Expansion National reserves competition in 2025. Are you in favour?

[BringFevBack2021]

For.

Some pretty strong opinions against this competition, you'd think the state league teams would have 10k+ at every match based on how passionate people are ITT. A lot of local football matches get more supporters to the ground than state league games. National reserves competition is totally necessary.

 

[kane249]

The SANFL has responded to Port Adelaide's reported desire to depart the competition

SEN SA’s Michelangelo Rucci reported on Monday the news, saying it would be a “no-blame divorce”.

www.sen.com.au

 

[greatwhiteshark]

For.

Some pretty strong opinions against this competition, you'd think the state league teams would have 10k+ at every match based on how passionate people are ITT. A lot of local football matches get more supporters to the ground than state league games. National reserves competition is totally necessary.

Why?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I like the idea of a national reserves competition, i remember as a kid in the 90s that if we got to the game early enough, you could catch the reserve team playing. I also like the idea of the reserves playing the grand final as well as a curtain raiser on grand final day, i remember North Melbourne winning both the reserves and senior team premierships in 1996 on TV.
There might be a bit more money on food and beverage sales at the ground with people turning up earlier, and add to the attendance a bit more. Probably a bit more money in TV rights. I think all of that could cover the extra cost.
Lists might need to be a bit more bigger. And clubs would need some sort of affiliate club to top up their reserve teams numbers when there are injuries. The VFL only recently had their own reserves team. I remember AFL listed Brent MacCaffer was playing in the VFL reserves team, kicking a few goals a game, and thinking this guys has to then break into the VFL senior team, then work his way up again to get called up to the AFL team. Thats going to be too much, but then he broke into the 2010 AFL team and won a premiership, and famously tagged Cotchin completely out of a game a few years later.

As for the VFL, maybe it could merge into division 1 of the amateur league, as that league is dispersed all over Melbourne just like the VFL.

In Melbourne at least, you can forget curtain raisers. Back in the day clubs were all playing at their own grounds. Now there’s just Marvel and the G and the surfaces are managed to handle about 50 games of footy each per season. Reserves doubles that, they’re not going to do it and destroy the grounds.

They’d be played at the training grounds, the best you can hope for is Punt Rd games before MCG games which works well. Collingwood could play theirs at their training ground.

There’s not really a ground close to Docklands, perhaps Arden St, it’s about a 2km walk. North could play there, others might not bother.

 

[Frederico_WA]

If they are looking to do this, they need to massively shake up their national strategy to ensure funding game development (state, local and grassroots), the Academy system, and now this new national feeder league doesn't disadvantage clubs or other levels of the game.

AFL cannot decide that alone. 2025 seems way too premature to roll it out as you'd need the VFL, WAFL, SANFL and state Football Commissions to be involved for their experience and their deeper understanding for the state of the game in local and regional footy leagues.

How could that look? Here's a start ...



If the league is transforming, we acknowledge the importance of history but not let it hold us back in moving toward a truly national game.

• VFL is rebranded to the Eastern Football League (NSW, VIC, QLD)
• WAFL/SANFL is rebranded to the Western Football League (SA, WA, NT)

EFL teams	WFL teams
QLD: Aspley, Broadbeach, Labrador, Morningside, Mount Gravatt, Redland, Southport	WAFL: Claremont, East Fremantle, East Perth, Perth, Swan Districts, South Fremantle, Subiaco, West Perth
VIC: Box Hill, Casey, Coburg, Footscray, Frankston, Northern Bullants, Port Melbourne, Sandringham, Southport, Werribee, Williamstown	SANFL: Central Districts, Glenelg, North Adelaide, Norwood, South Adelaide, Sturt, West Adelaide, Woodville West-Torrens
NSW/ACT: Ainsley, Belconnen, Canberra, Tuggeranong, Queanbeyan, Sydney Hills, Sydney University	NT: Banks, Darwin Buffalos, Jabiru Bombers, Nightcliff, Palmerston Magpies, Pint, Southern Districts, St Marys, Tiwi Bombers, Tracy Village, University Rats, Wanderers, Waratah
25 teams	29 teams

That's a lot of teams ... so AFL along with EFL/WFL decide who is resourced/supported enough to meet the needs of the league and stay viable, and/or split into Div1/Div2 with promotion and relegation. EFL/WFL teams can de-registered and return to the local/zone league, and league/zone teams can apply to be registered into the league to fill the spot or replace a struggling team.

