Opinion Non-Crows AFL 6: This Is Getting Cruel

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Alastair Clarkson reveals his 'Four Ps' message to avoid off-season 'pitfalls'

“We talk about the four Ps, which is the piss, the punt, the p**** and the powder.”

www.zerohanger.com

 

[Bearded Clam]

It means it's not racism. Agreed? Then we can concentrate on the other issues that have been raised. I presume you're another that hasn't ever advised a friend that they shoukd consider exiting an abusive relationship. Good for you, it's actually pretty difficult and not actually enjoyable.

Geezuz dude… enough of the strawmen arguments.

How about you, and all of us here, deal with the allegations as they stand… we could dribble on for hours pointlessly following all these rabbit holes you are currently trying to take us down..

Its what you do in so many conversations like this.. Muddy the waters with all of these other “what ifs, could’ves and maybe’s”.

Currently we are talking about the findings of an investigation undertaken by the Hawthorn footy club into the treatment of its indigenous players..

which holds some absolutely fxxkn abhorent allegations.. do you agree?.

If these absolutely abhorent allegations also applied to all the players at hawthorn, regardless of their background, then that doesnt make it any better does it?.. fxxk no.

This is the angle you strangely seems to be taking.. that if all the players were subject to the same thing then its all of a sudden different. WTF sort of nonsense is that?..

 

[feenix67]

You need to consider what their defence would logically be. First it will be around context and then it'll be about why the conversations were happening in the first place which would risk disclosing private information which they wouldn't make public deliberately. We know that one of the indigenous ex-hawk players is estranged from his own family due to their relationship with his missus. I'd imagine uncle Michael's advice to that player mightn't have been too different to what was provided at the footy club. Of course you throw in the word abortion and headline it all with racism and cue the outrage, people lose their ability to think rationally. We've got posters basically saying that they wouldn't encourage a loved one to exit an abusive relationship or pry themselves away from toxic elements in their lives. I suppose you're one of them too.

Come on mate. You're missing a key point, that the advice was given by an employer (not a friend) because "it would be better for your football". That introduces self interest on the part of the club, and a clear instance of workplace bullying.

If an EMPLOYER told anyone to do that, they'd be sued to within an inch of its financial life.

 

[1970crow]

He's a journo, they have no obligation to respond and I'd strongly argue that providing any context or defence material would be a huge breach of trust and privacy. If they refuse to engage with the external investigation then you'd have a point.

 

[cleanhands]

Alastair Clarkson reveals his 'Four Ps' message to avoid off-season 'pitfalls'

“We talk about the four Ps, which is the piss, the punt, the p**** and the powder.”

www.zerohanger.com

I have not seen that before

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Players and even ordinary humans like us that are having ongoing partner problems would routinely be advised to consider an abortion as one of the 2 options if they were seeking counsel. So we can make it legal and support people's individual right to make that decision but we can't ever discuss it as an option? What kind of privileged existence are you all living. Can't advise to separate from toxic life elements either apparently. It's kind of the opposite to what we are told these days. Sure he/she is mentally and physically abusive, but I reckon you should just grin and bear it. I'm definitely not advising you to consider leaving that person.

Doesn't seem like the football coach's domain

 

[1970crow]

So you're saying the people involved either wouldn't defend themselves publicly, or if they did they would provide limited details.

In that case, why the fuss around "the other side of the story" and "not being given a chance to respond"?

Are we supposed to wait an indefinite amount of time to hear details that will never be revealed before forming an opinion?

The chance to respond within the investigation. They hadn't even received a copy of the investigation itself. What we're expected to do is wait for a full investigation that includes the experiences of the other parties involved so that the investigators are drawing conclusions based upon the entire story. What if the next big story is about how we told Tyson Stengle he needed to separate himself from his mates and move into the house of a coach or senior player otherwise his career was going to be short? Racist, yep, so far it's only him on the record and he's indigenous. Abuse of power, yep we're involv8ng ourselves in his private life. All we're missing is providing advice that an abortion is a viable option. Of course it's missing the inflammatory language like "demanded" and the kidnapping claims that you guys thrive on.

 

[Scorpus]

The chance to respond within the investigation. They hadn't even received a copy of the investigation itself. What we're expected to do is wait for a full investigation that includes the experiences of the other parties involved so that the investigators are drawing conclusions based upon the entire story. What if the next big story is about how we told Tyson Stengle he needed to separate himself from his mates and move into the house of a coach or senior player otherwise his career was going to be short? Racist, yep, so far it's only him on the record and he's indigenous. Abuse of power, yep we're involv8ng ourselves in his private life. All we're missing is providing advice that an abortion is a viable option. Of course it's missing the inflammatory language like "demanded" and the kidnapping claims that you guys thrive on.

Do you expect the official investigation report to be revealed to the public?

