Roast Our general fitness, strength and conditioning.

[eth-dog]

I've touched on this before but it's a joke. We have the most players under 80 kg on an AFL list. We regularly get beaten around the ball. Usually the trade off for being lighter is that you have a larger aerobic capacity but that doesn't seem to be true either considering we haven't really put in a 4 quarter effort this season.

BrunoV has said it so many times, it's as if since the saga we're afraid of putting muscle on players. Hell, we're afraid of putting these guys through proper conditioning! We're standing around, hoping that it'll all come through.

The average weight of our list is 83 kg. The median weight is 87 kg, which isn't too bad, but if you take out the KPP's the average drops to 81.9 kg and the median 83 kg. I was hopeful that whe we brought the Hawthorne guy in, someone who built their physical conditioning to basically the best in the league for a 5 year stretch we'd be better at this but it hasn't changed at all.

 

[Kyptastic]

In fairness, it's probably a hard thing to do in the span of one season without creating huge amounts of extra stress on bodies, leading to more injuries (As we saw in 2012 when they tried to do the same thing). Not being able to train properly hasn't helped in that regard either.

 

[11kgm]

I've touched on this before but it's a joke. We have the most players under 80 kg on an AFL list. We regularly get beaten around the ball. Usually the trade off for being lighter is that you have a larger aerobic capacity but that doesn't seem to be true either considering we haven't really put in a 4 quarter effort this season.

BrunoV has said it so many times, it's as if since the saga we're afraid of putting muscle on players. Hell, we're afraid of putting these guys through proper conditioning! We're standing around, hoping that it'll all come through.

The average weight of our list is 83 kg. The median weight is 87 kg, which isn't too bad, but if you take out the KPP's the average drops to 81.9 kg and the median 83 kg. I was hopeful that whe we brought the Hawthorne guy in, someone who built their physical conditioning to basically the best in the league for a 5 year stretch we'd be better at this but it hasn't changed at all.

Takes more then one year to change fitness, and also we had the stand down for Covid

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Fitness is as much a function of culture as it is of staff and program. If the players don't work hard enough in games what makes you think they work hard enough in training, whatever might or might not be asked of them?

 

[Schnitzengruben]

When you take out Stringer, our average weight would probably drop 3 kg's.

 

[BrunoV]

I've touched on this before but it's a joke. We have the most players under 80 kg on an AFL list. We regularly get beaten around the ball. Usually the trade off for being lighter is that you have a larger aerobic capacity but that doesn't seem to be true either considering we haven't really put in a 4 quarter effort this season.

BrunoV has said it so many times, it's as if since the saga we're afraid of putting muscle on players. Hell, we're afraid of putting these guys through proper conditioning! We're standing around, hoping that it'll all come through.

The average weight of our list is 83 kg. The median weight is 87 kg, which isn't too bad, but if you take out the KPP's the average drops to 81.9 kg and the median 83 kg. I was hopeful that whe we brought the Hawthorne guy in, someone who built their physical conditioning to basically the best in the league for a 5 year stretch we'd be better at this but it hasn't changed at all.

I'm more staggered by the lack of physical prowess of the players recruited.

We have 1 elite runner on the list. He's a key defender. The next best 5 are not best 22 players. It's not clear to me that a midfielder is top 10 in the time trials.

What GUMBLETRON has touched on above is true and work rate can be just as important as running ability.

But not at our level and certainly not given the style of game we are now trying to copy.

Even players like Tippa and Mozzie are nothing like the Richmond equivalents. Both are burst athletes not suited to burning up and down half forward and wing as their small forward counterparts as the Tigers do.

The key posts are slow (though BZT aside the future stocks look good).

Considering how light the players are the inability to cover the ground is just bizarre.

 

[eth-dog]

In fairness, it's probably a hard thing to do in the span of one season without creating huge amounts of extra stress on bodies, leading to more injuries (As we saw in 2012 when they tried to do the same thing). Not being able to train properly hasn't helped in that regard either.

Tell that to Darren Burgess who transformed Port from a below average fitness side to the best running side in the comp in one pre-season

And it would be more convincing if several of our mids hadn't lost weight (Parish, Heppell, Zaka immediately spring to mind)

 

[faible]

I'm more staggered by the lack of physical prowess of the players recruited.

