Opinion Non-Crows AFL 6: This Is Getting Cruel

[Scorpus]

No, just like this report isn't being released to the public. What you've got is a journalists story on the report, not the report in full. Or did you get a copy?

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It's not a journalist report on a report. The journalist's story includes first party quotes and accounts from interviews

 

[1970crow]

Yeah, that scenario sounds similar to breaking up a relationship, cutting ties with my family and aborting my unborn child...

You're right, I'm now certain that these guys just walked up out of nowhere and demanded that abortion, hijacked their phones and held them against their will at different houses. I'm sure Cyril Rioli isn't estranged from his own family because his missus definitely isn't a toxic lunatic. It's a single sided investigation, alarming claims have been made but conclusions cannot yet be drawn.

At this stage you're asking me to support the police sentencing people having only received a complaint from someone. They haven't even requested evidence from the accused. I don't know why I'm not surprised that people fall over themselves and ignore that obvious weakness. I should be, but sadly people have lost the ability to think rationally of they're provided an outrage opportunity.

 

[Scorpus]

You're right, I'm now certain that these guys just walked up out of nowhere and demanded that abortion, hijacked their phones and held them against their will at different houses. I'm sure Cyril Rioli isn't estranged from his own family because his missus definitely isn't a toxic lunatic. It's a single sided investigation, alarming claims have been made but conclusions cannot yet be drawn.

At this stage you're asking me to support the police sentencing people having only received a complaint from someone. They haven't even requested evidence from the accused. I don't know why I'm not surprised that people fall over themselves and ignore that obvious weakness. I should be, but sadly people have lost the ability to think rationally of they're provided an outrage opportunity.

It's concerning you think there are acceptable circumstances in which an employer requests the partner of an employee have an abortion

 

[1970crow]

It's not a journalist report on a report. The journalist's story includes first party quotes and accounts from interviews

So have you got a copy of it or not? You're the one demanding the proper report be released in full. So why not this one?

 

[1970crow]

Geez I dont know what arsebackward world you live in..

But the advice to “leave your missus, tell her to have an abortion, hand your sim card over to me and move in with one of our senior employees so we can keep an eye on you and make sure you dont have contact with anyone we think you should’nt including family and friends”

Isnt something that sounds like it should be coming from an employer..

Sounds exactly like something you’d expect to hear from a fxxkn cult leader!.

You need to start considering that what you're hearing/reading aren't actual quotes. And interestingly, it's also something you'd be hearing from someone trying to extract someone from a fxxkn cult leader.

 

[1970crow]

Sure, and the appropriate response from their coach would be to help them engage professionals to help them, while the coach helps him with what he's qualified to do, coach football.

Wasn't the welfare officer involved in all this. Is there any evidence that appropriate advice re professional assistance wasn't offered and provided where possible. Would it be plausible that this part of the experience was forgotten or not not included in the current report/article? Club doctors I would imagine would be pivotal here, do you not think that Hawthorn would ensure players that are struggling would be directed to them?

 

[arrowman]

Sure, and the appropriate response from their coach would be to help them engage professionals to help them, while the coach helps him with what he's qualified to do, coach football.

It's not hard to imagine an AFL coach having the ego / self importance to not recognise that line.

 

[1970crow]

I'm pretty sure that I've never advised an employee to break up with a partner or have an abortion, but hey I've never won a flag.

Has an employee ever come to you numerous times advising of relationship troubles and seeking your advice? Sure you can just fob them off to HR or tell them to seek a psychologist or other professional assistance. Or seeing as you have an existing relationship, you could offer your opinion if that's what they're asking for.

 

[Scorpus]

So have you got a copy of it or not? You're the one demanding the proper report be released in full. So why not this one?

That's not what I'm demanding. I'm pointing out an issue with the way some people want the story to play out

We have a detailed account of one side of the story. People read that and some people demand to see the other side of the story. Turns out that side of the story won't be revealed.

So what these people are asking for is either a) wait an infinite amount of time to read the "both sides" that will never come or b) it should have been conducted solely through an opaque investigation with no or limited information

I can't advocate for either of those positions, especially with the AFL. There is nothing wrong with the transparent way this is being reported on. This is what reporting SHOULD be.

If there is a legitimate defense I expect that to be reported on transparently as well. So far that defense has been requested and not provided.