 

[1970crow]

You can't on one hand say I need to hear the other side of the story while simultaneously admitting that side won't be told or detailed to the public

Of course you can. A full investigation may conclude that the employees involved acted appropriately at all times given the circumstances. And that's all we'll know. Let's say that Clarko has 500 texts from a player all about how crazy their partner is, they need to get out, help me please...... Do you seriously think that should be made public?

 

[Geoffa32]

But you agree the that the racism component can be removed from the discussion to concentrate on the issue you identified above? I bet you can't, I bet that even if you found out that they've done that to white kids as well, you'll still not be able to let the racism bit go because you need it.

Do you think white players were given the same advice?
Or, given your time in Alice Springs, you can appreciate the view that family life can be seen as a "hassle" in terms of an AFL career from an outsider ie an AFL coach.


As you would know the commitment and responsibility to family is massive to these guys, and extends beyond parents and siblings.


So yeah the advice to distance from family and seek an abortion could have been given to white guys. But do you honestly think it was?




On SM-A325F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[1970crow]

How can you remove the racism component it’s in bedded intergenerational racism that existed in this country for as long as white people have been here. This is just another heinous example.
A proper investigation needs to happen but who would trust the AFL to do that properly.

I'm not. I'm saying that IF they have provided similar advice to non-indigenous players then the advice to these guys isn't motivated by race. Advice regarding toxic life elements isn't ordinarily based upon racist ideals. You do understand this I hope.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Players and even ordinary humans like us that are having ongoing partner problems would routinely be advised to consider an abortion as one of the 2 options if they were seeking counsel. So we can make it legal and support people's individual right to make that decision but we can't ever discuss it as an option? What kind of privileged existence are you all living. Can't advise to separate from toxic life elements either apparently. It's kind of the opposite to what we are told these days. Sure he/she is mentally and physically abusive, but I reckon you should just grin and bear it. I'm definitely not advising you to consider leaving that person.

Geez I dont know what arsebackward world you live in..

But the advice to “leave your missus, tell her to have an abortion, hand your sim card over to me and move in with one of our senior employees so we can keep an eye on you and make sure you dont have contact with anyone we think you should’nt including family and friends”

Isnt something that sounds like it should be coming from an employer..

Sounds exactly like something you’d expect to hear from a fxxkn cult leader!.

 

[feenix67]

Of course you can. A full investigation may conclude that the employees involved acted appropriately at all times given the circumstances. And that's all we'll know. Let's say that Clarko has 500 texts from a player all about how crazy their partner is, they need to get out, help me please...... Do you seriously think that should be made public?

You're coming up with an impressive range of mental gymnastics to support your man of straw there mate.

 

[Mego Red]

He's a journo who has covered a number of sport-related stories & won a couple of awards as a result.

He's close to the best longform investigative sports reporter in Australia. I'm amazed more people in this thread don't know who he is. You're almost guaranteed to know many of the stories he's broken.

 

[1970crow]

Geezuz dude… enough of the strawmen arguments.

How about you, and all of us here, deal with the allegations as they stand… we could dribble on for hours pointlessly following all these rabbit holes you are currently trying to take us down..

Its what you do in so many conversations like this.. Muddy the waters with all of these other “what ifs, could’ves and maybe’s”.

Currently we are talking about the findings of an investigation undertaken by the Hawthorn footy club into the treatment of its indigenous players..

which holds some absolutely fxxkn abhorent allegations.. do you agree?.

If these absolutely abhorent allegations also applied to all the players at hawthorn, regardless of their background, then that doesnt make it any better does it?.. fxxk no.

This is the angle you strangely seems to be taking.. that if all the players were subject to the same thing then its all of a sudden different. WTF sort of nonsense is that?..

Yeh, sounds horrific if true and there's no further context. But life tells me that is very unlikely. Have you had any experiences with truely toxic people. I'm not saying that if all players have the same experience then it's ok. All I'm saying is that if that is true, then there's no racism component. And given only indigenous players were the subject of the investigation, it could never uncover clubwide issues. And given that clear fact, the claims surrounding racism are premature. But the full investigation may prove it to be the case. It's not hard that to understand.

 

[Mego Red]

“Mayo”???

Do you mean to say the way Eddie interprets things that happen to him is an exaggeration because it has racist undertones?

Just because it might seem like a little thing to you, that does not mean it is a little thing to him.

Perhaps the reason Eddie sees the pool incident as being about his race … is because that is the truth he had lived his whole life. That generally, when singled out, it comes down to race.

As someone who has worked at pools for way too many years … you would not believe some of the stuff that comes out of peoples mouths for lifeguards to deal with. Can I imagine a situation where a patron points out someone by using their skin colour to identify them? Absolutely. Could I imagine the complaint being based in a lifetime of racist beliefs rather than a fair assessment of the actions/behaviour? Definitely. Could the lifeguard have communicated it in a way that passed on the racist element? For sure.