We have 1 elite runner on the list. He's a key defender. The next best 5 are not best 22 players. It's not clear to me that a midfielder is top 10 in the time trials.

What GUMBLETRON has touched on above is true and work rate can be just as important as running ability.

But not at our level and certainly not given the style of game we are now trying to copy.

Even players like Tippa and Mozzie are nothing like the Richmond equivalents. Both are burst athletes not suited to burning up and down half forward and wing as their small forward counterparts as the Tigers do.

The key posts are slow (though BZT aside the future stocks look good).

Considering how light the players are the inability to cover the ground is just bizarre.

From memory Clarke & Hibberd are both strong runners, and the best of the midfielders. Which is a problem given they're depth players, and they're also not exactly peak Tom Scully level runners either.

We lack outside runners with good skills and big tanks, I think Ham will eventually become that but it's going to take a couple more pre-seasons for him to have enough weight on.

If we're aiming for a Richmond style gameplan, we don't appear to have many players with the requisite tanks for it.

 

[FlyingV]

I think there are justified concerns about the endurance and durability of the squad. Always breaking down/fatiguing badly towards the end of the season. This is a trend. If it’s not Hooker/Hurley breaking down its Daniher/Stringer. If it’s not Smith/Fantasia then it’s Heppell/Zaka. And more often then not, they all do not play together, or if they do play they play injured. We sacked Crowe, we clearly have a conditioning issue at the club in my opinion and it is killing us.

On top of that, as mentioned above, who are our big aerobic beasts that can run all day?

 

[Vander18]

I'm more staggered by the lack of physical prowess of the players recruited.

We have 1 elite runner on the list. He's a key defender. The next best 5 are not best 22 players. It's not clear to me that a midfielder is top 10 in the time trials.

What GUMBLETRON has touched on above is true and work rate can be just as important as running ability.

But not at our level and certainly not given the style of game we are now trying to copy.

Even players like Tippa and Mozzie are nothing like the Richmond equivalents. Both are burst athletes not suited to burning up and down half forward and wing as their small forward counterparts as the Tigers do.

The key posts are slow (though BZT aside the future stocks look good).

Considering how light the players are the inability to cover the ground is just bizarre.

This.

We talked about this on the back of the Harding article a while back where he said we don’t have the runners to play the way the coaches want us to.

 

[Milanista28]

Wonder what kms, repeat sprints both attacking and defencive we run compared to other sides.

 

[Yoda_]

I'm more staggered by the lack of physical prowess of the players recruited.

We have 1 elite runner on the list. He's a key defender. The next best 5 are not best 22 players. It's not clear to me that a midfielder is top 10 in the time trials.

What GUMBLETRON has touched on above is true and work rate can be just as important as running ability.

But not at our level and certainly not given the style of game we are now trying to copy.

Even players like Tippa and Mozzie are nothing like the Richmond equivalents. Both are burst athletes not suited to burning up and down half forward and wing as their small forward counterparts as the Tigers do.

The key posts are slow (though BZT aside the future stocks look good).

Considering how light the players are the inability to cover the ground is just bizarre.

Tehe, our inside midfielders (McGrath 178/83kg, Shiel 182cm/83kg, Merrett 180cm/83kg) are so far smaller than our outside midfielders (Langford 191cm/87kg, Cutler 192cm/92kg, Heppell 189cm/84kg)

Pretty much sums up how pathetic a football club we are..

That is before you address how crap we are at managing long term injuries that have continually effected players.

Daniher 13/60 games, Ambrose 35/89 games, Fantasia 80/147 games. Throw in Laverde who has never played more than 9 games in a single season (this is season 6 for Jayden). Tom Bellchambers has played double digit games in just over half his seasons (7/12) and never more than 20 in one season.

The strength and conditioning is one part but keeping out fit guys on the park is another story that needs to be told imho.


The more I think about it, the more I want Essendon to **** Jayden Laverde off this year. We are seduced far too easily by the "what if" he brings to the list. We just don't see it enough and perhaps it is time we cut our losses and make those tough calls this club doesn't have the balls to make.


Possibly opening another can of worms this post will create as the motive behind this post isn't the be all and end all, the Dogs won a flag in 2016 with a smaller midfield group, the best team in the comp at the moment have a smaller brigaide. It can be done.

 

[Yoda_]

This.