 

[Mutineer]

Family separations and pregnancy termination: Hawthorn racism review reveals shock allegations against former coaches

Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan are named in a Hawthorn review into how First Nations players were treated during Clarkson's time at the helm of the Hawks. Warning — this story contains details of self-harm, pregnancy loss, and intergenerational trauma for Indigenous people.

www.abc.net.au

"ABC Sport put detailed questions about the allegations in this story to Clarkson, Fagan and Burt but at time of publication none had responded."

Why would they?

Who TF is the ABC to be accuser, judge and jury...

 

[1970crow]

You're coming up with an impressive range of mental gymnastics to support your man of straw there mate.

That's not a strawman, it's a hypothetical of what a proper investigation may uncover. Of course it may not and it ends up being confirmed that these blokes are racist sociopaths. But anything that I've posted in terms of a defence is purely hypothetical. Unlike you, I'm prepared to await the results of an actual all party, clubwide investigation before settling upon a conclusion. That you see any form of counterpoint as attempted evidence just shows how closed you mind is. Even a full investigation that exhonnerates these guys will be laughed off by most around here. You've made up your mind from a one sided investigation and it's tickled a fancy so that's that.

 

[jenny61_99]

Agree, but not racist. So until the investigation widens to include non-indigenous players, how can it be claimed to be racist? Everybody knows the investigation centred solely around only indigenous players, how is this ignored?

And whilst not as horrific, does anybody here seriously think that our club woukdnt counsel certain players to steer clear of toxic or counterproductive elements in their lives? It's obviously extreme to be suggesting abortions, but how about we consider what we'd suggest to someone seeking our counsel that has damaging elements in their life. It's not too big a leap to find yourself soeaking not too differently to those coaches. And imagine what the toxic element would say about you if given the opportunity.

This dude wasn’t “seeking counsel”though. He was sharing his excitement about his partner being pregnant. I don’t even understand why you are trying to justify this in any way, shape or form.

 

[jenny61_99]

That's rubbish, lucky you've never been involved in an investigation. Evidence to the benefit of the accused would potentially include evidence of ongoing counsel with the players regarding issues they were having with their relationships/life in general. We actually want and expect football clubs to assist players in these matters, so it follows that conversations around life in general occur ordinarily. Don't you remember the footage of Matty Nix telling that draftee that 'this is my office, you can come in here to talk about life and stuff'.

I don't underst@nd the outrage based upon what has been reported so far. I'll give you a personal example. I employed a bloke in Alice springs that I told couldn't have his partner's family at his house. His partner is indigenous. Racist and abhorrent right? Ok, I accept that based on what you've been told. But what if they'd been turfed from their town camp shared house and couldn't get a rental and I rented the place on their behalf so they didn't end up on the streets. And that first tiny flat I rented they had no problem with but then inherited 2 kids that were removed from parents so needed a larger property. What if I rented the property for them and their lease wasn't renewed due to the damage caused and I then had to lean on a personal relationship to get them another property that I rented. So what if my actual advice was that this is the last property that that I can rent for them and that if they don't make changes then this lease also won't be renewed and they'll be back on the streets and that having the family over seemed to be the major problem. Still racist? You'll probably say yes, but I'd provide the same advice whether the toxic elements were aboriginal or not.

Guy ended up addicted to ice and fleeing town leaving everything behind. I had dropped over one afternoon and this obvious deadbeat loser sauntered over. Vince had lived on the streets before and been in jail due to a string of minor burglary type offences. He came from a good Italian family but had reasonably severe cognitive impairment. Not sure if it was genetic or he cooked himself, but he was easily led and I told him that bloke was no good and to be careful. Just can't help some people.

Again I say.., this dude was excited about sharing the news of his partners pregnancy. He was not seeking counsel. This is NOT your situation which is completely and absolutely ****ing different! How about you stop imposing your lived experience into this one in an attempt to justify alleged shitty behaviour?

 

[1970crow]

It's concerning you think there are acceptable circumstances in which an employer requests the partner of an employee have an abortion

I don't think that at all and I've not posted as such. What I do think, is that in the context of an ongoing dialogue surrounding relationship troubles causing a player distress that is then heightened by pregnancy, it would be acceptable to advise the player that abortion is an option and that there's no reason to feel ashamed if that's the direction they wanted to head in. Now, I know that is not the context and language being reported here. And if proven to be as reported, then there's no place in society, let alone footy, for people like that. But I also think it's possible that some of the messaging or context from the time may have been lost or mis-remembered during the interviews. And a full investigation will hopefully uncover that so that if they have acted like sociopaths, they can be held properly to account.

