Naitanui a likely target for GWS

[chardonnay]

You would still be talking about giving a guy with potential 700K a season.

Cox has never ever been on that type of money and I think we all agree if Nicnat ends up half as good as Cox was that is great.
In fact has any player ever got that much money a season at west Coast???

And we are talking about giving it to a guy with potential??? Cmon seriously.

Isnt this if GWS come calling & we need to meet the market.

Izzy is earning his keep in the PR stakes, it'll be a while before he earns his keep on a footy field.

Big Cox is a 'dime a dozen' out west of Sydney & its not relevant in the GWS scenario.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Isnt this if GWS come calling & we need to meet the market.

Izzy is earning his keep in the PR stakes, it'll be a while before he earns his keep on a footy field.

Big Cox is a 'dime a dozen' out west of Sydney & its not relevant in the GWS scenario.

Of course this is a what if situation? And until West Sydney knock on his door it is hypothetical.

I didn't start the thread, but i gave an answer if it did happen.

Would it be fair to say Chardonay that we would not be a responsible club to pay Natanui more than arguably any player ever in the Eagles history based on what he could possibly be?

It would be one of the worst business decisions maybe in history of any type of business in my view.

Make no mistake I love the kid, but under this scenario I would give him a lift to the airport.

 

[chardonnay]

My only argument is whether we fight or roll over, & I'd be disappointed if we rolled.
GWS is one off for NicNat just as the Suns were for GAblett.

NicNats marketing potential in Sydney is in a different league to his value to the Eagles & therein lies our problem.

I'd pay him silly money to get over 2012 - up front with him & his manager.

Painful.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

My only argument is whether we fight or roll over, & I'd be disappointed if we rolled.
GWS is one off for NicNat just as the Suns were for GAblett.

NicNats marketing potential in Sydney is in a different league to his value to the Eagles & therein lies our problem.

I'd pay him silly money to get over 2012 - up front with him & his manager.

Painful.

Fair enough, you are entitled to your view.
But personally I would not even have a conversation with him him about paying him more than something we paid the likes of Judd, Cousins, kerr, cox etc etc.

In fact it is embarressing to even be speaking about it.

You don't pay for a gun until he becomes a gun. Potential means absolute shit as we have seen for the last 3 years just at our own club.

 

[Pat_Footy]

Fair enough, you are entitled to your view.
But personally I would not even have a conversation with him him about paying him more than something we paid the likes of Judd, Cousins, kerr, cox etc etc.

In fact it is embarressing to even be speaking about it.

You don't pay for a gun until he becomes a gun. Potential means absolute shit as we have seen for the last 3 years just at our own club.

Then we may very well lose Naitanui. Maybe you should go check out his highlight reel for 2010 or just his stats. He has been performing solidly in his position with flashes of brilliance. It's more a matter of when he becomes a gun now.... not if. He is only 19 and already being stuck in at the centre bounce for clearances when Cox is rucking - their is something very special about Naitanui. If you can't see that, that says a lot.

 

[sTeeL]

Didnt Richmond already do head of GWS by signing Martin to an expensive deal?

I would have no problem with that. We have so few genuine superstars at this stage.

 

[Obeanie1]

Fair enough, you are entitled to your view.
But personally I would not even have a conversation with him him about paying him more than something we paid the likes of Judd, Cousins, kerr, cox etc etc.

In fact it is embarressing to even be speaking about it.

You don't pay for a gun until he becomes a gun. Potential means absolute shit as we have seen for the last 3 years just at our own club.

You wouldn't even discuss it with him and his manager? Thankfully you are not our list manager then.

Its not embarrasing at all, its simply how the market works.

Every club has one or two marquee players who are the 'face' the club puts up there and markets the club with. ATM we have Glass, Cox and to a smaller extent Kerr. Judd and Cousins were also up there. Now yes we know these guys are also top liners and AA winners but lets ask the question who of our current youngsters are most likely going to be the next generation?

Naitanui is the obvious choice, he already has a huge profile, probably the highest profile of any 18 > 19yr old to have ever been drafted. This very fact means he is worth marketing dollars and big ones. Marketing dollars on top of what he is worth as a footballer.