We talked about this on the back of the Harding article a while back where he said we don’t have the runners to play the way the coaches want us to.

And then the guys we do have on our list are played completely out of position. Like imagine one of our more physical yougsters is wasting away as a tagging half forward and barely getting a kick (Dyl Clarke NOT Darcy Parish) and not as a hunting midfielder?

 

[NAB777]

Weren't we about 3 years behind everyone else in moving away from altitude training?

 

[eth-dog]

Tehe, our inside midfielders (McGrath 178/83kg, Shiel 182cm/83kg, Merrett 180cm/83kg) are so far smaller than our outside midfielders (Langford 191cm/87kg, Cutler 192cm/92kg, Heppell 189cm/84kg)

Pretty much sums up how pathetic a football club we are..

That is before you address how crap we are at managing long term injuries that have continually effected players.

Daniher 13/60 games, Ambrose 35/89 games, Fantasia 80/147 games. Throw in Laverde who has never played more than 9 games in a single season (this is season 6 for Jayden). Tom Bellchambers has played double digit games in just over half his seasons (7/12) and never more than 20 in one season.

The strength and conditioning is one part but keeping out fit guys on the park is another story that needs to be told imho.


The more I think about it, the more I want Essendon to **** Jayden Laverde off this year. We are seduced far too easily by the "what if" he brings to the list. We just don't see it enough and perhaps it is time we cut our losses and make those tough calls this club doesn't have the balls to make.


Possibly opening another can of worms this post will create as the motive behind this post isn't the be all and end all, the Dogs won a flag in 2016 with a smaller midfield group, the best team in the comp at the moment have a smaller brigaide. It can be done.

Bulldogs GF midfield had Macrae (189/89), Bont (193/93), Dunkley (190/89) spending time in there, although Dunkley was mostly forward. But yeah, Libba and Dahlhaus both spent a lot of time in there.

 

[Call Me Cake]

6 months is plenty of time to see a noticeable change in lean muscle mass %.

The reason they are not guided to that is either because;

Our fitness coaches are beanpoled or don't know how to do the job they're supposed to be paid for (and why would you trust him/them?),

Or

Our nutrition experts are not being constructive/we don't have any,

Or

Our players are lazy.

Or a combination of all three.

 

[Mercurial89]

I've touched on this before but it's a joke. We have the most players under 80 kg on an AFL list. We regularly get beaten around the ball. Usually the trade off for being lighter is that you have a larger aerobic capacity but that doesn't seem to be true either considering we haven't really put in a 4 quarter effort this season.

BrunoV has said it so many times, it's as if since the saga we're afraid of putting muscle on players. Hell, we're afraid of putting these guys through proper conditioning! We're standing around, hoping that it'll all come through.

The average weight of our list is 83 kg. The median weight is 87 kg, which isn't too bad, but if you take out the KPP's the average drops to 81.9 kg and the median 83 kg. I was hopeful that whe we brought the Hawthorne guy in, someone who built their physical conditioning to basically the best in the league for a 5 year stretch we'd be better at this but it hasn't changed at all.

One thing I thought was a good illustration on the weekend was when the camera panned out and we got a good look of our midfield and a few defenders standing next to their opponents and the way the moved through traffic compared to ours. It was a stark difference. We looked tiny, we looked thin and we could not pin their arms. They invite the pressure of the tackle because they know they can break it and then we are a player down. its why they look like they constantly are outnumbering (aside from also running harder contest to contest and actually just having more numbers).

Now Geelong are a very experienced side with a good culture, they are a top team for a reason. I do not expect our players to look like they do. Especially since we have been trash as a club for two decades.

I would not put blame on the new fitness regime, they came in only recently and it takes time to change a fitness level for a group. Especially depending on the focuses of a preseason. If they were focusing on certain aspects it may not be evident straight away in the size of the list for example. You also do not need to be big to be strong as an aside.

There was an interesting article early this season where he (Sean Murphy) spoke about how we train and he noted that we train as hard as top teams but we dont train as smart. We go all out and then break down, or cant recover to then back up and train again so you dont get the cumulative benefits.

Now the age old adage of play how you train would ring pretty loudly if there is any truth to what hes saying because that is this team and has been the embodiment of this team for a number of regimes now.

