Preview Official Thread - Round 1 - Melbourne v Brisbane Lions

[Bobby Beecroft]

Was looking forward to round 1, but after reading this thread I might just go and top myself. Would be good to see a bit more discussion on what the the coaching staff are trying to do, rather than just being about why it's wrong.

But Grim some of us are confused at what the coaches are trying to achieve.
Pre-season is enough to warrant non-selection for some, but not others. We desperately need goals but will most likely revert back to something that has a history of not working. Our strength will be weakened if a particular move is made.

These points have been debated in a good manner so I don't see the issue. If people don't like reading some negative thoughts then get over it as unfortunatley the Lions Board in 2012 may not be the spot for you, as John (always negative ) said could be a long one. Another year of player development, & no quick fix.

What is BF for in not debating concerns?

PS. sorry to be negative but why sugarcoat things?

 

[Mr Ripper]

Surprise may be our best weapon.

Fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the pope!

No-one will expect that.

 

[Ceebee]

Was looking forward to round 1, but after reading this thread I might just go and top myself. Would be good to see a bit more discussion on what the the coaching staff are trying to do, rather than just being about why it's wrong.

Was thinking the same thing last night Grim.

I actually think the team looks ok and am hoping we can win.

Not sure why so many people are so critical, before we have even played a game.
Would be nice to give them a bit of a chance, before giving up on them.

Lions by 10 points.

 

[doddgey]

I don’t think the side we have selected is conservative at all. I think the forward line is a radical departure from what we have previously run with.

Conservative would be plonking guys like Ace and Retzlaff in the forward line, watching the opposition run the ball out of defence with ease every time we did not hold a contested mark.

Don’t know if it will work or not but they are clearly trying something different.

Well said.
Whilst I am puzzled by some of the selections ( positions aside ) I think this side has been matched specifically to this game. I think the assumption is that Melbourne is going to be fired up and play a very physical game, firstly for Stynes and secondly for Neeld. We appear to have gone with players that will handle that, although personally I would have liked to have seen Harwood in the side.
The side selected has a number of options available to the coaching staff and I think there will be positional changes happening all day forwards to backline and vice versa.
I agree with weevil that this forward line is actually a pretty bold move and I think the setup is designed to have the goals kicked by the mids and the smalls.
One thing that did strike me with the side is it's mobility, gee there is some run. Let's hope it is enough.

 

[GingerGreatness]

I hope we go again against Carlton with the same front 6.

Just so I can bang on and on and on about being the stronger team for having an unpredicatable forward line.

 

[Haso]

Yeah, I have no criticisms just yet. The poor guys haven't even played a poper season match yet and they are getting crucified. Let's just wait to see if Polks and Sheldon continue their poor form. Let's wait to see if Merrett doesn't create a presence up forward or kick goals. Let's wait to see if McKeever continues to look lost.

The whole selection system will change again when Brownie comes back into the team, I feel. He won't just be slotting into the place of whoever replaced him, I think there will be a reshuffle and players like Patty K will slot back in.

 

[Grimreepah]

But Grim some of us are confused at what the coaches are trying to achieve.
Pre-season is enough to warrant non-selection for some, but not others. We desperately need goals but will most likely revert back to something that has a history of not working. Our strength will be weakened if a particular move is made.

These points have been debated in a good manner so I don't see the issue. If people don't like reading some negative thoughts then get over it as unfortunatley the Lions Board in 2012 may not be the spot for you, as John (always negative ) said could be a long one. Another year of player development, & no quick fix.

What is BF for in not debating concerns?

PS. sorry to be negative but why sugarcoat things?

BB, BigFooty doesn't just have to be about people pretending they know what's best. Not everything has to be defined in terms of good and bad. IMO the more interesting discussion comes from trying to delve into the minds of the coaches, trying to look at things from their perspective and exploring what they are trying to achieve, instead of just dismissing what they do as wrong.

