List Mgmt. Our Trade/FA, Suburban & Country Town Thread

[Ctracks]

Given we have three train on inside mids atm I don’t think the club is a big on Finn as the talk suggests.

The SSP midfielders aren’t getting a trial only to replace Fin.

Bytel could be seen as cover for De Goey, Sullivan as cover for Mitchell. Most likely, it’s a case of next man up and perform a role outlined by the line coach.

McCreery is getting some midfield minutes in match sim too.

There are some that say Fin is slow. I haven’t seen that.

It’s been mentioned by Skipworth this week mentioned that power and pace is what they want in the midfield.

 

[Bianconeri]

The SSP midfielders aren’t getting a trial only to replace Fin.

Bytel could be seen as cover for De Goey, Sullivan as cover for Mitchell. Most likely, it’s a case of next man up and perform a role outlined by the line coach.

McCreery is getting some midfield minutes in match sim too.

There are some that say Fin is slow. I haven’t seen that.

It’s been mentioned by Skipworth this week mentioned that power and pace is what they want in the midfield.

Usually midfielders don’t have direct cover. The midfield rotation gets tweaked to accommodate the best twos player coming in. Like last year we either saw a forward coming in and Adams going to the middle or a defender coming in and Crisp spending more midfield time.

 

[Markfs]

Given we have three train on inside mids atm I don’t think the club is a big on Finn as the talk suggests.

Maybe. I know the general feeling here is that the players are robots, but I think the player group will probably feel that he has done his time in the VFL and he deserves a chance to show his skills. If one of the short-termers makes the list and gets an opportunity ahead of him, I think it sends a message....and all of that is doubly true if he had discussions about where he was at when he re-signed.

Irrespective of how these guys go over summer, they were long term failures at their last club. A month of good training shouldnt be enough to put them ahead of a player who has done what his coaches have said that he needs to do.

Of course, if someone new is ahead of him at round 1, then he may as well tell his manager to seek out a deal at another club.

 

[Markfs]

Having said what I said, Finn was recruited before the current coaching group got there and I have a feeling that they have already dispensed with a few players who were recruited pre-2021 because of derek's weird drafting criteria.

 

[Bianconeri]

Maybe. I know the general feeling here is that the players are robots, but I think the player group will probably feel that he has done his time in the VFL and he deserves a chance to show his skills. If one of the short-termers makes the list and gets an opportunity ahead of him, I think it sends a message....and all of that is doubly true if he had discussions about where he was at when he re-signed.

Irrespective of how these guys go over summer, they were long term failures at their last club. A month of good training shouldnt be enough to put them ahead of a player who has done what his coaches have said that he needs to do.

Of course, if someone new is ahead of him at round 1, then he may as well tell his manager to seek out a deal at another club.

Do you think the group are upset that Bobby, Mitchell, McStay, Markov and Frampton came and made it harder for player who’d been on the fringe for a few years to get a game?

It’s a reality most a familiar with.

Macrae re-signed in 2022. Since then he’s made one sub appearance. So either they told him he’s unlikely to feature in the side or have already lied to him.

What the other players did at their other clubs are irrelevant now. The only thing that matters is what they can offer to us and if that more than what Finn offers they be ahead regardless of how much a good boy Finn was. Markov was a long term failure at two clubs yet one summer was all he needed to put himself ahead of a fair few on the list.

The last paragraph assumes he’ll get offers. I suspect if he’s not getting a game this season the best he can hope for is to be in Bytel’s position this time next year.

 

[Markfs]

Do you think the group are upset that Bobby, Mitchell, McStay, Markov and Frampton came and made it harder for player who’d been on the fringe for a few years to get a game?

It’s a reality most a familiar with.

Macrae re-signed in 2022. Since then he’s made one sub appearance. So either they told him he’s unlikely to feature in the side or have already lied to him.

What the other players did at their other clubs are irrelevant now. The only thing that matters is what they can offer to us and if that more than what Finn offers they be ahead regardless of how much a good boy Finn was. Markov was a long term failure at two clubs yet one summer was all he needed to put himself ahead of a fair few on the list.