We play burst football, we have for close to a decade. High octane, fast, who cares what happens next football, and its gotten us nowhere.
The team seems to constantly need motivation to play at a level. We did it during the saga, feeding off the pressure to pull out some incredible performances. We do the same when we get a big name player back like Joe, or at one stage is was Walla.
He would light up for a couple of minutes and the whole team would lift. We have said it before on here that the club feels lethargic and then will just ignite, but they need the spark, and when we harness that momentum no one can stop us. But it is not sustainable

We do the same in trade periods. head in the sand, our way, hes worth this, no in between. (comes across as arrogance, but the detail of it is this club wide epidemic of being unable to work in anything other than an extreme).

People talk about brand, if anyone wanted to know what ours is, its that. When we play that type of footy we cant be defended against. Doggies are similar.
The issues with that are;
One you can attack that way but its much harder to defend that way leading to inconsistency.
Two, the best teams in this comp (west coast, Richmond and Geelong) are experts at controlling momentum. They go when its their "turn" and then as soon as the other team, us for example, gets our go they switch automatically and suck the momentum out of the game.
Three, the physical demands of playing that way aren't sustainable in this game. Players break down and you are left with a massive injury list.

We have one speed in how we train, in how we play, in how we support as fans and how the clubs operates in the media. We do not change the script at all and do things smarter. We yo-yo between sky is falling extreme and premiership favourites extreme as fans, as a club, in the media.


This rant got off the fitness of the list. But my point is that if we train the way we have done everything else as a club. That is why we perform the way we do on the field.

 

[Vander18]

And then the guys we do have on our list are played completely out of position. Like imagine one of our more physical yougsters is wasting away as a tagging half forward and barely getting a kick (Dyl Clarke NOT Darcy Parish) and not as a hunting midfielder?

Let’s not forget Dyl is also one of the few midfielders who’s endurance running is up to scratch.

 

[Donakebab]

Bulldogs GF midfield had Macrae (189/89), Bont (193/93), Dunkley (190/89) spending time in there, although Dunkley was mostly forward. But yeah, Libba and Dahlhaus both spent a lot of time in there.

They were nowhere near that size when they won the GF though, Macrae 83kg, Bont 85kg, Dunkley 82kg.

 

[Lore]

One thing I thought was a good illustration on the weekend was when the camera panned out and we got a good look of our midfield and a few defenders standing next to their opponents and the way the moved through traffic compared to ours. It was a stark difference. We looked tiny, we looked thin and we could not pin their arms. They invite the pressure of the tackle because they know they can break it and then we are a player down. its why they look like they constantly are outnumbering (aside from also running harder contest to contest and actually just having more numbers).

Now Geelong are a very experienced side with a good culture, they are a top team for a reason. I do not expect our players to look like they do. Especially since we have been trash as a club for two decades.

I would not put blame on the new fitness regime, they came in only recently and it takes time to change a fitness level for a group. Especially depending on the focuses of a preseason. If they were focusing on certain aspects it may not be evident straight away in the size of the list for example. You also do not need to be big to be strong as an aside.

There was an interesting article early this season where he (Sean Murphy) spoke about how we train and he noted that we train as hard as top teams but we dont train as smart. We go all out and then break down, or cant recover to then back up and train again so you dont get the cumulative benefits.

Now the age old adage of play how you train would ring pretty loudly if there is any truth to what hes saying because that is this team and has been the embodiment of this team for a number of regimes now.

We play burst football, we have for close to a decade. High octane, fast, who cares what happens next football, and its gotten us nowhere.
The team seems to constantly need motivation to play at a level. We did it during the saga, feeding off the pressure to pull out some incredible performances. We do the same when we get a big name player back like Joe, or at one stage is was Walla.
He would light up for a couple of minutes and the whole team would lift. We have said it before on here that the club feels lethargic and then will just ignite, but they need the spark, and when we harness that momentum no one can stop us. But it is not sustainable

We do the same in trade periods. head in the sand, our way, hes worth this, no in between. (comes across as arrogance, but the detail of it is this club wide epidemic of being unable to work in anything other than an extreme).

