2nds Official Swans Academy Thread (Player News and Discussion)

[rustycrate]

I can’t agree here.

Sydney has recruited lots of indigenous players in recent years and to suggest there’s some kind of “unconscious bias” against indigenous recruits is unreasonable.

Further, it’s a professional sport - recruiting decisions need to be based on talent and attitude, not race.

No need to worry about how many indigenous players there are in the draft and whether we will get one. What is that all about?
Through the new academy we WILL create an inclusive environment that will attract indigenous people to be leaders in OUR club.
Whether we have indigenous fitness staff, admin, whatever. The essential thing is that we have an enabled inclusive avenue for indigenous players to fall into OUR club and be successful at all levels. Hopefully attracting more. Numbers do not matter. It is the fact that players want to come to the Swans because they feel like they can have success that matters.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I can't agree with that. I'm all for acknowledging ways we can improve and I get in trouble on here for doing so more often than not. But on the issue of indigenous recruitment, I don't see how we could've done anything differently.

If you look at the draft classes each year, the indigenous representation always means there are slim pickings in an 18-club competition (which is the result of the reasons I spoke of above.) We can't just draft someone because they're indigenous. If we did, we could've drafted Irving Mosquito (retired) instead of James Rowbottom (3rd in our best and fairest). Or Sydney Stack (delisted) instead of Justin McInerney (2x Rising Star nominee). Or Sam Ramsay (delisted) instead of Chad Warner (2nd in our best and fairest).

It's also not as if we haven't still drafted indigenous players. We drafted Lewis Jetta and he won a premiership with us, but he was homesick. We drafted Elijah Taylor, who was incredibly promising but had issues that forced us to part ways with him. We drafted James Bell from our academy and Tony Armstrong, and recruited Shaun Edwards, but he turns out to be not quite good enough. If their tenures with us turn out differently and they're all still on our list, does our recruiting pass the indigenous quota? All of a sudden yes it does.

The mixture of inability, personal issues and homesickness that led to all of the above not working out with us, just further speaks to the work that the league as a whole (NOT our recruiters specifically) has to do to both improve the pathway for indigenous players into the AFL, and the support system for indigenous players once they're in the AFL.

(Apologies for the rant)

I can’t agree here.

Sydney has recruited lots of indigenous players in recent years and to suggest there’s some kind of “unconscious bias” against indigenous recruits is unreasonable.

Further, it’s a professional sport - recruiting decisions need to be based on talent and attitude, not race.

I can respect the fact that you both don’t agree (this would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything).

I also acknowledge that there is not enough data in recent years to form a strong conclusions against the Swans. And I certainly agree that we can look at our draft picks and make claims the Swans have chosen very strong talent - that is undeniable.

What makes me ask myself the question though is that this year our mens list will be about 2.5% Indigenous players while I believe the league average is something like 20% or more (apologies if I got this wrong). And there is a chance that next year our mens list may be 0% Indigenous.

I think you both highlight some good reasons why our representation may lower than average due to chance and happenstance be lower. I’m just not sure whether it explains it all.

Maybe at the top end of the draft we recruited the right players, but did we miss any Indigenous player talent in the later picks or through rookie picks?

When focusing on competitive, safe and coachable players are we forming judgements with elements of bias? And at times may we be valuing these attributes over other attributes?

Did we do enough to support Taylor? Taylor obviously came with a complex background, and we may have done everything we could do support him (and regardless he is principally responsible for his terrible actions), but I do wonder if our support was as good as it could have been (I could be wrong but I believe he may have done what he did while on suspension for breaking covid protocols).

To be super clear, I don’t for a second think the Swans have any negative intent against indigenous players. And I actually think the Swans would be one of the most inclusive clubs for a player of any background to play at. It is generally that organisations make progress with diversity before they make progress with inclusion. It seems to me that Swans are extremely good on inclusion but may need to make some progress on diversity.

I would actually be surprised if these questions were not being openly asked and discussed at executive and board levels at the Swans.

Anyway, regardless of our leanings on these questions, I think we can all agree that the First Nations Academy is a great initiative and will hopefully help us attract and retain more Indigenous talent in the future.