Then we ask whats his worth as a footballer? If you were to nominate which of our young crop is most likely to become AA in the future who would you chose? For me it would be:

Kennedy, Shuey and Naitanui.

**(Le Cras already is and has earned a pay rise already)

So out of the current youngsters Naitanui is at the top of the list for marketing ability and also raw tallent.

Is he worth what Judd and Cousins got paid right now? No.

Could he be in the future? Yes.

And you wouldn't even talk to him?

I can't see us matching GWS's offer formally. Impossible to do without gutting our side, we may be able to do it for 1 year at the very, very most.

The smart thing to do would be a package something like:

Football $$ Marketing $$$ Total

2011 $300k $200k $500k
2012 $400k $250k $650k
2013 $500k $300k $800k


He can also get marketing $$$ from outside the club.

Remember in 2011 GWS can't pay him 1 cent. We can.

Line him up with property developers etc and financial advisors to invest. AFL can't stop the Eagles and major sponsors helping NN make well informed investments decisions.

Start a Naitanui Foundation ala Wirrapunda. Not for profit in an area that he is interested in. Fiji maybe? Help build housing in 3rd World Nations? Plenty of companies would fund it big time just for his marketing ability etc.

You can't knock the marketing ability of this guy. At the very least he will end up like Kornakova - above average athlete but no super star but everyone wants to watch them play.

 

[Wirra for PM]

Sometimes you have to take chances to win premierships. There is risk in forking out big bucks to keep Natanui, because part of that would be in recognition of his potential, but we've got to back our judgment that he'll end up earning it.

Mind you the whole situation reflects the double-shafting we're getting from the expansion sides - ok, give them all the good draft picks, but the bottom sides that get shafted as a result should at least get some salary cap relief so they can hold on to their marquee players.

 

[Pat_Footy]

By great white shark's logic, GWS can take any of our players. None of them are star players yet. Dustin Martin, Stephen Hill, Jack Watts - none are stay players yet. Sheedy would have a field day.

 

[The Dodger]

By great white shark's logic, GWS can take any of our players. None of them are star players yet. Dustin Martin, Stephen Hill, Jack Watts - none are stay players yet. Sheedy would have a field day.

I happen to agree with what GreatWS is saying. You cant start paying on what they could become. GWS' entrance is the same as GC's it is a very rare scenario that we cannot match with payment nor should we try. Geelong moved heaven and earth to try to keep Ablett but they could not match the money (other reasons also I believe). He was a brownlow medalist, dual premiership player. If GWS offer Naitanui anything like that, apart from reminding him about the good things of West Coast + off-field potential to earn nothing we can really do.

If Melbourne were to pay Jack Watts massive amounts of money based on his output now I think alot of people would think they are crazy. Similarly imagine the position of Richmond if they signed Dusty up for big bucks. They have arguably the best KPF in the game, wheres his money going to come from next contract, along with potential star in Cotchin.

I would hate to think we could not keep the nucleus of our young side together in future if 1 guy out of the lot is on ridiculous money.

We have to face the fact that we cannot compete with GWS salary and hope he stays for other reasons/potential external income (which he will also have with GWS anyway)

 

[Obeanie1]

I happen to agree with what GreatWS is saying. You cant start paying on what they could become. GWS' entrance is the same as GC's it is a very rare scenario that we cannot match with payment nor should we try. Geelong moved heaven and earth to try to keep Ablett but they could not match the money (other reasons also I believe). He was a brownlow medalist, dual premiership player. If GWS offer Naitanui anything like that, apart from reminding him about the good things of West Coast + off-field potential to earn nothing we can really do.

If Melbourne were to pay Jack Watts massive amounts of money based on his output now I think alot of people would think they are crazy. Similarly imagine the position of Richmond if they signed Dusty up for big bucks. They have arguably the best KPF in the game, wheres his money going to come from next contract, along with potential star in Cotchin.

I would hate to think we could not keep the nucleus of our young side together in future if 1 guy out of the lot is on ridiculous money.

