Our Defence

[marcuz]

I love that we have a young defense week in and week out. These kids will form a cohesive unit with 50+ games under their belts. Have a look at the cats backline 10 years ago, Scarlett ,Hunt, Milburn, Harley etc. Milburn the oldest at 21/22.

nothing wrong throwing them to the wolves, id rather lose with kids who'll be good than win with blokes who will always be ordinary.

 

[saladin]

Why do people assume kids will automatically be better than players we have.

question: can i assume that you are not talking about the KP kids, but rather the half-back sized guys like slatts and dempsey? if not, NLM should not even enter the discussion.


and in any case, we have seen what the "players we have" can do, and they either haven't or can't cut the mustard. so do we play known quantities that are average at best, or throw the ball to the kids and see what they have got? Pears and Daniher were no worse in defence yesterday than mcphee. Play the future, not a failed past.

 

[yaco55]

I never said that at all, how do we know if they are no good if we dont give them game time... NatRat gives a contest but it is his decison making, not just with the ball in his hands but also when he doesnt that costs the team.

NLM has 2 big issues in his game and one is pertinent in playing defence

1) His decision making is questionable when he has ball in hands. This is not a disaster when in defence.

2) He plays short for his height and is weak in the air. The opposition drag him back to the goal square to exploit one on one opportunities.

 

[ant555]

All this dribble about stronger bodies.
Fact the most dangerous players up forward for North where Hale , Petrie and McIntosh. They where the three that at various stages looked the most dangers.

Noe Kelvin tell me again how good NLM has been when he has played as a tall defneder ?
He has been no good at all so don't offer him up as an option becasue he has already been proven as a flop when it comes to stopp KP players.

I have not asumed anything. NLM is an ordinary defender who should be delisted at the end of the year.

The next part you come up with is McVeigh player the sweeper role. Well that is ok except for one thing. McVeigh was always going to be a bit rusty in his first game for the year and his match fitness was never going allow him to fill that role yesterday.

I dont know what you are crapping on about the defence now for. It has been as obvious as black balls on a white dog that we where going to have defensive issues at various stages this year for a long while.

You keep making up some sort of theory about things that most could see was going to happen anyway and then the funny part is you like to crow about being right.
It is like making up some sort of theory that says black and red will always win at roulette when everyone already knows the obvious result.

Of course we where going to lose games this year. Our list is not that good.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

The bottom line is Ant if you pick Quinn to play AFL at this stage and overlook other guys then you are putting yourself under the microscope.

Knights is a lucky man that the media is baying after Terry's blood right now because if they'd analyse some of Knights work it is not pretty. Lloyd benched for 10 or so mins... wtf?

Picking that young a backline is madness. Picking a guy who has barely played the game is ridiculous.

To support that back line supports the tanking notion. It's a shame it's come to this and most of you now accept it.

I don't know about you but I thought our defensive unit would have been pretty good this year. I assumed Ryder would settle into CHB, Fletch and one of Pears and Daniher would play and NLM and Demspey would provide something.

I thought it was an area that we could settle and have some sort of consistency. Now it's all over the shop again and we seem to be changing tack every few weeks.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

And as for NLM being delisted well he is currently a better player than Nash, Dyson, Skipworth, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Williams, Magin, Atkinson, Monfries just to name a few.

 

[Sir James]

The bottom line is Ant if you pick Quinn to play AFL at this stage and overlook other guys then you are putting yourself under the microscope.

Knights is a lucky man that the media is baying after Terry's blood right now because if they'd analyse some of Knights work it is not pretty. Lloyd benched for 10 or so mins... wtf?

Picking that young a backline is madness. Picking a guy who has barely played the game is ridiculous.

To support that back line supports the tanking notion. It's a shame it's come to this and most of you now accept it.

I don't know about you but I thought our defensive unit would have been pretty good this year. I assumed Ryder would settle into CHB, Fletch and one of Pears and Daniher would play and NLM and Demspey would provide something.