The EFL and WFL run their competitions to the agreed AFL framework/strategy to safeguard the new national systems effectiveness and profitability. EFL/WFL govern the accredited zones/local leagues. AFL provides funding to them to invest to game development.

AFL Academy Program similarly becomes national, following an agreed framework/curriculum. No more zones for clubs to get exclusive access to kids. Everyone invests, everyone contributes, everyone gets a seat at the National Draft table without it being fiddled with.

How is all this funded? Sky is the limit as networks get access to a new advertising stream with a healthy fan following.

1. Negotiate a TV rights deal for an exclusive AFL Reserves channel on Foxtel (included in AFL-Pass)?
2. Schedule AFL Reserves games to an opposite fixture to AFL League so there is always a home game for the club supporters to get to each weekend. This acts as a 'curtain raiser' and should be scheduled to finish 30mins before the AFL League game to capture viewer audience.
3. EFL/WFL operate similarly to current VFL/WAFL/SANFL leagues so are largely self-sufficient. Would benefit from AFL assistance with player flights discounts/grants.
4. EFL v WFL Origin games to rival rugby league
5. many, many more ...

 

[Pie thon]

In Melbourne at least, you can forget curtain raisers. Back in the day clubs were all playing at their own grounds. Now there’s just Marvel and the G and the surfaces are managed to handle about 50 games of footy each per season. Reserves doubles that, they’re not going to do it and destroy the grounds.

They’d be played at the training grounds, the best you can hope for is Punt Rd games before MCG games which works well. Collingwood could play theirs at their training ground.

There’s not really a ground close to Docklands, perhaps Arden St, it’s about a 2km walk. North could play there, others might not bother.

That is a good point

 

[Bjo187]

The 1st question which comes to mind is how are they going to pay for it?

It's going to be very expensive flying teams around the country and might be cost prohibitive.

Whilst I like the idea, how much money is the afl going to piss up the wall on second tier comps nobody really cares about?

The AFLW is already leaking money like anything, with their 2 mill per round and massive pay rises they seem to get annually, an AFL reserves comp you'd think would cost another 50 million on top of that with all the travel costs.

All money that comes out of the pool of non football related investments that make more money for the competition, annual profits and therefore less money for grassroots and developing markets to make the game bigger throughout the country.

I'd prefer to just have all second tier comps state based you save some money, the afl are spending like drunken sailors these days in things people don't care about.

 

[Jibroni]

I can see the SANFL becoming a parklands comp in 5-10 years if this goes ahead.

From an SA perspective I never understood why the Crows could not have could not have an affiliated club (ie: Eagles/West Adelaide) where interstate players be in the one team and SA based players play with their junior team (ie: Jackson Hately

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with Centrals).

 

[smish]

I can see the SANFL becoming a parklands comp in 5-10 years if this goes ahead.

From an SA perspective I never understood why the Crows could not have could not have an affiliated club (ie: Eagles/West Adelaide) where interstate players be in the one team and SA based players play with their junior team (ie: Jackson Hately with Centrals).

It was like this until the Crows joined the SANFL and Port became aligned with the AFL team.

I used to love when guns would come back from injury via the SANFL. Like watching Robbie Gray at Westies take the piss against some poor battler.

 

[sigur]

From an SA perspective I never understood why the Crows could not have could not have an affiliated club (ie: Eagles/West Adelaide) where interstate players be in the one team and SA based players play with their junior team (ie: Jackson Hately with Centrals).