We have to face the fact that we cannot compete with GWS salary and hope he stays for other reasons/potential external income (which he will also have with GWS anyway)

You can't compare Naitanui with a Jack Watts or Dustin Martin a even a G Ablett Jrn because these guys simply do not have the same marketing value. Sure GWS has a bigger markeing budget than any other club but they have already committed a huge slice of that by signing Israel Falou.

How much money could NN earn external to the Eagles versus GWS? Well the Eagles are a pretty big fish in a small pond in WA whereas GWS are a smaller fish in a bigger pond NSW. GWS are competing in a Rugby League - Rugby Union strong hold as well as against the Swans. There is only so many $$$ out there.

I'd be stunned if NN couldn't earn more in WA ........... if the AFL let him of coarse.

The problem is the AFL has stacked the deck big time in GC and GWS's favour. The AFL doesn't give a rats arse about the Eagles and have never provided us with the hand outs and easy draws it provides others.

 

[The Dodger]

You can't compare Naitanui with a Jack Watts or Dustin Martin a even a G Ablett Jrn because these guys simply do not have the same marketing value. Sure GWS has a bigger markeing budget than any other club but they have already committed a huge slice of that by signing Israel Falou.

How much money could NN earn external to the Eagles versus GWS? Well the Eagles are a pretty big fish in a small pond in WA whereas GWS are a smaller fish in a bigger pond NSW. GWS are competing in a Rugby League - Rugby Union strong hold as well as against the Swans. There is only so many $$$ out there.

I'd be stunned if NN couldn't earn more in WA ........... if the AFL let him of coarse.

The problem is the AFL has stacked the deck big time in GC and GWS's favour. The AFL doesn't give a rats arse about the Eagles and have never provided us with the hand outs and easy draws it provides others.

Yeah understood,
I was only using Martin, Watts because I thought that was not correct mentioning them in the post before mine. That was a discussion on money for potential performance. I disagree that Junior does not have the marketing ability of Naitanui. In the case of expansion the AFL will plaster his face (as they have done) as the face of GC. Thats where I think NN's money off the field will come from, more the AFL than the actual club/sponsors. I personally believe the AFL were not neutral to the Ablett discussion of going to Gold Coast. I think they were in his ear the whole time, as it was in their interest for a big name like him to go there. Also hence the delayed announcement of his move to GC to not spoil what the AFL thought at the time would the final game of the year.

Also if he was to go he will be the face very quickly, as I believe that Izzy is the face until footy starts, then it will take him time (i'm guessing) to have an impact on the field, similar to NN's learning curve, to which, I think the AFL would prefer to have an exciting/performing player of NN's background to appeal straight away. Much like Karmichael's build up, massive signing at the time, but doesn't set the world on fire so then the actual big signing of footy players becomes the big talk.

 

[Obeanie1]

What would be very interesting is if the AFL put a cap on his marketing income in WA but increased that cap as long as he played for GWS.

I won't pretend that I am any legal expert but I just don't understand how this scenario isn't some form of restraint of trade and breaches the Trades Practices Act?

My understanding is that with Judd the Eagles with a major sponsor wanted to match Visi's offer but the AFL knocked it on the head?

I mean WTF? How does that work?

Anyone have any ideas on this aspect?

 

[The Dodger]

What would be very interesting is if the AFL put a cap on his marketing income in WA but increased that cap as long as he played for GWS.

This is what I think will happen. The AFL have an interest in GWS' success therefore to be able to pay talent, that puts bums on seats megabucks is what they will allow as opposed to WA market being able to pay external cash to keep him. That player will probably be put on the AFL payroll as the face of footy in that market.

I am personally hoping that the AFL are happy that Izzy represents the Islander market and that they don't need more. If they do someone better had point them in the Rodan direction.

 

[Pat_Footy]

I happen to agree with what GreatWS is saying. You cant start paying on what they could become. GWS' entrance is the same as GC's it is a very rare scenario that we cannot match with payment nor should we try. Geelong moved heaven and earth to try to keep Ablett but they could not match the money (other reasons also I believe). He was a brownlow medalist, dual premiership player. If GWS offer Naitanui anything like that, apart from reminding him about the good things of West Coast + off-field potential to earn nothing we can really do.

