Outlook Rocky: he likes an expensive Tawny

[Gadzorks]

I'm happy to wish Tom well and wish him all the best. For both his own benefit and the clubs he was a reborn player this year. It's great he gets to part ways with the club on a far better note this year than he would have last. He regained my respect for his turnaround.

But it's time we leveled the ship up a bit. We need to sort out our pay scales. For all those saying Rocky has been screwed over I'm pretty damn certain he's been more than well compensated during his time here if compared to what he would have got at a Hawthorn or Geelong in a team full of stars. We've over paid players for years. A fair amount still are.

No, we're not a destination club. Probably never will be. What we were though until this year was a fiscally broken and structurally fractured organisation. We've had periods where the players had excessive control - Rocky included, and footy departments unable to navigate any sort of course for the future because of it. We were under resourced and doomed to continue down the same path that we've trodden for a decade.

Theres finally a plan and a direction that everyone at the club seems to agree on. Everyone has a purpose and a role. The players seem to be treated with courtesy and respect and seemingly by and large, going by the number of resignings, trust the system and methodology.

Rocky's situation is symptomatic of the change thats taken place. He was always going to be a difficult case. An ex captain who would have been on a very good wicket for a very long time, finding himself fronting the negotiating table with a few blots on his copy book, and a body that's starting to fail him. Despite all those saying he was one of our best, our midfield results speak for themselves - something isn't just quite right. Add to that the rumours of his gunning for Voss, his alleged run ins with the GH5, the re-visitation of coach issues with Leppa. Was he really the "loyal" clubman some want to believe? Or was he happy being a big fish in a little pond? Trouble seems to have followed Tom a little...

So, the club faced with all that makes an offer that from all accounts is sensible and logical. It's hard to make an argument against something that actually seems like a fair offer. Clearly others think he's worth more - and maybe Port think he'll help with their window - fair enough. But he won't with ours. And that's why our offer makes sense, and maybe so does theirs.

We are in for a bumpy road still. We would have been had Rocky stayed. But personally I'm happy for that road to be taken with players who to me at least, fit far better into the role of a championship team, and are buying into this new direction without reservation.

I find the whole gunning for voss strange. If there was bad blood I can't see why rocky would be going there and alternatively why they would want him. They have voss, he isn't going anywhere so they would definately have sought his input before making a play. And just like every club they want input not just on playing but also the impact of his personality on the plaguing group and dare I say it culture.

Seems to me that maybe the rumours might have less weight than we here at bf gave them. Or more correctly, the rumours we created. We do do that a bit.

 

[notliondown]

I find the whole gunning for voss strange. If there was bad blood I can't see why rocky would be going there and alternatively why they would want him. They have voss, he isn't going anywhere so they would definately have sought his input before making a play. And just like every club they want input not just on playing but also the impact of his personality on the plaguing group and dare I say it culture.

Seems to me that maybe the rumours might have less weight than we here at bf gave them. Or more correctly, the rumours we created. We do do that a bit.

The story at the time was very strong about player disgruntlement. And it was lead by the captain from all accounts.

The question is how much say does Voss now actually have? And wouldn't you hope that after 4 years you'd back yourself to manage the situation? I suggest both are now probably different people. If Port genuinely believe they are 1 or 2 trades from the big show then Voss's opinion would be duly noted and little else. Don't forget Polec walked out on Voss...

 

[Milk Steak]

Geez it's tense scenes down at the Gabba at the moment

 

[James North]

The Lions know him best and I’d back the club to know what he’s worth.

I don’t care if he tears it up in another jumper, just whether we improve next year.

One man won’t influence that a whole lot.

 

[lioninthesand]

I dont think we will have a ready made replacement come in but have younger players roll through there getting games into them.With the plan to play finals in 2020 with Berry Matho Witherden and high draft picks this year and next beside Beams Zorko.

Hmmm risky business running a midfield that lop sided age wise lacking that much class and maturity. Rockcliff is a dam fine player when fully fit, gives Beams an enourmous chop out.

 

[royboys4eva]

Big big risk letting Rocky go. God help us if Beams or Zorko go down for the season, When your down the bottom and 90% of the team are kids you really need to be sure letting a guy with Rock's experience go is a wise move.

I get the feeling more than anything they let him go for a couple reasons - save some money for the rising stars coming through in next few years ( if they decide to stay) and I think Fagan was concerned about Rocky two way running. We all know he has no pace but he has football smarts and not many players do. Having a forward line in a couple years of Hippy Rocky Shak Taylor McCluggae would have been fantastic.

Very sad to see Tom go but I wish him well and thank him for his efforts in trying times at the Lions.