Sorry for the long post - I appreciate this is a space that we all enter with good intent and so I felt I needed additional words to (hopefully) communicate effectively and with balance.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

I can respect the fact that you both don’t agree (this would be a boring place if we all agreed on everything).

I also acknowledge that there is not enough data in recent years to form a strong conclusions against the Swans. And I certainly agree that we can look at our draft picks and make claims the Swans have chosen very strong talent - that is undeniable.

What makes me ask myself the question though is that this year our mens list will be about 2.5% Indigenous players while I believe the league average is something like 20% or more (apologies if I got this wrong). And there is a chance that next year our mens list may be 0% Indigenous.

I think you both highlight some good reasons why our representation may lower than average due to chance and happenstance be lower. I’m just not sure whether it explains it all.

Maybe at the top end of the draft we recruited the right players, but did we miss any Indigenous player talent in the later picks or through rookie picks?

When focusing on competitive, safe and coachable players are we forming judgements with elements of bias? And at times may we be valuing these attributes over other attributes?

Did we do enough to support Taylor? Taylor obviously came with a complex background, and we may have done everything we could do support him (and regardless he is principally responsible for his terrible actions), but I do wonder if our support was as good as it could have been (I could be wrong but I believe he may have done what he did while on suspension for breaking covid protocols).

To be super clear, I don’t for a second think the Swans have any negative intent against indigenous players. And I actually think the Swans would be one of the most inclusive clubs for a player of any background to play at. It is generally that organisations make progress with diversity before they make progress with inclusion. It seems to me that Swans are extremely good on inclusion but may need to make some progress on diversity.

I would actually be surprised if these questions were not being openly asked and discussed at executive and board levels at the Swans.

Anyway, regardless of our leanings on these questions, I think we can all agree that the First Nations Academy is a great initiative and will hopefully help us attract and retain more Indigenous talent in the future.

Sorry for the long post - I appreciate this is a space that we all enter with good intent and so I felt I needed additional words to (hopefully) communicate effectively and with balance.

I respect your depth of thought on this issue - and I’m a huge fan of an Indigenous Academy. Perhaps there might be a role for James Bell within it.

There is, however, one matter in your post I can’t let lie. Elijah Taylor.

The Swans recruited Taylor when nobody else would. He was an undeniable talent, but AFL club list managers deemed him too big a risk during his draft year, due to behavioural issues.

The Swans placed their faith in Taylor and in doing so gave him a wonderful opportunity. He chose to betray that faith - and there can be no excuse for physically assaulting a woman.

Being indigenous doesn’t completely absolve you of personal responsibility. I fail to see how the Swans could (or should) have provided more support. He absolutely had to be sacked.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

I respect your depth of thought on this issue - and I’m a huge fan of an Indigenous Academy. Perhaps there might be a role for James Bell within it.

There is, however, one matter in your post I can’t let lie. Elijah Taylor.

The Swans recruited Taylor when nobody else would. He was an undeniable talent, but AFL club list managers deemed him too big a risk during his draft year, due to behavioural issues.

The Swans placed their faith in Taylor and in doing so gave him a wonderful opportunity. He chose to betray that faith - and there can be no excuse for physically assaulting a woman.

Being indigenous doesn’t completely absolve you of personal responsibility. I fail to see how the Swans could (or should) have provided more support. He absolutely had to be sacked.

Oh don’t get me wrong. Taylor is 100% accountable for his despicable actions and no one should be taking pity on him. The Swans were 100% right to sack him. I hope he is taking accountability for his actions, turning his life around and making a mends (to the extent this is possible for the survivor of his assault).

My question, and I don’t presume to know the answer, though I am certain that everyone at the Swans did what was their best at the time, is whether we could have done anything differently (not necessarily more) to better support Taylor.

I am sure the Swans leadership has reflected on this deeply, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have concluded there was nothing they could do for Taylor. I would be shocked if we did anything overtly wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised though if there were one or two things we would do differently if we had our time again.

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Oh don’t get me wrong. Taylor is 100% accountable for his despicable actions and no one should be taking pity on him. The Swans were 100% right to sack him. I hope he is taking accountability for his actions, turning his life around and making a mends (to the extent this is possible for the survivor of his assault).