If Melbourne were to pay Jack Watts massive amounts of money based on his output now I think alot of people would think they are crazy. Similarly imagine the position of Richmond if they signed Dusty up for big bucks. They have arguably the best KPF in the game, wheres his money going to come from next contract, along with potential star in Cotchin.

I would hate to think we could not keep the nucleus of our young side together in future if 1 guy out of the lot is on ridiculous money.

We have to face the fact that we cannot compete with GWS salary and hope he stays for other reasons/potential external income (which he will also have with GWS anyway)

What GreatWS shark is saying though is that NN has not proved himself at all. If GWS are ready to offer NN such a large amount of money from the same flashes of brilliance why would WC not believe that he will come good? GWS needs to be competitive from the start- they could be grabbing players like Cooney/Griffen/Dal Santo etc .... but they are targetting NN. NN has proved himself at AFL level already and will only get better. I don't agree with offering absurd money offers to retain potential players but NN has surpassed that already. He deserves a big pay increase from what everyone has already seen.

 

[Bender_]

What would be very interesting is if the AFL put a cap on his marketing income in WA but increased that cap as long as he played for GWS.

I won't pretend that I am any legal expert but I just don't understand how this scenario isn't some form of restraint of trade and breaches the Trades Practices Act?

My understanding is that with Judd the Eagles with a major sponsor wanted to match Visi's offer but the AFL knocked it on the head?

I mean WTF? How does that work?

Anyone have any ideas on this aspect?

You're paranoid about the Eagles getting the rough end of every AFL stick. Stop blaming everyone else for our own ineptitude in certain matters and wake up to reality.

 

[Masto]

You're paranoid about the Eagles getting the rough end of every AFL stick. Stop blaming everyone else for our own ineptitude in certain matters and wake up to reality.

I don't see the poster blaming other people for ineptitude? The reality is GWS could offer Naitanui a 10 million dollar contract and there is no way we could match that under the AFL rules. Is that really the Eagles fault? I would say no.

 

[Obeanie1]

You're paranoid about the Eagles getting the rough end of every AFL stick. Stop blaming everyone else for our own ineptitude in certain matters and wake up to reality.

Wake up to reality?

OK, would you mind pointing out for us what this reality you are speaking of is exactly?

What is this ineptitude in certain matters?

Sure I realise the AFL is more interested in profit than in governing over a competition where a level playing field exists for all clubs. But I sure don't like it or accept it.

 

[Keys]

What GreatWS shark is saying though is that NN has not proved himself at all. If GWS are ready to offer NN such a large amount of money from the same flashes of brilliance why would WC not believe that he will come good? GWS needs to be competitive from the start- they could be grabbing players like Cooney/Griffen/Dal Santo etc .... but they are targetting NN. NN has proved himself at AFL level already and will only get better. I don't agree with offering absurd money offers to retain potential players but NN has surpassed that already. He deserves a big pay increase from what everyone has already seen.

Geelong would have been foolish to try to match Gold Coast's offer to Ablett as it was well in excess of his real value to any other club and would have given him a far greater share of Geelong's overall salary cap than would be managable when negotiating other players contracts.

We would be similarly negligent to try to match an offer by GWS that is way above Naitanui's value and I think that is greatwhiteshark's point - if it is I agree with him 100%.

 

[Bender_]

Wake up to reality?

OK, would you mind pointing out for us what this reality you are speaking of is exactly?

What is this ineptitude in certain matters?

Sure I realise the AFL is more interested in profit than in governing over a competition where a level playing field exists for all clubs. But I sure don't like it or accept it.

Apologies for my vagueness. It seems from a few of your posts you like to think of the Eagles as the AFL whipping boys and that we seem to get shafted on a multitude of matters.

Specifically regardless of whether we could have matched VISI's payments to Judd with a similar offer, Judd didn't leave because of money. He left because our off field antics were becoming bigger than the club itself and he wanted out. In regards to NN, if the Eagles are smart enough with their list management and player payments they will find enough cash and other bonuses/activities to keep him interested. The ball is out court to keep NN here, not in the AFLs to entice him to leave.