Because what the SANFL clubs actually want is an even playing field. Each SANFL club has a zone to work with and it's up to them to develop the pathways from juniors to the top level. Giving only one or two clubs access to elite players and expecting them to compete on a 'level' playing field doesn't work when you mix up SANFL clubs working with tiny salary caps and strict zones and then introduce AFL clubs with unlimited resources.

It sort of worked when the AFL players were spread across the clubs (and did remain with their SANFL club if they could), but got messier with Port (understandably) wanting all their players in the one system. I actually thought this was good for player development, they usually got plenty of time on ball, but there were also cases where players didn't fit in. And AFL clubs would pull players out of finals which is pretty shit for the SANFL team.

It would be good for the SANFL as a competition if the AFL teams leave- but it's going to cost the AFL a lot of money for very little return. No-one wants to watch reserves footy, and there's the tricky issue of making top up players travel the country and possibly only playing when the AFL team has injuries.

AFL really needs to work out what the structure of footy needs to be across the country. It's messy because there are clubs with a century of history who are going to get shafted.

 

[Big Blood]

It's another nail in the coffin of the old state leagues. I'm old enough to remember when VFL was merely the first among equal state leagues.

I'm surprised to learn that Port thinks playing against an AFL reserves team half filled with teenage topups is a higher standard than grownups in the SANFL but hey, whatever. Professional sport is all about money and glory and presumably they think there is more of both by joining the national B league.

The only point of interest is we continue to call the reserves comp the VFL? According to AFL geography, Victoria has already annexed NSW and Qld, so why not WA and SA as well.

 

[Coolangatta]

Maybe they could bring back promotion and relegation to the VFL.

As for the WAFL, it survived without West Coast for over 100 years.

I'm sure the SANFL won't die without Port and Adelaide either.

It'd be cool to see some relegation/promotion system between the national reserves comp and the state leagues, though.

Best VFL side plays best NEAFL side for a spot in the reserves comp, best WAFL side plays best SANFL side for a spot in the reserves comp.

The reserves comp becomes a 20 team comp, with the 18 AFL reserves sides never being relegated, but the state sides going up and down.

And if, it's a big if, one day, a state league side can win the national reserves comp, you could ask the question about promotion and relegation into top flight AFL. I suppose though that even if a state club is good enough to beat reserves clubs, they'd probably still get stomped in top flight AFL.

 

[ThirtyFive]

I saw Kochies comments about the rules placed on them. What are they exactly?

Port run this “siege” mentality up the flagpole every year. They’ve played in 3 GF’s since the stand alone AFL sides concept was introduced, so, the supposed restrictions can’t be too daunting. There are traditional SANFL clubs that haven’t played in any! Truth is they can’t stand loosing, plain and simple. And, trying to drag Adelaide into their “we hate the SANFL campaign” is a red herring. Ask Adelaide if they get cooperation from SANFL clubs. You’ll get a resounding, yes. If it wern’t for SANFL clubs, where would their prized AFLW team play? Typical PAFC “woe is me” stuff and tantrum throwing. They need to look deeper for their lack of success. And, it’s not the SANFL…..

 

[peetoo]

Whilst I like the idea, how much money is the afl going to piss up the wall on second tier comps nobody really cares about?

The AFLW is already leaking money like anything, with their 2 mill per round and massive pay rises they seem to get annually, an AFL reserves comp you'd think would cost another 50 million on top of that with all the travel costs.

All money that comes out of the pool of non football related investments that make more money for the competition, annual profits and therefore less money for grassroots and developing markets to make the game bigger throughout the country.

I'd prefer to just have all second tier comps state based you save some money, the afl are spending like drunken sailors these days in things people don't care about.

Like I said, things funds were so bad in pandemic everyone had a haircut. No seemingly there unlimited dollars for plane tickets etc

Were they lying then or are they lying now?

 

[peetoo]

It's another nail in the coffin of the old state leagues. I'm old enough to remember when VFL was merely the first among equal state leagues.

I'm surprised to learn that Port thinks playing against an AFL reserves team half filled with teenage topups is a higher standard than grownups in the SANFL but hey, whatever. Professional sport is all about money and glory and presumably they think there is more of both by joining the national B league.

