Expansion National reserves competition in 2025. Are you in favour?

[Dragz]

The 1st question which comes to mind is how are they going to pay for it?

It's going to be very expensive flying teams around the country and might be cost prohibitive.

West coast playing Melbourne?
WC reserves play Melbourne reserves.

Don’t dick around with it - same schedule you play earlier in the day.

 

[kane249]

I like the idea of 18 reserves sides + the 5 best state league sides in one comp. Play each team once. State league teams have a relegation/promotion system to keep them honest.

No outside teams, make it an 18 team comp.

Reserves play on the same fixture as the seniors and play either as a curtain raiser, after the match if it's an early one, or on another oval locally the same day.

Makes scheduling and logistics easy

 

[tiger_tough]

No outside teams, make it an 18 team comp.

Reserves play on the same fixture as the seniors and play either as a curtain raiser, after the match if it's an early one, or on another oval locally the same day.

Makes scheduling and logistics easy

You could still have the double header 17 games a season, but I get your point. Would be good to give the state league teams extra incentive and make fixturing as even as it can get.

 

[kane249]

You could still have the double header 17 games a season, but I get your point. Would be good to give the state league teams extra incentive and make fixturing as even as it can get.

I'm just thinking in terms of cost and logistics for the comp.

Say Eagles are playing Richmond at Optus that week.
Playing the Eagles reserves vs the Northern Bullants in Melbourne that same week would be a bit silly.

Having those 5 extra teams in their just puts an overhead in that's not needed IMO

 

[Coolangatta]

They could create a second tier AFL consisting of the bottom six teams + six of the best state league sides. So the AFL is set to 12 teams playing each other twice each year.

Third tier would just be the state leagues with fewer teams in them, or topped up with the strongest teams from local leagues.
A playoff system among the best state sides could determine who's promoted to the second tier, while the bottom two from the second tier are relegated back to their state league.

The bottom two from the AFL would be relegated to the second tier league, and the best two second tier sides would be promoted to the AFL.

You can't have five national divisions but you could have two (each division having twelve teams). With so few teams in the top division, the standard of the second tier comp would be stronger than a reserves comp or a comp full of just affiliates.

 

[Rickee]

The other factor is they might not have a choice. Port and Willy might be alright. Perhaps Werribee and Frankston, though they’re hardly flush. The Bullants and Coburg are on the bones of their arse. The Springvale Scorpions are gone, they’re now the Casey Demons and purely a reserves team. Box Hill and Sandringham would be dead without their alignments.

So unless Port and Willy want to have a two team league, they might have to accept whatever compromised system is the outcome.

Sandy would be fine, they have so far resisted a full take over by St Kilda, despite the latter really pushing for it.

As with Preston when Carlton dumped them, both Box Hill and Casey would be able to resume competing as their former independent identities, as Box Hill has the EFL to draw on and good local support, and Casey would have the council wanting to keep a team playing at Casey Fields.

An independant VFA absolutely would not survive without AFL Victoria support, and an AFL reserves competition is not the place for them, so as I see it, unless AFL Vic is willing to financially back a state league competition, they have the following options:

• Apply to join a suburban competition or the amateurs
• Seek a merger, either amongst themselves or with a suburban club
• Cease operations and fold

I'd expect the last option is unlikely, given the groundswell of support for Frankston when they were last kicked out of the league and for Port, who ran a successful crowdfunding campaign in our most recent premiership year to remain solvent.

With or without a state league, there is still a place for these clubs, and it would be very upsetting to see the likes of North Port Oval, Point Gellibrand and Kars St sit silent on a winter Sunday afternoon as the trophies rust, the flags fray and the memories fade, as with what happened when many VFA clubs went bust in the 80s and 90s

 

[Rickee]

Precisely

People seem to want reserves “just cos” without even thinking of the point of reserves

Players out of form
Develop young players
Returning players from injury

A national reserves comp does nothing to improve any of those factors.

In the case of players returning from injury, it’ll actively harm it. Flying is not a good thing for athletes, it’s only done out of necessity.

If somebody is returning from injury and part of their rehab is playing a quarter or a half and then building up… flying around the country to do that is utterly mad.

I don’t know why the push from Port and others… their reserves aren’t going to get a better standard than they do currently in the SANFL. And they have to fly around the country for away games rather than take a half hour drive.

Every single AFL club except Fremantle and St Kilda run their own reserves sides already. The costs to rebrand and set up a fixture that mirrors the AFL, even if the games aren't curtain raisers, would not be insurmountable.

 

[Rickee]

These old VFA clubs are dying anyway. It's either that or let these OP teams join local comps (Casey, Box Hill in EFL; Frankston, Sandringham in SFL; Coburg, Preston in NFL; Port, Werribee and Williamstown in the WRFL)

Setting up an alignment program is unlikely but do you have an alternative when the AFL reserves inevitably happen?