I like you love this club, and I hope they can retain NN as I think he is well on his way to a successful career. But when things go wrong at the Eagles I get the impression from your previous posts on other threads aswell that you think there is a conspiracy from the AFL, not from the Eagles management. Unfortunately the Eagles aren't perfect.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

What GreatWS shark is saying though is that NN has not proved himself at all. If GWS are ready to offer NN such a large amount of money from the same flashes of brilliance why would WC not believe that he will come good? GWS needs to be competitive from the start- they could be grabbing players like Cooney/Griffen/Dal Santo etc .... but they are targetting NN. NN has proved himself at AFL level already and will only get better. I don't agree with offering absurd money offers to retain potential players but NN has surpassed that already. He deserves a big pay increase from what everyone has already seen.

Nic has not overly proved himself yet Pat, well i don't think he has yet.
He has shown some pieces of brilliance but they are rare and few and far between.

Once again you are reading things into what people say, I concur that he has enormous potential. But I would have a real issue for him to be paid as a marquee player while he is still feeling his way.

Yes maybe you are right that the system has changed and now we pay on possible outcomes?? But in my world you still have to prove yourself to earn big money.

Right now in my opinion he as a footballer is a $150K max a year player. That may double every year for the next 3 years with him performing consistantly and becoming the star you think he is now. But right now he is still just a third year player with potential in my opinion.

And until he proves otherwise that is the reality of what he is today.

 

[Obeanie1]

Apologies for my vagueness. It seems from a few of your posts you like to think of the Eagles as the AFL whipping boys and that we seem to get shafted on a multitude of matters.

Specifically regardless of whether we could have matched VISI's payments to Judd with a similar offer, Judd didn't leave because of money. He left because our off field antics were becoming bigger than the club itself and he wanted out. In regards to NN, if the Eagles are smart enough with their list management and player payments they will find enough cash and other bonuses/activities to keep him interested. The ball is out court to keep NN here, not in the AFLs to entice him to leave.

I like you love this club, and I hope they can retain NN as I think he is well on his way to a successful career. But when things go wrong at the Eagles I get the impression from your previous posts on other threads aswell that you think there is a conspiracy from the AFL, not from the Eagles management. Unfortunately the Eagles aren't perfect.

Agree the Eagles are far from perfect and the mess we made of not better managing our off field culture is the most obvious example.

I suppose I get the sh!ts with the AFL's mentality that profits and $$$ out weight the concept of having a fair competition where as far as possible an equal playing field is set by the AFL. And people can call me paranoid but in my mind there are just too many example of what I'm talking about re: The AFL not giving us a break very often. Recent example include:

1. North's being blocked from selling a home game to us at Subi. AFL allowed both Norths and the Bulldogs to sell home games into Sydney giving the Swans two extra home games several years ago but said no to selling a game in the West because they thought it disadvantaged other sides with us getting another home game. Faaark Moui but don't we (and Freo) travel more than anyone?
2. AFL saying no to us chartering our own plane. Collingwood then goes ahead and charters a plane to fly West. FFS, they travel out of Melbourne 3 times a year and get allowed to charter a flight?
3. AFL moves from QANTAS to Virgin - the sides that travel most end up at an even greater disadvantage as Virgin doesn't have the same # of flights or at times that suit. (Agree we have yet to experience this but it was reported)

These are recent examples, the past 2 years and there are plenty of others. It basically strikes me as the good old Australian welfare mentality from the AFL, the Eagles have always been strong financially as well as enjoying on field success so why do they need any help at all? And if you seriously think Victorians don't see interstate teams as 'the enemy' then you are very much mistaken.

TBH its the off season and its a topic IMO worth kicking around a bit to offset the boredom. I like sides / clubs with an "Us versus Them" mentality and I think its something that has really dropped off over the past few years with the Eagles.

The great thing though is we have been extremely successfull much to the disappointment of other sides, especially Victorian sides

 

[Obeanie1]

Nic has not overly proved himself yet Pat, well i don't think he has yet.
He has shown some pieces of brilliance but they are rare and few and far between.

Once again you are reading things into what people say, I concur that he has enormous potential. But I would have a real issue for him to be paid as a marquee player while he is still feeling his way.