I thought it was an area that we could settle and have some sort of consistency. Now it's all over the shop again and we seem to be changing tack every few weeks.

Totally agree

 

[Skeeta Olly]

Kelvin, you're doing more circle work than an ethnic in a VL Commodore.

We;re going around in circles, accept that we have a young and developing backline. Players are being rewarding for hard work with games, while others that don't show what is needed are forced to work harder.

If I was Houli, I'd be working hard to get my spot in that team off Quinn. Hooker is stepping up in the VFL. NLM is not good enough for the role you want him to play, simple as that.

Stop looking at the negative aspects.

 

[Skeeta Olly]

And as for NLM being delisted well he is currently a better player than Nash, Dyson, Skipworth, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Williams, Magin, Atkinson, Monfries just to name a few.

Comparing apples with oranges.

NLM - 3rd tall
Nash - Rebounding Defender (?)
Dyson - Mid
Skipworth - Mid/Fwd
Houli - Def/mid
Myers - Def/Mid
Williams - Fwd
Magin - Mid
Atkinson - Rebounding Defender
Monfires - Fwd/Mid

Your opinion is fine if you think he is a better play than the above, but there is no point in comparing them.

 

[ant555]

The bottom line is Ant if you pick Quinn to play AFL at this stage and overlook other guys then you are putting yourself under the microscope.

Quinn played on Campbell.
Campbell 4 disposals befoe elaving the ground in the last quarter with a hammy problem.
As a defender Quinn did his job.

Knights is a lucky man that the media is baying after Terry's blood right now because if they'd analyse some of Knights work it is not pretty. Lloyd benched for 10 or so mins... wtf?

I agree on both points. The media may well have been on us a bit more if Richmond and Freo where not so pathetic and i mentioned to friends i was sitting with at the game that i had no idea why they keep sending Lloyd to the bench when he is playing well.

Picking that young a backline is madness. Picking a guy who has barely played the game is ridiculous.

Yes but the problem is we don't have any older KP defenders. Who else after Fletcher has experience as a KP defender ? Only Ryder but with Laycock being injured and Bellchambers not showing enough for Bendigo where do you go with that ?

To support that back line supports the tanking notion. It's a shame it's come to this and most of you now accept it.

No it does not. As i previously said problems with Laycock and Bellchambers has forced our second best tall defender into the ruck (and one could question if Ryder could be called a genuine defender anyway )
That leaves us with Fletcher and his band of 10 gamers in Daniher ,Pears and Hurley (when back ) to pick up the talls.
The rest was made up of Dempsey , Quinn and Slattery (after an early job on harvey ) and Young who all did a good job defensively on Campbell , Thomas and Lower plus Nash.
The only change that could have been made was NLM for Quinn but as i said before the game on this issue Quinn would not cost us the game and he did not. His man got 4 touches in 3 and a 1/2 quarters.

I don't know about you but I thought our defensive unit would have been pretty good this year. I assumed Ryder would settle into CHB, Fletch and one of Pears and Daniher would play and NLM and Demspey would provide something.

I thought it was an area that we could settle and have some sort of consistency. Now it's all over the shop again and we seem to be changing tack every few weeks

Well go back and have a look at all the comments made during December and January. Everyone else was thinking that we could have problems with defence becasue Fletcher was the only really experienced defender.

I never assumed Ryder would settle down and take hold of CHB becasue i have question marks on him as a defender. I have been saying for ages he should be played forward. He has got by as a defender because of natural athletisism and his leap. He has no idea about playing close man on man and has shown no signs that the penny will drop any time soon.
He also plays with a lack of intensity which is fatal for a defender.

So far the only reason things have changed is we have had injuires so there has not been the oppertunity for us to settle into a regular back 6.

And as for NLM being delisted well he is currently a better player than Nash, Dyson, Skipworth, Houli, Jetta, Myers, Williams, Magin, Atkinson, Monfries just to name a few.