The last paragraph assumes he’ll get offers. I suspect if he’s not getting a game this season the best he can hope for is to be in Bytel’s position this time next year.

Bobby, McStay, Frampton had no competition for spots. Mitchell was a brownlow medalist. Markov might not have come into the side to replace Noble if Noble was 8cm taller - and brisbane had a lot of marking forwards. Noble was given a fair go at it.

There is a possibility that Finn is bypassed and they give a chance to one of the new recruits. It would make me wonder why they bothered to retain him on the list. Maybe they are too embarassed to drop a first rounder off the list without giving him a shot. They kept Will Kelly on the list because his dad was ceo, so there are reasons why things are done.

As i said, i think finn will get the first shot at the spot left by adams. Thats all I was saying. You may think otherwise.

 

[Ctracks]

Usually midfielders don’t have direct cover. The midfield rotation gets tweaked to accommodate the best twos player coming in. Like last year we either saw a forward coming in and Adams going to the middle or a defender coming in and Crisp spending more midfield time.

I would say rotations are more of a game day aspect (starting at the selection table), cover is a list aspect (depth chart).

There’s more than one FB/FF/ruck on a list.
Just as these are specialist positions (talls) so are midfield positions (rover, ruck-rover)
You can’t put a Quaynor or Crisp in the role of centre bounce/stoppage extractor.
You want them being used for their run and carry.

In the last two years, one in-game tweak has been N Daicos going forward and Crisp playing more centrally from the back of the centre square.

Would De Goey be the extractor if Mitchell and Fin are off the ground/out of the game? Who else plays that role? I think the coaches would prefer someone else in that role so De Goey can burst out of the middle. Won’t be N Daicos. Won’t be Crisp, won’t be Pendlebury.

BTW: I said could be cover. De Goey very well could be asked to go in and under if it unfolds that way in-game.

At the end of the day, we want the same thing for Collingwood in season 2024.

 

[RobJD]

Given we have three train on inside mids atm I don’t think the club is a big on Finn as the talk suggests.

Maybe Fin and the club don't see him as a pure in-side Mid (I don't - he's just as much a link/run and carry player to my eye). Possibly the club has committed to giving Fin a shot at the role that he best sees himself playing - similar to what Mcrae did for Jaics when he arrived at the club (that is, he asked Jaics what his best role was and he said wing - so he played him wing). That would make sense of the Bytel SSP trial (he's more a pure in-side player) and Sullivan and Hustwaite make sense purely from a game style perspective.

 

[Bianconeri]

Bobby, McStay, Frampton had no competition for spots. Mitchell was a brownlow medalist. Markov might not have come into the side to replace Noble if Noble was 8cm taller - and brisbane had a lot of marking forwards. Noble was given a fair go at it.

There is a possibility that Finn is bypassed and they give a chance to one of the new recruits. It would make me wonder why they bothered to retain him on the list. Maybe they are too embarassed to drop a first rounder off the list without giving him a shot. They kept Will Kelly on the list because his dad was ceo, so there are reasons why things are done.

As i said, i think finn will get the first shot at the spot left by adams. Thats all I was saying. You may think otherwise.

Bobby pushed out Ginnivan, McStay pushed Johnson, Mitchell further pushed Finn down the pecking order and and Frampton pushed your favourite Kelly down further.

On one hand you think Finn will play games this year but on the other you’re wondering why he’s on the list. He’s was contracted btw so there was little chance of him being delisted regardless.

The spot left by Adams may not even be taken mid as he spent a fair chunk of time up forward. Finn may make it or he may not, I doubt he’s gonna get the free ride many on here seem to think. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Bianconeri]

I would say rotations are more of a game day aspect (starting at the selection table), cover is a list aspect (depth chart).

