Thats my point. They are natural mids but Dodoro thinks they can be. Same with Begley.

We need to give these kids an oportunity to prove themselves.

 

[BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!!]

Well "every time he played midfield" isn't a fair assessment.

Judge him next year when he gets an opportunity to prove himself. He's 20 yo.

Well I hope you are right.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Well I hope you are right.

Mate, we have the talent we just need to continue to build and develop.

 

[BrunoV]

Two midfielders last year? That confirms to me that JOM and Mitchell weren't there when the Hawks won the three GF's in a row.

I get the impression that you don't get to a lot of games!? I often find with your commentary that it is all about contested ball and that usually indicates somebody that watches a lot of TV.

My point is and still remains that premiership sides are created not from copying what others do but blazing your own trail.

There is not much of any significance that you're not aware of while watching TV. The whole game is condensed into a small segment of the ground anyway. Sure there are minor things relating to player running patterns which are not as obvious but that's it.

I otherwise look forward to being enlightened with a view as to about how we can move the ball we couldnt get in our possession against Sydney.

Anyone who was watching Essendon this year would know that the only way to make our style defensively sustainable would be to win more of the ball in the middle to protect the back line. All other options involve outnumber tactics which would rob us of the forward structure that worked so well.

We basically just doing what Adelaide has been doing. Funnily enough they became a genuine contender when the Crouch brothers became elite ball winning mids.

 

[ant555]

That confirms my point! "genuine inside".

You have a type in mind and because the club isn't going oin that direction you just assume they are wrong. Can we at least see how it pans out before we write the club off?

I believe we have lots of good young mids but like any side we need to continue to add depth. But like the club I also believe we need more speed and better ball users.

I find this place ironic because most of the negativity in this forum is about Myers and Colyer. Ones this apperent bull that every club needs and the other cant execute a kick to save himself.

Our mids from this year were average and I expect from next year we will see a lot of improvement.

I have a type in mind for 1 reason and that is because you can not teach someone to be a center clearance player. It is a natural instinct. The best have an outside game to go with their inside game and if you are even more lucky they have pace.
Last season I said before the draft that McGrath would be the best fit for us as he is quick and has a decent defensive mind set. I know the club has looked at quick and I have not said they are wrong. Now I will say they will look at inside Midfielder this year as we have little left in that area. Watson gone, Hwolett gone, Bird gone, Hocking gone and Myers has to prove he is up to it.
I am not assuming they are wrong. It is as plain as white balls on a black dog where we lack depth. Classy inside ball winner. Dustin Martin , Rory Sloan Dangerfield, Sellwood.

We do have some very good young midfielders but none are genuine week in and week out inside ball winners other than Clarke who is a dodgy kick.
Even our skipper in not at his best as a genuine inside clearance winner. We need someone to win the ball.

We have speed. Darcy Parish is at his best as a second receive player or an open stoppage player. His best footy is getting in the clear and running.
McGrath will move into the midfield but he will not be a clearance bull either. He will win his share of the footy inside, he will be good defensively and possibly our run with guy who can attack the other way with his speed. Is also a very good user of the footy.
The we have Merritt who gives us midfield class but again despite being good at tackling is not a genuine inside midfielder. You want the ball in his hands and not have him scraping on the ground.
Walla and Raz will have cameo roles to play.
Heppell's best role is more of a continual running role, lots of hand ball receives or lead up play or second receiver at a center clearance.
BJ is not an inside mid.
Myers has to find form again. Had some decent inside clearance form 4 years ago but jury is out.
Colyer no inside game at all.
Dylan Clarke has an inside game but is an ordinary kick.
Koby Much has work to do on is disposal but is more of an outside guy with just above average pace.
Laverde and Begley both half forwards who we hope may play midfield but both have questions on their ball winning clearance ability.
Langford being taught midfield but again is not a fierce inside ball winner. If he makes it will be more of an outside ball user.

I rest my case.

 

[Killer_Mike]

I have a type in mind for 1 reason and that is because you can not teach someone to be a center clearance player. It is a natural instinct. The best have an outside game to go with their inside game and if you are even more lucky they have pace.
Last season I said before the draft that McGrath would be the best fit for us as he is quick and has a decent defensive mind set. I know the club has looked at quick and I have not said they are wrong. Now I will say they will look at inside Midfielder this year as we have little left in that area. Watson gone, Hwolett gone, Bird gone, Hocking gone and Myers has to prove he is up to it.
I am not assuming they are wrong. It is as plain as white balls on a black dog where we lack depth. Classy inside ball winner. Dustin Martin , Rory Sloan Dangerfield, Sellwood.

We do have some very good young midfielders but none are genuine week in and week out inside ball winners other than Clarke who is a dodgy kick.
Even our skipper in not at his best as a genuine inside clearance winner. We need someone to win the ball.