People talk about brand, if anyone wanted to know what ours is, its that. When we play that type of footy we cant be defended against. Doggies are similar.
The issues with that are;
One you can attack that way but its much harder to defend that way leading to inconsistency.
Two, the best teams in this comp (west coast, Richmond and Geelong) are experts at controlling momentum. They go when its their "turn" and then as soon as the other team, us for example, gets our go they switch automatically and suck the momentum out of the game.
Three, the physical demands of playing that way aren't sustainable in this game. Players break down and you are left with a massive injury list.

We have one speed in how we train, in how we play, in how we support as fans and how the clubs operates in the media. We do not change the script at all and do things smarter. We yo-yo between sky is falling extreme and premiership favourites extreme as fans, as a club, in the media.


This rant got off the fitness of the list. But my point is that if we train the way we have done everything else as a club. That is why we perform the way we do on the field.

"There was an interesting article early this season where he (Sean Murphy) spoke about how we train and he noted that we train as hard as top teams but we dont train as smart. We go all out and then break down, or cant recover to then back up and train again so you dont get the cumulative benefits."

I'd completely forgotten he said that. Thanks for the reminder!


Overall your post makes me question even more about the impact of not being able to do full-contact training much/at all between games, and how much that is affecting us. Part of it is time to train the game plan and really bed it in, getting to know your team mates and their roles and being able to know where they'll be and when. That was one of the things that I found amazing watching Geelong, they each knew exactly where the others were on the field like they had some sort of hive mind thing going. But it's also what you're saying with mindset and attitudes, pacing themselves, how hard they go and when.


Most of the coaches and some players have experience at other clubs though, and I doubt they'd have our players training particularly differently to what they've experienced elsewhere. Like I doubt our training sessions are twice as long or twice as often or anything drastically different like that.

Another aspect of it is that the senior players used to be trusted to know how much training they needed to do to get themselves up for a game. I'm sure I heard that at one point, but it's a long time ago now. I wonder if that has changed..

 

[eth-dog]

They were nowhere near that size when they won the GF though, Macrae 83kg, Bont 85kg, Dunkley 82kg.

Bont was 86 in his first year mate. He'd have been pushing 90, Macrae would have been 86-ish too I reckon.

 

[ant555]

And then the guys we do have on our list are played completely out of position. Like imagine one of our more physical yougsters is wasting away as a tagging half forward and barely getting a kick (Dyl Clarke NOT Darcy Parish) and not as a hunting midfielder?

How good did Clarke look as a midfielder yesterday ? did not get near it. Sorry but you are hanging your hat on yet another late pick that was drafted based on he may be able to improve a flaw in his game. What we are doing with Clarke is totally irrelevant to the issues the list has. Well not totally the fact we drafted him has caused an issue. Should never have looked at a bloke who struggles to kick the ball. Lets face it we are talking about a bloke taken at pick 63. In many ways it was a better move to see what he could do as a forward as we do not need any more butchers in the midfield.

Should have taken my man form that draft in Mitch Lewis. Not a midfielder but he would have filled a hole in the forward line. And yes I can say that as he was one I mentioned before the draft.

As far as managing long term injuries go I still think you are yelling at the wrong cloud. Laverde has had a few soft tissue issues but in the last few seasons it has been impact injuries with his ankle that has been the problem. There is nothing anyone could have done about his last injury. Bellchambers has had knee soreness that has kept him out more often than not. If you look into it we actually do not have more soft tissues than any other club at various stages.

 

[ant555]

They were nowhere near that size when they won the GF though, Macrae 83kg, Bont 85kg, Dunkley 82kg.

It is not just the size but more the height. Geelong out marked our midget brigade through the middle all night. We had not chance of winning any footy in the air as their midfield was 6 or 7 cm taller than most of our blokes.

 

[Donakebab]

Bont was 86 in his first year mate. He'd have been pushing 90, Macrae would have been 86-ish too I reckon.

I got those weights from 2016 stats pages.

AFL Tables - Player Statistics - Western Bulldogs

Western Bulldogs Football Club Player List

Western Bulldogs full AFL playing list and stats.

web.archive.org

 

[Donakebab]

It is not just the size but more the height. Geelong out marked our midget brigade through the middle all night. We had not chance of winning any footy in the air as their midfield was 6 or 7 cm taller than most of our blokes.

Oh I still agree on the premise that we are too small and the height absolutely helps, but the Dogs weren't anywhere near the physical size they are now. The way they won every areal contest and just bulldozed our mids at contests this year was embarrassing.