There’s more than one FB/FF/ruck on a list.
Just as these are specialist positions (talls) so are midfield positions (rover, ruck-rover)
You can’t put a Quaynor or Crisp in the role of centre bounce/stoppage extractor.
You want them being used for their run and carry.

In the last two years, one in-game tweak has been N Daicos going forward and Crisp playing more centrally from the back of the centre square.

Would De Goey be the extractor if Mitchell and Fin are off the ground/out of the game? Who else plays that role? I think the coaches would prefer someone else in that role so De Goey can burst out of the middle. Won’t be N Daicos. Won’t be Crisp, won’t be Pendlebury.

BTW: I said could be cover. De Goey very well could be asked to go in and under if it unfolds that way in-game.

At the end of the day, we want the same thing for Collingwood in season 2024.

Our list managements supports our game day rotations not arbitrary cover. Atm our mid cover comes from players already in the side not the VFL. With Adams gone that might change but we won’t have specific VFL mids as cover for specific AFL mids. Whoever the best VFL mid will come in and the rotation will be restructured accordingly.

N Daicos was the extractor when the GF was on the line btw.

 

[Bianconeri]

Maybe Fin and the club don't see him as a pure in-side Mid (I don't - he's just as much a link/run and carry player to my eye). Possibly the club has committed to giving Fin a shot at the role that he best sees himself playing - similar to what Mcrae did for Jaics when he arrived at the club (that is, he asked Jaics what his best role was and he said wing - so he played him wing). That would make sense of the Bytel SSP trial (he's more a pure in-side player) and Sullivan and Hustwaite make sense purely from a game style perspective.

I don’t see Fin as a pure inside mid either but it’s what the club played him as for the last two seasons.

For his sake I hope that’s changed this season but I haven’t seen any indication in the pre season it has.

 

[Markfs]

Bobby pushed out Ginnivan, McStay pushed Johnson, Mitchell further pushed Finn down the pecking order and and Frampton pushed your favourite Kelly down further.

On one hand you think Finn will play games this year but on the other you’re wondering why he’s on the list. He’s was contracted btw so there was little chance of him being delisted regardless.

The spot left by Adams may not even be taken mid as he spent a fair chunk of time up forward. Finn may make it or he may not, I doubt he’s gonna get the free ride many on here seem to think. That’s all I’m saying.

well thats fair enough....now go and have a coffee at your dad's place..

and i'll try to think up something else that you can get upset about...

 

[Ctracks]

Our list managements supports our game day rotations not arbitrary cover. Atm our mid cover comes from players already in the side not the VFL. With Adams gone that might change but we won’t have specific VFL mids as cover for specific AFL mids. Whoever the best VFL mid will come in and the rotation will be restructured accordingly.

N Daicos was the extractor when the GF was on the line btw.

In my opinion, list management decisions are based on both rotations and cover as needed. I imagine the coaches are flexible in this though.

The reason I say this, is that Frampton came into the grand final team taking McStays place in the forward 50. They didn’t simply rotate the forwards that were already in the preliminary final team. (Horses for courses).
Above all else, I would say that the coaches would consider it on a match by match basis (opponent match up).
A decision was made to have two tall forwards occupy Harris Andrews and the other tall defender. Call it team structure - as it often is.
The in-game rotation may have seen either Miocek or Frampton, or both, push up - dragging the tall defenders with them and having a more open forward line with Elliott or Hill out of the goal square (just my suggestion as to a possible rotation/strategy) - on the basis that Elliott and Hill would be too quick if any of the key defenders stayed deep.

In regards to midfield players in the VFL, they (particularly Fin) didn’t get a look in because the AFL team was hard to crack.
Ed Allen wasn’t ready. IMHO, it was only Fin vying for an AFL inclusion.

Cover doesn’t mean like for like.
Frampton doesn’t = McStay.

I don’t see it as a VFL player comes into the team. It’s an AFL listed player that comes into the team. They’re there to play in the AFL when ready/required. “Next man up”

It would be interesting to see how many times N Daicos was in at centre bounces without Mitchell or Adams last year.
I think it says more about N Daicos v Mitchell in terms of how aggressive they can attack and who is more skilful and a better finisher.
* N Daicos would get the centre bounce over Fin in the same scenario, most likely over a lot of players.