My question, and I don’t presume to know the answer, though I am certain that everyone at the Swans did what was their best at the time, is whether we could have done anything differently (not necessarily more) to better support Taylor.

I am sure the Swans leadership has reflected on this deeply, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have concluded there was nothing they could do for Taylor. I would be shocked if we did anything overtly wrong. I wouldn’t be surprised though if there were one or two things we would do differently if we had our time again.

Given that Taylor committed acts of domestic violence yet again earlier this year (against a new partner), I dare say there’s nothing much the Swans could have done to help him.

Anyway, we’re probably off topic here in the James Bell thread!

 

[caesar88]

Given that Taylor committed acts of domestic violence yet again earlier this year (against a new partner), I dare say there’s nothing much the Swans could have done to help him.

Anyway, we’re probably off topic here in the James Bell thread!

It's a great discussion with valid points made on both sides. I will round out my two cents by saying that Bell is the prototype for what the First Nations Academy will be trying to achieve. Bringing committed, disciplined and focused indigenous teenagers into the AFL system.

In every way except the required ability, Bell was as well placed to succeed in the AFL system as anyone. A role model to his community, a driven, hard-working athlete, and a popular and well-liked clubman. Imagine what we could be seeing come through the ranks if those qualities are applied to some of the exceptional talents that are out there with untapped potential.

 

[scaryness]

Above convo is probably more relevant in this thread than the Bell thread

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Great discussion everyone. I like that on this board we can have constructive discussions about these things.

And agree 100% that James Bell

32

James Bell

Age

25

Ht

183cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.5

4star

G

0.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

7.0

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

2.5

3star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.5

4star

G

0.5

3star

is the epitome of what makes our club great. He got everything out of himself and gave so much to the club. He should leave with his head held high.

 

[Maximumlnsanity]

Given that Taylor committed acts of domestic violence yet again earlier this year (against a new partner), I dare say there’s nothing much the Swans could have done to help him.

Anyway, we’re probably off topic here in the James Bell thread!

Wait what? He did it again? Should've put that ****er in jail after the first one. Yeah can't help someone like that, we're just a football club

 

[Dubai Quacker]

Wait what? He did it again? Should've put that *er in jail after the first one. Yeah can't help someone like that, we're just a football club

Unfortunately it’s paywalled - but I did read the article back when it was published back in January.

Fallen AFL player faces more family violence-related charges

Former AFL player Elijah Taylor’s football career appears all but over after the banished Sydney Swan was again in court on family violence-related matters — this time involving his new partner.

thewest.com.au

 

[BloodySwan]

That's a weird piece IMO. They've cast the sample net so narrow that it's impossible to judge a team's drafting one way or the other.

Campbell and Gulden were academy picks. We've only had 15 live picks in that time and only 2 of them are best 22 (McDonald on the fringes). 11 of the others have played one game or less.

Don't get me wrong I would also give our recruiting a 9/10 for sure, but I'd do that based on our recruiting from say 2013-2018, not the last few years when almost everyone drafted is still an unknown, speculative prospect.

Academy picks are still draft pics. You don't ignore them because they work out.

 

[rustycrate]

Academy picks are still draft pics. You don't ignore them because they work out.

Academy picks seem to be disregarded even by our own supporters as some kind of free hit that is exclusive to the Swans. No one talks about Brisbane's 2 "free hits" this year. Imagine if Sydney had the same players(Ashcroft and Fletcher) coming out of our academy. There would be outrage to the extent that the senior AFL puppets would be uncomfortable and maybe considering rule changes etc. No one talks about father sons that kick started Geelong's reign of success almost 2 decades ago. No one talks about Western Bulldogs father sons. No one talks about the amount of father/sons that Collingwood has enjoyed over the years. Eddie never talked about it.

I agree. Academy picks are still draft picks.
Never get sucked into the Melbourne centric narrative that Sydney has some sort of an advantage that other clubs do not.

 

[caesar88]

Academy picks are still draft pics. You don't ignore them because they work out.