 

[Hollow Knight]

BB, BigFooty doesn't just have to be about people pretending they know what's best. Not everything has to be defined in terms of good and bad. IMO the more interesting discussion comes from trying to delve into the minds of the coaches, trying to look at things from their perspective and exploring what they are trying to achieve, instead of just dismissing what they do as wrong.

My thoughts exactly. Too much black and white discussion. Some people seem to launch immediately from "Hmm I don't necessarily agree with Voss's thinking there" to"OMFG Voss are you mental? Playing favorites? Ignoring the other coaches?".

Like you I'd rather discuss the possible logic and reasons behind why particular decisions are made. There seems to be an underlying expectation though that we have to declare an extreme polar position in advance... Voss is either the messiah or a complete idiot out to destroy the club from within. How about the middle ground "Voss is a coach with tough decisions to make and not many easy answers to any of them".

I am genuinely reticent to try and explore the middle ground and try and discuss the logic behind various selections (even if I don't necessarily agree with it) because if you even afford Voss's decisions a shred of latitude and consideration (or anything less than unreserved condemnation) you are at risk of being branded an apologist.

I am tired of having to qualify every post with "I don't necessarily agree with the decision" just to offset the chance of being called a sheep.

 

[Haso]

Like you I'd rather discuss the possible logic and reasons behind why particular decisions are made.

This is a great approach. That's how we do it in the psych business, anyway.

 

[cjwalkley]

After last night's game, it is clear that all our good ball users need to be in the back half.

To beat the press we need McGrath, Hanley, Adcock and Golby back there, with Polec and Rich working back to assist. Turnovers backward of centre result in easy goals and loss of game.

 

[Cousin Jed]

Have we lost yet?

 

[Quigley]

I am not making the connection between the selected team and Vossy believing the squad is shit.

I genuinely look at the team and think that Voss is trying to win the game.

I may not agree with every selection but I can at least see an underlying logic as to why Voss selected them. Some decisions will work, some won't. The ones that don't work doesnt retrospectively change the fact that there was some level of logic underpinning it.

I don't think that Voss is anything close to a master coach, but nor do I think he is a braindead idiot. It would be nice to be able to post here without being expected to nail your flag to either mast.

I can understand the logic of each selection but you are supposed to be selecting a team. Each individual selection may be able to be justified in isolation but when you end up with a team with a gaping hole up forward there is a massive problem with the process.

I also have to say if the coaching staff had such an incredibly low opinion of the tall forward options that they do not rate them enough even to pick even one of them in this side why the bloody hell didn't we pick a prospect or two in the last draft? If Voss does not rate the cattle why wait another year before we pick someone and put the recovery back another year? They may not have rated the tall options particularly highly this year but FFS why add yet another mid sized runner with average skills when we could take a punt on an exceptionally quick FF with great hands and who is a lovely kick at goal albeit he is a little short (Kersten for those playing along at home).

As far as what the plan is this is how I think they would be justifying it and hoping to win:

1. Play the two senior rucks and run them hard at Jamar and wear him down. Both are big bodies and legit number 1 rucks. The aim will be to get over the Melb ruck combination and give our mids the best chance to get first use.

2. It will be absolutely critical that our mids win out of the middle. On paper we look good with Black, Redden, Rich and Rockliff. The latter 3 should all be improved with another preseason under their belt and ready to step up. Adcock in the middle also gives us another good clearance player who can play a run with role but still win his own ball.

3. Get our more skilled players running the wings and delivering into the forward 50. Rich is the guy we will obviously try to feed a lot as he is a great long kick that can pinpoint a target. Polec is another who we will want to utilise with his kicking skills. Hanley is the third guy here who will link up out of defense and work up onto the wing where his skills will be very important.

4. Our forward line will be open and mobile with the forwards instructed to move and create space as much as possible on long leads and drag defenders outside the 50 and to the pockets if they are not hit up initially. Mids will need to run forward hard and look to burn off their opponents and pick up open marks 40m or so out in the space caused by the forwards. Redden and Rockliff are two to really look for here with Rich and Polec to have a ping from 50 if no-one comes to them.