We have speed. Darcy Parish is at his best as a second receive player or an open stoppage player. His best footy is getting in the clear and running.
McGrath will move into the midfield but he will not be a clearance bull either. He will win his share of the footy inside, he will be good defensively and possibly our run with guy who can attack the other way with his speed. Is also a very good user of the footy.
The we have Merritt who gives us midfield class but again despite being good at tackling is not a genuine inside midfielder. You want the ball in his hands and not have him scraping on the ground.
Walla and Raz will have cameo roles to play.
Heppell's best role is more of a continual running role, lots of hand ball receives or lead up play or second receiver at a center clearance.
BJ is not an inside mid.
Myers has to find form again. Had some decent inside clearance form 4 years ago but jury is out.
Colyer no inside game at all.
Dylan Clarke has an inside game but is an ordinary kick.
Koby Much has work to do on is disposal but is more of an outside guy with just above average pace.
Laverde and Begley both half forwards who we hope may play midfield but both have questions on their ball winning clearance ability.
Langford being taught midfield but again is not a fierce inside ball winner. If he makes it will be more of an outside ball user.

I rest my case.

The club doesn't agree with you and neither do I.

If as you suggest we are not up to it then we will be down the bottom of the ladder for a long time.

I'm prepared to back the club in.

 

[ant555]

The club doesn't agree with you and neither do I.

If as you suggest we are not up to it then we will be down the bottom of the ladder for a long time.

I'm prepared to back the club in.

WTF are you talking about ?
When has the club said this year we are not considering an inside midfielder because we have enough of them ?
So far the club has been in total agreement with me. How many midfielders last National draft ?
I have never said we have not needed speed. IT has been a constant theme of mine for 7 years that we have been too bog slow in the middle and we need change up in the midfield. They have tried to address that.
They will pick an inside midfielder or two in this draft. You watch.
To say the club does not agree with me is total horse shit.
I have never said I do not back the club.
I have not said we are not up to it. I have said we are short of top 4 which we are.
I have given detailed opinion while you have given well basically rubbish.
We have covered the speed aspect.
What hurt us the most in Saturdays game ?

 

[Killer_Mike]

WTF are you talking about ?
When has the club said this year we are not considering an inside midfielder because we have enough of them ?
So far the club has been in total agreement with me. How many midfielders last National draft ?
I have never said we have not needed speed. IT has been a constant theme of mine for 7 years that we have been too bog slow in the middle and we need change up in the midfield. They have tried to address that.
They will pick an inside midfielder or two in this draft. You watch.
To say the club does not agree with me is total horse shit.
I have never said I do not back the club.
I have not said we are not up to it. I have said we are short of top 4 which we are.
I have given detailed opinion while you have given well basically rubbish.
We have covered the speed aspect.
What hurt us the most in Saturdays game ?

Then what the hell was your post about about prior to this?

You were telling me they weren't up to it.

 

[Killer_Mike]

WTF are you talking about ?
When has the club said this year we are not considering an inside midfielder because we have enough of them ?
So far the club has been in total agreement with me. How many midfielders last National draft ?
I have never said we have not needed speed. IT has been a constant theme of mine for 7 years that we have been too bog slow in the middle and we need change up in the midfield. They have tried to address that.
They will pick an inside midfielder or two in this draft. You watch.
To say the club does not agree with me is total horse shit.
I have never said I do not back the club.
I have not said we are not up to it. I have said we are short of top 4 which we are.
I have given detailed opinion while you have given well basically rubbish.
We have covered the speed aspect.
What hurt us the most in Saturdays game ?

Brush up on this from Woosha if it helps. In it he explicitely says that our "inside midfield" stocks are covered on the list.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-09-09/bombers-can-fix-inside-midfield-struggles-woosha

"ESSENDON coach John Worsfold believes the Bombers can fix their inside midfield struggles from within.

Essendon was destroyed by Sydney during the second quarter of Saturday's elimination final loss, conceding 10 goals on the way to a 65-point defeat.

The Swans won the ball on the inside and swept it forward to give Lance Franklin (four goals) and Callum Sinclair (three) countless one-on-one chances.

"We've got a lot of growth in this group and part of that is grunt as they grow and mature," Worsfold said.

"I'd say that was an area we were short against Sydney today but I think we'll be able to add that to our group from within."

 

[ant555]

Then what the hell was your post about about prior to this?

You were telling me they weren't up to it.

Please do point out where i have ever said anything other than we are not up to top 4 ?
Start of the year said it would be down to the mental aspects of the game and if the players could get their head around the defensive aspects. I said we where good enough ability wise and should play finals but I doubted we had what it took to take the next step up.
Just before I said we will be in and around finals but not take the next step if we do not address it.

The post prior to this was just highlighting the are we have fallen down in the most against the class sides of the comp.
Our inside ball winning is currently the weak point. This is why I have also said how important the likes of Laverde being able to step it up is vital to us.
Nothing I have said above about the players is wrong. We now have some outside class. We now have limited inside class.
I did not say players where not up to it. I simply said most are not genuine inside ball winning players. You need the balance of a couple of class outside types (Merritt, Parish,Merrit) with a couple of hard inside Sam Pepper Powell types or if you are really lucky a Dustin Martin or a Rory Sloane.

You bang on about the Hawks. Inside/outside ball winner. Sam Mitchell. Hard nose inside winners Sewell / Lewis. Outside pace Smith , Hill and Burgoyne. Inside run with player with speed Sheils. Then Hodge who could go in and play inside if needed plus your part time speed in Rioli , Puopilo and Bruest who played mainly forward with part time midfield roles.