The only point of interest is we continue to call the reserves comp the VFL? According to AFL geography, Victoria has already annexed NSW and Qld, so why not WA and SA as well.

Maybe the bathwater from 33 sa flags has divorced port from reality. Isn’t it a selling point for national draftees if they have competed well in the sanfl?

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Genuine question.
If the WAFL, SANFL and VFL are currently regarded all as second tier footy.
How does that change their level if two teams leave the WAFL and SANFL?
Most would say the SANFL and WAFL are stronger comps than the VFL.
Changing the name does not make it a better comp.
Why is there this assumption a national reserves comp would be the best comp outside the AFL when it will be full of kids who no one knows if they can play yet and a few seasoned veterans.
The Eagles and Dockers leaving the WAFL does not change the WAFL status in my opinion. All the seasoned good men footballers don’t want to play for the Eagles and Dockers now, why would that change?

 

[Magma]

It was like this until the Crows joined the SANFL and Port became aligned with the AFL team.

I used to love when guns would come back from injury via the SANFL. Like watching Robbie Gray at Westies take the piss against some poor battler.

the old mini draft used to get some extra people to games too. there were definitely more people at westies games when a robbie gray, dangerfield or cassisi came a played a game or two. i still firmly believe that the mini draft worked well and especially that accountability that players had to perform to a level to get a league game which is now just completely gone

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Not sure what the solution is…. But the current vfl is set up ridiculously with 21 teams and only 18 rounds. So maybe bringing the reserves back is the only solution, and reestablish the VFA with many of the teams that made it so great back in the day, Williamstown Preston Port Melbourne Werribee Sandringham coburg etc etc etc.

The Reserves will be a whopping great expense though for no benefit though. Lots of logistical issues too asking part time professional non listed players getting paid a pittance to fly all over the country, and how they source extra players when the numbers are down.

 

[eth-dog]

When the reserves come in, the only chance that the old VFA has of survival is if they merge them with TAC teams, and each AFL team has an alignment with them as the third tier. It probably won't happen and this isn't overly thought through but for example:

Carlton - Preston/Northern
Collingwood - Port/Oakleigh
Essendon - Coburg/Calder
Geelong - GWV Rebels expansion
GWS - Murray expansion
Hawthorne - Box Hill/Eastern
Melbourne - Casey/Gippsland
North Melbourne - Werribee/Falcons
Richmond - Sandringham X2
St Kilda - Frankston/Dandenong
Sydney - Bendigo expansion
Western Bulldogs - Williamstown/Jets

Not ideal letting Sydney and GWS align themselves with these teams but I don't really like the alternative.

I know Sandy and St Kilda have been aligned for a long time but they make more sense to be with Richmond and Frankston with St Kilda than the other way around.

12 teams, 22 games, play everyone twice and have a top 6. How it would work:

SF1: 3 v 6
SF2: 4 v 5

QF: 1 v 2
EF: WSF1 v WSF2

PF: LQF v WEF

GF: WQF v WPF

 

[Cubs2Lions]

When the reserves come in, the only chance that the old VFA has of survival is if they merge them with TAC teams, and each AFL team has an alignment with them as the third tier. It probably won't happen and this isn't overly thought through but for example:

Carlton - Preston/Northern
Collingwood - Port/Oakleigh
Essendon - Coburg/Calder
Geelong - GWV Rebels expansion
GWS - Murray expansion
Hawthorne - Box Hill/Eastern
Melbourne - Casey/Gippsland
North Melbourne - Werribee/Falcons
Richmond - Sandringham X2
St Kilda - Frankston/Dandenong
Sydney - Bendigo expansion
Western Bulldogs - Williamstown/Jets

Not ideal letting Sydney and GWS align themselves with these teams but I don't really like the alternative.

I know Sandy and St Kilda have been aligned for a long time but they make more sense to be with Richmond and Frankston with St Kilda than the other way around.