5. The resting ruck will play deep and will be instructed to simply crash packs get the ball to the ground. From there Beams and Banfield can work and the defensive press can take effect if Melb come away with the ball.

6. We will press hard but with the forward line we have we will also drop back quickly as Melb try to break. We have picked a very defensive team and are sacrificing goal scoring opportunities for the ability to restrict Melb from scoring goals. It is imperative that the forwards we have picked not only defend in the forward half but also get back and provide live bodies in the midfield defensively. The forwards in this game will be expected to cover a lot of ground.

7. The midfield group MUST work harder defensively than they have done the last few years. They have been a revolving door and that should not be acceptable this year. We need to hold them up and make sure all disposals are pressured if nothing else.

8. The defensive unit should be a strength of our side. We have a lot of height to go with the very tall Melb unit. If the ball is coming in with even a modicum of pressure I would back our defenders to win a lot more than they lose against this Melb side. Expect McKeever to go with Watts and his running ability and height should give Watts trouble.

9. Coming out of defense we will try and get it to the small unit. McGrath, Golby and Hanley all have good skills and are good running options. I would green light them to take on the press with run and then kick over the top. When the ball turns over our forwards and mids need to work into the seams in the zone quickly and get open. Don't stand around with the bloke they were picking up a few seconds before. Quickly break to space. Our small defenders should have the footskills to find the open men.

10. Once the ball is out of defence it is then fast break football. This is when it should be easiest to score. We need not only to make space for that first kick from defence but then also be moving for the next kick and the forwards flooding forward to get onto a kick into the 50. If we get the ball stop, look around, go back and then take 20secs to work out what we are going to do (I am looking at you Stiller) we will struggle even more. We have no legitimate tall forwards so quick movement is essential.

 

[dlanod]

Have we lost yet?

I feel like I have... I just read the last eight pages.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Great read Quigs. Looking forward to digesting that in my lunch break and responding.

 

[POBT]

I pretty much agree with all of those 10 points Quigs.

Seeing them together on paper, I have to say that I am pretty happy with our developing mix of midfielders. I think we've got some way to go but it is worth remembering that 12-24 months ago, this looked like the weakest part of our structure. We're getting there - however, it is time for some of those guys to step up because we do need to win the midfield if we're going to be any chance in this one.

 

[LouisCK]

Our backline isn't at full strength (Joel Mac is playing.... yikes) but your forwardline looks a bit weak. Who are the players in the forward line we wouldn't have faced before?

We struggled mostly against the gorilla types last year, guys like Cloke for example. Anyone similar at Brissy this week?

I think the midfield is, as usual, going to be the most important area - I'd say you guys probably have a talent edge there but we might have more depth and a stronger ruck unit.

History suggests we should win this, but even last year we only beat you by 11 at the G so really anything could happen. I'd expect Clark to play well though, just a hunch but these 'inconsistent' types tend to play well against their old teams (have seen it happen to us too many times with TJ, Farmer etc)

 

[Hollow Knight]

Our backline isn't at full strength (Joel Mac is playing.... yikes) but your forwardline looks a bit weak.

Our forward line on the day is not going to look like that. It will probably be similarly weak though.

As for "gorilla" forwards, Merrett looks like the major one.

 

[LouisCK]

Our forward line on the day is not going to look like that. It will probably be similarly weak though.

As for "gorilla" forwards, Merrett looks like the major one.

Yeah true, and I can guarantee we won't line up like this:

HF: Jack Trengove, Brad Green, Jeremy Howe
F: Aaron Davey, Mitch Clark, Stef Martin

Watts will get time up forward, but will play some midfield or even back at times.

Davey may actually end up playing forward most of the time, which would be fantastic as he wasn't given that chance under Bailey and its where he does his best work. Trengove will obviously play significant time in the midfield and Martin will do a fair bit of ruckwork alternating with Jamar.