Maybe we can resist the urge to whitewash statements by people that experience racism everyday? I’m sure most in here find racism abhorrent, let’s not fall into the mistake of applying our skewed view over the top of someone else under the guise of “being fair to all sides”.

Hold on for a second - I did about five straight posts saying how there clearly could be truth to what Eddie said.

My last post made the concession that everyone is going to see things and retell them based on their own lived experiences. There's a chance that Eddie would weight racial motivations as for why someone did something as being more significant than that person may have meant.

I'm not dismissing him by any means. I'm both acknowledging the event occured and leaving the door open for the fact that perhaps the situation wasnt as simple as two children being asked to leave solely because they were indigenous.

 

[1970crow]

Come on mate. You're missing a key point, that the advice was given by an employer (not a friend) because "it would be better for your football". That introduces self interest on the part of the club, and a clear instance of workplace bullying.

If an EMPLOYER told anyone to do that, they'd be sued to within an inch of its financial life.

What advice do you reckon players get if they're hanging around a bad crowd and it's impacting their preparation and performance? If my employer said that me getting home at 4am and turning up hungover every day was impacting performance and would lead to warnings then I'd take it on board. And I certainly wouldn't have an actionable claim against them.

 

[feenix67]

What advice do you reckon players get if they're hanging around a bad crowd and it's impacting their preparation and performance? If my employer said that me getting home at 4am and turning up hungover every day was impacting performance and would lead to warnings then I'd take it on board. And I certainly wouldn't have an actionable claim against them.

Yeah, that scenario sounds similar to breaking up a relationship, cutting ties with my family and aborting my unborn child...

 

[1970crow]

Doesn't seem like the football coach's domain

Matthew Nix - 'this is my office, you can come in here any time and talk about life and stuff'. You don't think players go to coaches to seek advice outside of footy stuff? Then multiply that out where interstate players are concerned and remember that we're basically talking about children. 20 year olds barely have a clue about anything, I'd be very surprised if they don't lean on the coaches for lots of things.

 

[feenix67]

Matthew Nix - 'this is my office, you can come in here any time and talk about life and stuff'. You don't think players go to coaches to seek advice outside of footy stuff? Then multiply that out where interstate players are concerned and remember that we're basically talking about children. 20 year olds barely have a clue about anything, I'd be very surprised if they don't lean on the coaches for lots of things.

Sure, and the appropriate response from their coach would be to help them engage professionals to help them, while the coach helps him with what he's qualified to do, coach football.

 

[Mego Red]

Why?

If Eddie says it happened, I have no reason to think it didn't.

I'm just saying that when it comes to someone saying what another person's motivations were for it happening - well, Eddie can say based on his experiences why he thought it happened, but I'm not sure he can know. I don't know if I think anyone would be as overt as to say someone should leave because they're indigenous.

But hey - it's also absolutely possible, I wasn't there.

 

[Mego Red]

It’s easy, to be exonerated the accusers will not be able to provide any evidence to back up their allegations. So the apparent emails and texts won’t exist. And the court of public opinion will see they’ve been mislead and all will be forgiven.

If however, there IS evidence…. They are screwed.

I would think multiple testimonies backing up the events as in the article WOULD be evidence, especially in a scenario where those making statements have nothing to gain.

 

[1970crow]

Do you expect the official investigation report to be revealed to the public?

No, just like this report isn't being released to the public. What you've got is a journalists story on the report, not the report in full. Or did you get a copy?

 

[Mego Red]

Doesn't seem like the football coach's domain

I'm pretty sure that I've never advised an employee to break up with a partner or have an abortion, but hey I've never won a flag.

 

[1970crow]

Do you think white players were given the same advice?
Or, given your time in Alice Springs, you can appreciate the view that family life can be seen as a "hassle" in terms of an AFL career from an outsider ie an AFL coach.


As you would know the commitment and responsibility to family is massive to these guys, and extends beyond parents and siblings.


So yeah the advice to distance from family and seek an abortion could have been given to white guys. But do you honestly think it was?




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I think it honestly would be if given the same circumstances. We know that one ex-Hawk is estranged from his own family due to the influence of his partner. I would expect any person who has influence to provide this kind of advice to someone they care about if given the opportunity. Whether it's a toxic family member or friends, players would routinely be advised that their football is being impacted and that puts their careers at risk. I'm not saying this is the case, but there's a chance that a routine discussion has been recalled out of context and more severe than actually occurred. If you have only the toxic element and their victim recounting the story, it's going to be a little subjective.

Of course this being about race could be correct and Hawthorn may actually have kidnapped these 2 players. The full investigation will determine what crimes have been committed.