To reiterate, my main point is that list management decisions are made on more than just rotations. You can’t go without someone else who can play ruck, FF, CHB, on ball on the list an entire year.
Rotations are a thing as is list (positional) depth.

2024 is now or never for Fin.

 

[Markfs]

i think that post was too complicated for biancobaby to get upset about .... but you never know

 

[Ctracks]

i think that post was too complicated for biancobaby to get upset about .... but you never know

It’s all good on my end.
Can’t help how we see things.
There may well be a difference of opinion here, but the desire is the same.
Collingwood success in 2024, abject misery and saltiness from the other 17 teams flog supporters.

 

[Apex36]

Given we have three train on inside mids atm I don’t think the club is a big on Finn as the talk suggests.

I don’t see it as a reflection specifically on Fin as it is on how the club sees our overall depth in the position. Specifically, if Mitchell goes down, we have Fin, and then who? Carmichael? I think it’s perfectly understandable that our list management think we need one or two more options there.

 

[TakingThePies]

Given we have three train on inside mids atm I don’t think the club is a big on Finn as the talk suggests.

Yeah, wrong.

Outside of Fin there really isn't any inside mids coming through. We need depth and we lost Adams.

 

[TakingThePies]

I don’t see Fin as a pure inside mid either but it’s what the club played him as for the last two seasons.

For his sake I hope that’s changed this season but I haven’t seen any indication in the pre season it has.

Lol. He's been training in the 1# team inside mid and on the wing.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Usually midfielders don’t have direct cover. The midfield rotation gets tweaked to accommodate the best twos player coming in. Like last year we either saw a forward coming in and Adams going to the middle or a defender coming in and Crisp spending more midfield time.

You could equally argue that Adams and Crisp are midfielders (direct cover) who played out of position until necessity dictated their move into the guts.

 

[TW Sherrin]

Adams left because he couldn't get midfield minutes but these SSP's guy will?

Not likely unless there are 8 guys out.

 

[Apex36]

Adams left because he couldn't get midfield minutes but these SSP's guy will?

Not likely unless there are 8 guys out.

You’re missing the point. Mature SSP guys are recruited specifically as useful depth, not best 23 players. If they work their way in to the senior team like Markov did then bonus, but that’s an odds against bet.

 

[manicpie]

Adams left because he couldn't get midfield minutes but these SSP's guy will?

Not likely unless there are 8 guys out.

It's just list management. You replace a mature aged player with a similar mature age player who is younger. Helps keep the window open and adds depth, which would be the main reason for adding one

 

[Bianconeri]

I don’t see it as a reflection specifically on Fin as it is on how the club sees our overall depth in the position. Specifically, if Mitchell goes down, we have Fin, and then who? Carmichael? I think it’s perfectly understandable that our list management think we need one or two more options there.

How many more names do we need? Last season our VFL inside mids amassed total of two sub appearances. This

It may be having nothing to with Finn and the club wanting to add more depth regardless but I still think if the club rated Finn as the ready to come in inside mid they’d have went to the draft for an inside mid.

 

[Bianconeri]

You could equally argue that Adams and Crisp are midfielders (direct cover) who played out of position until necessity dictated their move into the guts.

Yes, which was essentially argued in the latter part of that post.

 

[Apex36]

How many more names do we need? Last season our VFL inside mids amassed total of two sub appearances. This

That’s because if Mitchell wasn’t playing, Adams was the first choice replacement and if Adams wasn’t playing a forward was selected. We don’t have that luxury anymore

It may be having nothing to with Finn and the club wanting to add more depth regardless but I still think if the club rated Finn as the ready to come in inside mid they’d have went to the draft for an inside mid.

Why do you think that our recruiting department would change their philosophy of the past 20 years which is drafting best available, to drafting for needs? That makes no sense.