Even if that is the case, you can't force them to enter an alignment without their say so just because you think it's the cleanest option. I can tell you for a fact that the members of the clubs would not go for it.

Without the VFL, the clubs have the option of resurrecting the VFA, joining suburban competitions, either as they are or by merging with a club already in that competition or ceasing operations and folding outright.

AFL Victoria would not want to go without a top level state league, as the SANFL and WAFL will continue without much fuss when the AFL Reserves starts. Whether they invite the current VFL clubs, put out a tender process for some of the cashed up clubs in the suburban comps or do something else entirely remains to be seen.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I wonder if we don't see some sort of AFL2/VFL conferences

Conference 1
Werribee
Box Hill (Hawthorn)
Williamstown
Footscray
Casey (Melbourne)
Collingwood
Richmond
North Melbourne
Carlton
Geelong
Port Melbourne
Sandringham (St Kilda)
Essendon
Frankston
Bullants
Coburg

Conference 2
Gold Coast
Brisbane
Sydney
GWS
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
West Coast
Fremantle
Southport
Tasmania
ACT club?
NT Thunder?

But I suspect the writing could be on the wall for the Bullants, Coburg and perhaps Frankston.

The VFL could pretty much continue as is, while the interstate AFL clubs get the proper reserves they seem to want so dearly.

 

[Coolangatta]

Even if that is the case, you can't force them to enter an alignment without their say so just because you think it's the cleanest option. I can tell you for a fact that the members of the clubs would not go for it.

Without the VFL, the clubs have the option of resurrecting the VFA, joining suburban competitions, either as they are or by merging with a club already in that competition or ceasing operations and folding outright.

AFL Victoria would not want to go without a top level state league, as the SANFL and WAFL will continue without much fuss when the AFL Reserves starts. Whether they invite the current VFL clubs, put out a tender process for some of the cashed up clubs in the suburban comps or do something else entirely remains to be seen.

Why couldn't the affiliate clubs just remain in the VFL, the same way Peel should (surely!) remain in the WAFL once the Dockers create their own reserves side.

WAFL: West Perth, East Perth, Perth, Claremont, Subiaco, Swan Districts, South Fremantle, East Fremantle, Peel (9)
SANFL: Central District, Glenelg, North Adelaide, Norwood, South Adelaide, Sturt, West Adelaide, Woodville-West Torrens (8) (NT Thunder could return and join the SANFL?)
VFL: Box Hill, Casey, Coburg, Frankston, Northern Bullants, Port Melbourne, Sandringham, Werribee, Williamstown (9)

Or would the VFL affiliates be dead if they cut ties with their AFL affiliates?

 

[kane249]

They could create a second tier AFL consisting of the bottom six teams + six of the best state league sides. So the AFL is set to 12 teams playing each other twice each year.

Third tier would just be the state leagues with fewer teams in them, or topped up with the strongest teams from local leagues.
A playoff system among the best state sides could determine who's promoted to the second tier, while the bottom two from the second tier are relegated back to their state league.

The bottom two from the AFL would be relegated to the second tier league, and the best two second tier sides would be promoted to the AFL.

You can't have five national divisions but you could have two (each division having twelve teams). With so few teams in the top division, the standard of the second tier comp would be stronger than a reserves comp or a comp full of just affiliates.

How would the draft work in that scenario though? Even if you retain the salary cap incentivizing players to stay in division 2 and not move to level 1 would be the challenge.

It would be a massive step up in funding for a state level team to match it with a top level team, the gap is too wide IMO

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Oh, and they already tried aligning the VFA clubs with the under age competition in the 90s and it was a disasterous failure. Thats why the AFL stepped in and aligned it with the Victorian based reserves in the first place.

Can you please explain further? I wonder what was the reason it was a failure.

 

[Coolangatta]

How would the draft work in that scenario though? Even if you retain the salary cap incentivizing players to stay in division 2 and note move to level 1 would be the challenge.

It would be a massive step up in funding for a state level team to match it with a top level team, the gap is too wide IMO

Yeah you're spot on about that being the glaring issue, I was thinking maybe good players from clubs in division 2 could be loaned to the division 1 clubs and the salary cap prevents any of the clubs from hogging all the best talent. In theory.

And yes, you're right about the funding, but go from 9 games a week on TV to 12 (televising all division one and two games) and the extra money for that could go some way to helping fund the state sides better to be more competitive.

 

[kane249]

Yeah you're spot on about that being the glaring issue, I was thinking maybe good players from clubs in division 2 could be loaned to the division 1 clubs and the salary cap prevents any of the clubs from hogging all the best talent. In theory.