12 teams, 22 games, play everyone twice and have a top 6. How it would work:

SF1: 3 v 6
SF2: 4 v 5

QF: 1 v 2
EF: WSF1 v WSF2

PF: LQF v WEF

GF: WQF v WPF

What would happen with Brisbane and Gold Coast though.

Could they perhaps have a state-representing side (alongside NT and ACT).

 

[eth-dog]

What would happen with Brisbane and Gold Coast though.

Could they perhaps have a state-representing side (alongside NT and ACT).

Brisbane align with the Brizzie QAFL sides (Aspley, Morningside etc) and GC with Southport and others in the GC (Broadbeach, Labrador etc)

 

[Speck]

I think this is inevitable - travel cost will be high but seeing as they already do it with the VFL adding Adelaide and Perth seems feasible.

My initial thoughts are that AFL list sizes should be increased so they can field 2 teams without needing "additional players" outside the AFL list. This could mean drafting more 18 year olds or you could even look at lowering the draft age to 17 and using the AFL reserves as a pseudo talent league combined with fringe AFL players and kids getting used to playing with adults. That might be difficult with school though.

What it means for the standalone/aligned teams I don't know. As I understand Sandringham would die off without us and other teams will be in a similar position. Agree some harsh calls may need to be made - but do you start off with expanding the VFL with the 4 new teams then give the standalone/aligned teams some strict monetary/performance criteria to remain in the league? Might soften the blow to "killing off" teams.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The Reserves will be a whopping great expense though for no benefit though. Lots of logistical issues too asking part time professional non listed players getting paid a pittance to fly all over the country, and how they source extra players when the numbers are down.

Precisely

People seem to want reserves “just cos” without even thinking of the point of reserves

Players out of form
Develop young players
Returning players from injury

A national reserves comp does nothing to improve any of those factors.

In the case of players returning from injury, it’ll actively harm it. Flying is not a good thing for athletes, it’s only done out of necessity.

If somebody is returning from injury and part of their rehab is playing a quarter or a half and then building up… flying around the country to do that is utterly mad.

I don’t know why the push from Port and others… their reserves aren’t going to get a better standard than they do currently in the SANFL. And they have to fly around the country for away games rather than take a half hour drive.

 

[peetoo]

Precisely

People seem to want reserves “just cos” without even thinking of the point of reserves

Players out of form
Develop young players
Returning players from injury

A national reserves comp does nothing to improve any of those factors.

In the case of players returning from injury, it’ll actively harm it. Flying is not a good thing for athletes, it’s only done out of necessity.

If somebody is returning from injury and part of their rehab is playing a quarter or a half and then building up… flying around the country to do that is utterly mad.

I don’t know why the push from Port and others… their reserves aren’t going to get a better standard than they do currently in the SANFL. And they have to fly around the country for away games rather than take a half hour drive.

Good points

Maybe port are attention seeking? Not such a crazy reasom

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

The costs would of the Reserves themselves be high, but perhaps not as high as some think. Airfares and hotels are sponsor provided. Its not like AFL is paying retail price for the travel. There is still a cost, as companies would probably drop the amount they are willing to pay in sponsorship with the extra cost (and lost seat/room revenue) taken into account. Even that might be offset a little, the AFL is not above naming the Reserves to the <insert hotel chain here> League.
Given the benefits of standardising how clubs can develop their next tier of players, and removing the hybrid ridiculousness out of state comps, it seems worthwhile. If possible, and it may be too much, it would be preferable to see Port running AFL Power and SANFL Magpies - obviously completely different lists, etc, but an SANFL without Port loses something.

Stabilising state leagues, especially the VFL where clubs have been basically run by AFL masters for 20 years and lost their own identity, would incur another cost. But one better for the game overall, imo, than continuing the current mess. The AFL is supposed to be a non-profit custodian of the game, spending some of their profits to improve the sport (not just the league) is supposed to be what they do.

edit: 2025 may be too early, given how it will change both AFL and aligned state league club recruitment and lists and nothing is known about it. 2027 may be more feasible for forward planning.