Well that is your opinion. Not sure what you base it on.
For me NLM, Nash, Dyson and Williams would be the 4 i would be letting go at the end of the year.

 

[ant555]

Totally agree

Did Quinn cost us the game. No !!!

 

[Kaiser Powser]

With a full squad we could probably afford to put McVeigh back there. But we need him at the coal face to give Jobe support ATM.

I would not be too aggressive with the changes anyway, as we need the backline to become a group and that only happens when they play games as a group.

I reckon that is a solid point.

McVeigh did not seem fully fit or inform on the weekend, perhaps a stink in the backline would be a good way to ease him back to full fitness. He is a great leader, and could take one of Collingwoods dangerous small forwards Didak or Medhurst.

 

[Kaiser Powser]

For me NLM, Nash, Dyson and Williams would be the 4 i would be letting go at the end of the year.

Totally agree with that, however if Dyson has survived this far, it is hard to see Knights delisting him now.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Did Quinn cost us the game. No !!!

How does a player cost you the game these days anyway? It's pretty much nigh on impossible to single anyone out.

The question we need to ask is "Did the selection of Quinn make our team stronger" The answer is unequivocally no.

In a tight 12 point game with not many goals I would suggest that it could have played a large bearing on the result when we put out a weakened team due to selection experimentation.

Quinn played on Campbell.
Campbell 4 disposals befoe elaving the ground in the last quarter with a hammy problem.
As a defender Quinn did his job.

Yes, but wasn't his job to provide run and carry as per what you said a few days ago. Knights game plan and all that.

Anyway I think this topic has been done to death now and Skeeta Olly says it best with "Kelvin, you're doing more circle work than an ethnic in a VL Commodore."

 

[Ben the Gooner]

To be fair though, kelvin, would you rather Darcy and Tayte (and Hurley for that matter) be thrown to the wolves this year with Fletch floating around and helping out, or next year (or 2011) when there's no Fletch to help out?

From the other thread. Thoughts kelvin?

 

[bruce29]

I like the idea of having the young backs down there with Fletch tutoring them.

My biggest concern is up forward, where we don't have enough young talent coming through under the tutelage of Lloydy and Scotty.

 

[LeeARM]

I like the idea of having the young backs down there with Fletch tutoring them.

My biggest concern is up forward, where we don't have enough young talent coming through under the tutelage of Lloydy and Scotty.

we do, it's just injured/not doing enough to get into the side.

also i agree, having our future key backs play under the guidance of fletcher should have some great long term benefits.

 

[Darealrath]

I love that we have a young defense week in and week out. These kids will form a cohesive unit with 50+ games under their belts. Have a look at the cats backline 10 years ago, Scarlett ,Hunt, Milburn, Harley etc. Milburn the oldest at 21/22.

nothing wrong throwing them to the wolves, id rather lose with kids who'll be good than win with blokes who will always be ordinary.

Completely agree. Defence definately wasn't the problem anyway.

One thing I'd like to see in the next season or two (or three) when Fletch retires is for one of McVeigh and Welsh to go back to defence to provide some generalship. Our midfield should be good enough to not need both by then.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

From the other thread. Thoughts kelvin?

I would like a balance.

Pears and Daniher have had a chance to learn of Fletch and Mal last year. They train together and should be learning all the time. Hurley is touted as a very smart footballer.

Throwing them to the wolves like we did on Saturday punishes the team and your chance of winning when you take into account the collective back 6.

If we had a strong backline, say for example we had Hardwick or Solly then throwing two kids in there might be ok. Having 4 of your back 6 inexperienced does not do your chances of winning any good.

The fact is kids develop better around stronger bodies and winning cultures. I'd rather look at winning first, developing kids second because if you get the first one right the second one will happen a lot easier.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

But who do we bring in?

NLM is the only experienced defender who isn't playing, and it's very debatable whether he offers more from a defensive point of view than Pears, whose place he would take.