As I touched on the draft will be the other factor in this, if the top young talent are getting drafted into div 2 it would only be a matter of time before someone takes it to the courts and challenges it like the NRL had.

AFL academies are another thing to consider. Cost of establishing them for new teams would be a hefty burden.

Just too many things that would need abolishing IMO if we ever got to a relegation system like English soccer.

 

[Off Tap]

West coast playing Melbourne?
WC reserves play Melbourne reserves.

Don’t dick around with it - same schedule you play earlier in the day.

I understand that but teams will need to take double the players which will double airfares, accommodation and meals. Extra support staff will need to be taken as well.

24 players at $800 airfares, $800 accommodation and $200 meals = $1,800. Plus buses, taxis and all the hidden costs etc. That's a minimum half a million a year to a club's bottom line.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I wonder if we don't see some sort of AFL2/VFL conferences

Conference 1
Werribee
Box Hill (Hawthorn)
Williamstown
Footscray
Casey (Melbourne)
Collingwood
Richmond
North Melbourne
Carlton
Geelong
Port Melbourne
Sandringham (St Kilda)
Essendon
Frankston
Bullants
Coburg

Conference 2
Gold Coast
Brisbane
Sydney
GWS
Adelaide
Port Adelaide
West Coast
Fremantle
Southport
Tasmania
ACT club?
NT Thunder?

But I suspect the writing could be on the wall for the Bullants, Coburg and perhaps Frankston.

The VFL could pretty much continue as is, while the interstate AFL clubs get the proper reserves they seem to want so dearly.

Still no one knows what will be any different for them, they are just changing geography. Nothing will change in regards to development. In fact many would argue they will be moving to a weaker comp joining the VFL.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

West coast playing Melbourne?
WC reserves play Melbourne reserves.

Don’t dick around with it - same schedule you play earlier in the day.

There will probably be some part-time reserves players, so "earlier" might not be practical for Thursday/Friday nights. But other than that, absolutely. Same teams play each other, shortly before seniors when practical.
On the same ground is only really possible outside Melbourne, and then subject to wear.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I understand that but teams will need to take double the players which will double airfares, accommodation and meals. Extra support staff will need to be taken as well.

24 players at $800 airfares, $800 accommodation and $200 meals = $1,800. Plus buses, taxis and all the hidden costs etc. That's a minimum half a million a year to a club's bottom line.

Flights and accommodation are part of the league's sponsorship packages. The financial hit of that would not be retail price, but a smallish drop (in relative terms) in the cash component of those sponsorships.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Still no one knows what will be any different for them, they are just changing geography. Nothing will change in regards to development. In fact many would argue they will be moving to a weaker comp joining the VFL.

It is apparently being pushed by the Adelaide AFL clubs, I’m not really that sure as to why.

Personally my favoured arrangement is each club’s reserves play in their own state league. And that includes NSW and Queensland. If those leagues need development then so be it.

 

[Off Tap]

Flights and accommodation are part of the league's sponsorship packages. The financial hit of that would not be retail price, but a smallish drop (in relative terms) in the cash component of those sponsorships.

Those costs are still going to need to be paid for by the league through renegotiated contracts. Someone will pay for them and it won't be the suppliers.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

It is apparently being pushed by the Adelaide AFL clubs, I’m not really that sure as to why.

Personally my favoured arrangement is each club’s reserves play in their own state league. And that includes NSW and Queensland. If those leagues need development then so be it.

Could not agree more. The SA teams i don’t understand when their own people say the SANFL is the best comp outside the AFL. Why would they not want their players developing in it.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

It is apparently being pushed by the Adelaide AFL clubs, I’m not really that sure as to why.

For some strange reason they seem to think it will improve their AFL team performances. Still looking for a reason as to why.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

For some strange reason they seem to think it will improve their AFL team performances. Still looking for a reason as to why.

They don’t like competing maybe with sides in the SANFL who are hell bent on winning when they can play another AFL sides seconds who like them are just there for a hit out and winning is not on the agenda of importance.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Absolutely.. and let’s make it even more common sense…

Let’s schedule the reserves to play the same schedule as the seniors, so they all travel and prepare together In unity as a squad.

Have both seasons run the exact same in unity

 

[Bjo187]

Absolutely.. and let’s make it even more common sense…

Let’s schedule the reserves to play the same schedule as the seniors, so they all travel and prepare together In unity as a squad.

Have both seasons run the exact same in unity

This is the best idea in theory, but you are effectively doubling the travel costs of the competition, going from about 35 players and staff to 60 odd for every flight, hotel booking, meals, transport etc etc..

The cheapest option is to just go back to full state leagues, it actually cuts costs from the current set up (which includes neafl clubs) and teams like port can't complain as much about being disadvantaged, coz all interstate teams are in a similar basket.