If it's an article literally judging the performance of our recruiting staff then yes you do ignore them. Beatson & Dalrymple did not find Heeney, Mills, Blakey, Campbell and Gulden. They were given to them on a silver platter by years of development by the academy staff. All they had to do was acquire the necessary picks to match bids on them.

 

[Bandicoot]

Academy picks seem to be disregarded even by our own supporters as some kind of free hit that is exclusive to the Swans. No one talks about Brisbane's 2 "free hits" this year. Imagine if Sydney had the same players(Ashcroft and Fletcher) coming out of our academy. There would be outrage to the extent that the senior AFL puppets would be uncomfortable and maybe considering rule changes etc. No one talks about father sons that kick started Geelong's reign of success almost 2 decades ago. No one talks about Western Bulldogs father sons. No one talks about the amount of father/sons that Collingwood has enjoyed over the years. Eddie never talked about it.

I agree. Academy picks are still draft picks.
Never get sucked into the Melbourne centric narrative that Sydney has some sort of an advantage that other clubs do not.

Our past players have obviously failed us by not providing us with half a dozen or so father/son selections.

 

[BloodySwan]

If it's an article literally judging the performance of our recruiting staff then yes you do ignore them. Beatson & Dalrymple did not find Heeney, Mills, Blakey, Campbell and Gulden. They were given to them on a silver platter by years of development by the academy staff. All they had to do was acquire the necessary picks to match bids on them.

It still counts. Plenty of academy picks haven't turned out. Do we get a pass on Hiscox because he was an academy pick? Had we passed on Gulden would that could as a fail? If Campbell is a flop it's still counted as a poor pick.

 

[caesar88]

It still counts. Plenty of academy picks haven't turned out. Do we get a pass on Hiscox because he was an academy pick? Had we passed on Gulden would that could as a fail? If Campbell is a flop it's still counted as a poor pick.

To each their own I guess but the academy picks - good or bad, for any club - shouldn't be counted in evaluations of draft hauls. Recruiters don't deserve credit for landing players they had exclusive rights to.

 

[Jewelsbon]

If it's an article literally judging the performance of our recruiting staff then yes you do ignore them. Beatson & Dalrymple did not find Heeney, Mills, Blakey, Campbell and Gulden. They were given to them on a silver platter by years of development by the academy staff. All they had to do was acquire the necessary picks to match bids on them.

But isn't accumulating the right amount of points, particularly if there is more than one player available, a talent to be acknowledged? Also juggling the points needed whilst still drafting a talented player or two is something I think our recruitment team has been pretty successful at.

 

[caesar88]

But isn't accumulating the right amount of points, particularly if there is more than one player available, a talent to be acknowledged? Also juggling the points needed whilst still drafting a talented player or two is something I think our recruitment team has been pretty successful at.

Not really IMO. On the overwhelming majority of occasions clubs have been able to acquire the necessary picks and points to match bids on their players, so I don't think it's a particularly noteworthy feat.

 

[bedford]

Where are we

 

[rustycrate]

Where are we

Off topic

 

[bedford]

Off topic

Sorry i got lost

 

[Jewelsbon]

Not really IMO. On the overwhelming majority of occasions clubs have been able to acquire the necessary picks and points to match bids on their players, so I don't think it's a particularly noteworthy feat.

So you don't think in 2020, keeping pick 4 whilst also accumulating the points to match bids on Campbell and Gulden was a job well done?

 

[bedford]

I'm still lost rustycrate help

 

[caesar88]

So you don't think in 2020, keeping pick 4 whilst also accumulating the points to match bids on Campbell and Gulden was a job well done?

No, it was a job done. We didn't have a single live pick for the rest of the draft after that pick 4. Such is life when matching bids on academy players so I'm neither critical nor complimentary of our efforts there. It is what it is.

A better argument would be 2018, where our pick swap shenanigans allowed us to have another live pick after matching the bid on Blakey. But even then, it didn't help us get Blakey at all. He was already ours. What it did was help us get Rowbottom too. Job done getting Blakey, job well done getting Rowbottom. I guess that is how I'd define it but to each their own.

 

[rustycrate]

I'm still lost rustycrate help

Off topic