The ruck battle looks to be really good actually. Melbourne have three legit ruckmen (one who we are told will only play forward though, so probably doesn't count) and Brisbane have two. Dees probably have the edge in tapwork (mostly due to Jamar, as Martin isn't great at tapwork but gets a lot more of the ball) but Brisbane have the edge in running ability. Could be a really key battle.

 

[cjwalkley]

Beautiful day for training and guess who is joining in!

 

[FromOldFitzroy]

I feel like I have... I just read the last eight pages.

Agree.
When I first saw the named team I thought what the hell.
Patful & Leuey would have to be the worst combo ever for CHF & FF. I certainly hope they don't line up like that.
Positives for us is that our midfield group is getting better. We have added Polec, Beams & Bewick,Harwood is not far away, and Docherty may slot in, along with Bartlett & Zorko.
Down back Golby shapes as a positive, McKeever while not good in the NAB cup can play based on the end of last year, and Rich at half back and Hanley are positives.
Longer apparently was good in the NAB cup. A long term gain.
Forward line without Brown is not good, though Lester is a versatile gain, & presumably Karnezis will come back to form. As many posters have said, Banfield rushes it. If Sheldon as a shut-down forward alternates with McGrath, McGrath being forward when we are having a good spell, then that is a positive. Polks has also proved himself playing forward.
I would have thought myself that Lisle/Cornelius/Retzlaff are each told you have 4 games in a row, we won't drop you whatever happens, and sort it out that way, because at the moment we just don't know.
A negative is that we don't seem to have a plan in mind when we have possession at midfield. We bomb it long - well Brown always has multiple opponents, Leuey doesn't mark much.
I wonder how much time Voss has left to get some wins?

 

[Tassie4ever]

MacMum: feel free to criticise my opinions, such as they are, but not of sarcasm when Quigley and others far more literate than me (blame UniQ for that) express more or less the same opinion and escape your lash.

If anyone thinks we are an improving side when we play the same old 6 or 7 battlers they are kidding.

And it's an absolute travesty that well into the great JB's decline his not unexpected absence throws us once again into total dissaray. This is not a problem that began this season.

 

[matwt73]

I am intrigued by our line up, and will be interested to see how it actually lines up on the day, and how it works.

I think the idea of McKeever, playing in the same line as our two most experienced backmen, will help his development and positioning, though I do wonder if that could have been done through the preseason.

I like Polec and Hanley on the wing and rich at HB, i think it gives us the option of running through the lines, or using Rich's kicking to go quickly into the forward line.

That being the case though, i would have thought someone like Acorn who is a good mark on the lead might have been an option, but I accept none of the possible KPF's really stpped up during th NAB.

Surprised to not see Karnezis there too.

Ultimately I will be watching closely. I am slightly underwhelmed by it but would suggest that is because it looks so much like a team from round 22 last year, and I was hoping for more. Having said that there are names In this side that I will accept being in our round one side, Sheldon, Stiller, McGuire. If they are still in our best 22 by the bye week though, it may not bode well...

 

[mikey127]

When I first saw our team I didn't get it but after reading Quigley's post it makes a lot more sense.

still wondering where Patful will line up tho any thoguths on thats Quigley?

 

[morsie]

Boy do we have a long way to go before we are back up there.Its great to see the young kids but it would be an interesting exercise to speculate as to how many of this lineup would get a game for the likes of Sydney let alone hawthorn or Collingwood.I reckon in our premiership years almost the whole side.

 

[LouisCK]

One question that has been floated on the Dees board regarding Merrett:

Will he really line up forward? Frawley is likely to get him if so, and should (with all respect to the Big Red Fire Engine) account for him pretty well. Won't that leave a bit of a hole in your backline? Melbourne have a terrible forward line when the ball hits the deck, but our ability in the air is very good with a lot of height and athleticism. Would have thought he'd be first picked to take either Clark, Martin or Watts?