 

[Scorpus]

Why would they?

Who TF is the ABC to be accuser, judge and jury...

Of course. Why would they provide their story? So why ask for it as if it was ever going to be revealed?

 

[1970crow]

It's not hard to imagine an AFL coach having the ego / self importance to not recognise that line.

"coach, I just found out the missus is shagging my best mate, what should I do?". "Go see HR mate."

 

[arrowman]

‘Distressed’ AFL coach speaks as ex-Hawthorn staffer stands down from school role

The fallout has continued as more accused football identities prepare to defend themselves in a looming investigation.

7news.com.au

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Sure - though I'm not sure what your point is?

Personally I think "whistle blower" is a very generous description of what Jenkins did, which was leak to the media about an incident that upset him. But I'm not going to argue with you over it - I guess that's his right if he feels he can't reach satisfaction by speaking to his employer directly.

Interesting last week on SEN .....Jenkins in general discussion described himself as a "Player's" man, and certainly not a "Club" man

IMO Jenkins simply couldn't find a happy medium between the two .....wonders why he was ever put into a Leadership Group

 

[Rotayjay]

Amongst all the news today we missed the big one.....FOG!!

For those who know Melbourne better than me, do they set up that competition where they are kicking with the wind, into the wind, or does it vary? Here in Adelaide the winds are generally from the west or southwest.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

But it's also false to say they haven't been given a chance to respond. They have been given a chance, and chose not to.

TBF .....if any accusations are levelled at someone ......it's always the correct course of action to defer ....a) to gather your thoughts, initially there's too much emotion & indignation... b) get legal advice, where we're talking millions $ of salary potentially being lost

 

[feenix67]

Wasn't the welfare officer involved in all this. Is there any evidence that appropriate advice re professional assistance wasn't offered and provided where possible. Would it be plausible that this part of the experience was forgotten or not not included in the current report/article? Club doctors I would imagine would be pivotal here, do you not think that Hawthorn would ensure players that are struggling would be directed to them?

Nope, no welfare officer involved. I suggest you go and actually read the article, instead of just firing off hypotheticals to protect your preconceptions.

 

[Scorpus]

For those who know Melbourne better than me, do they set up that competition where they are kicking with the wind, into the wind, or does it vary? Here in Adelaide the winds are generally from the west or southwest.

I think it's usually a crosswind

 

[feenix67]

That's not a strawman, it's a hypothetical of what a proper investigation may uncover. Of course it may not and it ends up being confirmed that these blokes are racist sociopaths. But anything that I've posted in terms of a defence is purely hypothetical. Unlike you, I'm prepared to await the results of an actual all party, clubwide investigation before settling upon a conclusion. That you see any form of counterpoint as attempted evidence just shows how closed you mind is. Even a full investigation that exhonnerates these guys will be laughed off by most around here. You've made up your mind from a one sided investigation and it's tickled a fancy so that's that.

Not at all, but at this stage of proceedings, you hypotheticals rank last in terms of credible possibilities.

 

[arrowman]

"coach, I just found out the missus is shagging my best mate, what should I do?". "Go see HR mate."

"Leave her. Today. I'll come round and pick you up. Change your phone number, ghost her."

That's where the line is crossed.

 

[feenix67]

I don't think that at all and I've not posted as such. What I do think, is that in the context of an ongoing dialogue surrounding relationship troubles causing a player distress that is then heightened by pregnancy, it would be acceptable to advise the player that abortion is an option and that there's no reason to feel ashamed if that's the direction they wanted to head in. Now, I know that is not the context and language being reported here. And if proven to be as reported, then there's no place in society, let alone footy, for people like that. But I also think it's possible that some of the messaging or context from the time may have been lost or mis-remembered during the interviews. And a full investigation will hopefully uncover that so that if they have acted like sociopaths, they can be held properly to account.

You realise that offering an employee specific medical advice is essentially illegal right? Unless you're a doctor of course.

In the modern workplace, there is not one scenario where saying to an employee "abortion is an option" is appropriate.