It's not like Dimma or Solly are rotting at Bendigo - this is probably one player (Hurley in for Quinn, Pears to BP) away from our best backline.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

I love that we have a young defense week in and week out. These kids will form a cohesive unit with 50+ games under their belts. Have a look at the cats backline 10 years ago, Scarlett ,Hunt, Milburn, Harley etc. Milburn the oldest at 21/22.

nothing wrong throwing them to the wolves, id rather lose with kids who'll be good than win with blokes who will always be ordinary.

10 years ago the Cats backline was:

Graham, Milburn, Stoneham, Sanderson, Sholl, McGrath

Graham, McGrath, Stoneham, Sanderson, Sholl all played in 2000.

Scarlett played 1 game in his first year, 5 in his second before cementing a regular place.

Milburn was in hist 4th year by the time Scarlett cemented a place in the side.

Harley was turning 22 before he cemented his place at the Cats.

It's complete rubbish to compare them to what we are doing now.

The bolded line is surely a joke. If you actually analyse it.. it doesn't make sense. Lose with good kids but win with bad players. Hmmmm

 

[LeeARM]

The bolded line is surely a joke. If you actually analyse it.. it doesn't make sense. Lose with good kids but win with bad players. Hmmmm

well if you replace win with lose in that sentence it brings up a good point. why waste time with players who have had their chance to prove themselves yet haven't proven themselves while you can take a chance with kids with heaps of potential and try to get the most out of them? although, that question is heavily opinion based, surely you could see the point of it.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

But who do we bring in?

NLM is the only experienced defender who isn't playing, and it's very debatable whether he offers more from a defensive point of view than Pears, whose place he would take.

It's not like Dimma or Solly are rotting at Bendigo - this is probably one player (Hurley in for Quinn, Pears to BP) away from our best backline.

In terms of big men... we have no one. So we are stuck with Pears and Daniher or Hurley.

What we have to do is add a bit more steel around them. Enter NLM. Exit stage left Quinn.

Why does everyone assume NLM takes a tall?

Possibly look at McVeigh in a Hodge type role if we get our midfield going with Watson, Lonergan, Winders and Lovett.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

well if you replace win with lose in that sentence it brings up a good point. why waste time with players who have had their chance to prove themselves yet haven't proven themselves while you can take a chance with kids with heaps of potential and try to get the most out of them? although, that question is heavily opinion based, surely you could see the point of it.

The problem with the statement is that at any point in time you can make the same claims about the past few premiership sides.

Geelong a few years ago had run their race according to most and were too slow and had too many one paced mids..... well that changed quickly.

Swans were never going to win with their battlers and game style and should have played more kids..... they showed us.

We should be worried about winning the next 4 weeks rather than trying to win the premiership in 4 years.

 

[Ben the Gooner]

In terms of big men... we have no one. So we are stuck with Pears and Daniher or Hurley.

What we have to do is add a bit more steel around them. Enter NLM. Exit stage left Quinn.

Why does everyone assume NLM takes a tall?

Possibly look at McVeigh in a Hodge type role if we get our midfield going with Watson, Lonergan, Winders and Lovett.

NLM is in between a tall and a small, and would be third tall (as with Pears) in a full strength backline.

I think McVeigh could play the quarterback role very well, but I'd like to see Hurley play there when he gets back. He has the aerial ability and the footskills to play there, and can read the play as well as any kid can.

FWIW, full strength:

B: Slattery - Hurley - Pears
HB: Fletcher - Daniher - Dempsey

Pears plays on the third tall forwards, either tall or small (like Josh Smith, or Ryan Houlihan), and Fletcher plays effectively as a loose man/attacking HBF. Hurley and Daniher take the two main key forwards, Slattery takes the main small forward, and Dempsey keeps doing what he's doing.

In that back 6, you have a 5th year player with a hardened body, as big a first year player as you'll see, a 2nd year player built like a tank, a 34 year old, a skinny 2nd year player and a 4th year player.

To be honest, there's not a lot of physical ground conceded there.