Yes maybe you are right that the system has changed and now we pay on possible outcomes?? But in my world you still have to prove yourself to earn big money.

Right now in my opinion he as a footballer is a $150K max a year player. That may double every year for the next 3 years with him performing consistantly and becoming the star you think he is now. But right now he is still just a third year player with potential in my opinion.

And until he proves otherwise that is the reality of what he is today.

Do you accept that NN is worth marketing dollars on top of his football dollars?

If so how much is he worth as a marketing tool?

Also how do you rate him against similar players (ruckmen) of a similar age?

And the next obvious question how do you rate him against more mature rucks? Example Ryder - he had a poor 2010 IMO and also seems to play very well in patches but seriously lacks consistancy.

 

[Pat_Footy]

Nic has not overly proved himself yet Pat, well i don't think he has yet.
He has shown some pieces of brilliance but they are rare and few and far between.

Once again you are reading things into what people say, I concur that he has enormous potential. But I would have a real issue for him to be paid as a marquee player while he is still feeling his way.

Yes maybe you are right that the system has changed and now we pay on possible outcomes?? But in my world you still have to prove yourself to earn big money.

Right now in my opinion he as a footballer is a $150K max a year player. That may double every year for the next 3 years with him performing consistantly and becoming the star you think he is now. But right now he is still just a third year player with potential in my opinion.

And until he proves otherwise that is the reality of what he is today.

That's fair enough. I rate NN very highly. Imo he is bordering star status and I think he will prove a lot of people wrong next season. For what he is doing at his age is unbelievable.

 

[Bender_]

Agree the Eagles are far from perfect and the mess we made of not better managing our off field culture is the most obvious example.

I suppose I get the sh!ts with the AFL's mentality that profits and $$$ out weight the concept of having a fair competition where as far as possible an equal playing field is set by the AFL. And people can call me paranoid but in my mind there are just too many example of what I'm talking about re: The AFL not giving us a break very often. Recent example include:

1. North's being blocked from selling a home game to us at Subi. AFL allowed both Norths and the Bulldogs to sell home games into Sydney giving the Swans two extra home games several years ago but said no to selling a game in the West because they thought it disadvantaged other sides with us getting another home game. Faaark Moui but don't we (and Freo) travel more than anyone?
2. AFL saying no to us chartering our own plane. Collingwood then goes ahead and charters a plane to fly West. FFS, they travel out of Melbourne 3 times a year and get allowed to charter a flight?
3. AFL moves from QANTAS to Virgin - the sides that travel most end up at an even greater disadvantage as Virgin doesn't have the same # of flights or at times that suit. (Agree we have yet to experience this but it was reported)

These are recent examples, the past 2 years and there are plenty of others. It basically strikes me as the good old Australian welfare mentality from the AFL, the Eagles have always been strong financially as well as enjoying on field success so why do they need any help at all? And if you seriously think Victorians don't see interstate teams as 'the enemy' then you are very much mistaken.

TBH its the off season and its a topic IMO worth kicking around a bit to offset the boredom. I like sides / clubs with an "Us versus Them" mentality and I think its something that has really dropped off over the past few years with the Eagles.

The great thing though is we have been extremely successfull much to the disappointment of other sides, especially Victorian sides

No worries - I do respect your opinion and am happy to debate/converse these issues with you. The examples you have providied illustarte your point very well. I just think the whole "woe is me" attitude open us up to being viewed as sooks which I don't want. Rather we should be "okay it's not the best turn out for us - but **** 'em we're gonna win anyways". None the less I do agree with you about the points you've made above to an extent.

1. It's really not gonna make much of a difference other than another home game - which used to mean another win a few years back, but not so much now. But really if we wanna be the best we must be able to win anywhere - including the MCG in October (feels weird saying October )

2. Could not agree with you more on the whole chartered flight issue. Is a joke and we should really have our own plane.

3. Well that may not be the best turn out for us, but we need to adapt regardless of what is thrown at us - and whinging (not that you are) is not gonna help us. Again it should be a "what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger" attitude.

But in saying that, I know that the view of favourtism to Victoria or the new clubs can be frustrating, but there isn't much we can do about it (other than discuss it on a forum )