 

[T Rick]

I'm happy to wish Tom well and wish him all the best. For both his own benefit and the clubs he was a reborn player this year. It's great he gets to part ways with the club on a far better note this year than he would have last. He regained my respect for his turnaround.

But it's time we leveled the ship up a bit. We need to sort out our pay scales. For all those saying Rocky has been screwed over I'm pretty damn certain he's been more than well compensated during his time here if compared to what he would have got at a Hawthorn or Geelong in a team full of stars. We've over paid players for years. A fair amount still are.

No, we're not a destination club. Probably never will be. What we were though until this year was a fiscally broken and structurally fractured organisation. We've had periods where the players had excessive control - Rocky included, and footy departments unable to navigate any sort of course for the future because of it. We were under resourced and doomed to continue down the same path that we've trodden for a decade.

Theres finally a plan and a direction that everyone at the club seems to agree on. Everyone has a purpose and a role. The players seem to be treated with courtesy and respect and seemingly by and large, going by the number of resignings, trust the system and methodology.

Rocky's situation is symptomatic of the change thats taken place. He was always going to be a difficult case. An ex captain who would have been on a very good wicket for a very long time, finding himself fronting the negotiating table with a few blots on his copy book, and a body that's starting to fail him. Despite all those saying he was one of our best, our midfield results speak for themselves - something isn't just quite right. Add to that the rumours of his gunning for Voss, his alleged run ins with the GH5, the re-visitation of coach issues with Leppa. Was he really the "loyal" clubman some want to believe? Or was he happy being a big fish in a little pond? Trouble seems to have followed Tom a little...

So, the club faced with all that makes an offer that from all accounts is sensible and logical. It's hard to make an argument against something that actually seems like a fair offer. Clearly others think he's worth more - and maybe Port think he'll help with their window - fair enough. But he won't with ours. And that's why our offer makes sense, and maybe so does theirs.

We are in for a bumpy road still. We would have been had Rocky stayed. But personally I'm happy for that road to be taken with players who to me at least, fit far better into the role of a championship team, and are buying into this new direction without reservation.

Wonderful post Notliondown

 

[Keays2myBeamas]

The nature of the salary cap is a funny thing. It tends to play out a bit like the prisoner's dilemma, but the mandatory minimum makes things more interesting. Think of "betray" = seek a big pay rise, and "remain silent" = accept less money.



Players often, in the hope that the other players in their team opt to accept less money, look for the golden goose - money and success (set free from prison).
As it often turns out, other players aren't accepting less, so you wind up with everyone overpaid and no success (2 years in prison).

The best clubs are obviously built on all players accepting less (1 year in prison). It's risky if you're a player, because your teammates might not accept less, and you end up with less money AND no success (3 years in prison), but it's the best chance of a premiership if that's what you're after.

For older players negotiating new contracts with a club with no success, the club will always be at the mercy of the player - they will leave for either money or success if they are not overpaid, they're not going to accept 3 years in prison (Assuming the older player doesn't think the club is suddenly going to skyrocket up the ladder before they retire). So if you (the club) make a stand and say we're not going to overpay you, rationally they will leave. So what happens when you let that scenario play out over a few years? Ironically, with a salary cap with a mandatory minimum, enough older high calibre players will leave (only needs to be 2 or 3) that you end up overpaying everyone else, because you have to meet the mandatory minimum, even though it goes against the stand you made to the players who left!

So how do you break the cycle if you're a club down the bottom? Well the best strategy is trying to get all the younger players "buy in" to the idea of success in the long term future if they choose to stay and accept less (the successful club 1 year in prison option). Then to reach the mandatory minimum you should overpay the older players that won't be around come the next period of success. (The older players can't buy in to success, as they won't be around, so all you can offer them is overpaying them). Then as the older players retire, ample space is opened up in the cap to allow the younger players to fill into as they become older and better players, and leaves you room to go after free agents as you enter the premiership window.

Considering we're not entering the premiership window yet and there are no big money free agents heading our way, by not choosing to overpay Rockliff, we haven't eradicated overpaying players at all. We are down the bottom, so most of our players are still overpaid, we are just choosing to overpay younger players instead (i.e. Charlie Cameron + other recent recruits, McStay, Cutler, Schache). This leaves us continuing down a never-ending cycle of overpaying players to get them to come/stay, and the club not experiencing success because the players are overpaid. By overpaying the older players instead of the younger ones during a period of no success, and selling the younger players the idea of the 1 year in prison option if everyone buys in, it may be possible to break the cycle.

Tl;dr We should match the offer, and overpay Rockliff even if he is old and banged up.

 

[3KZ is Football]

The Lions know him best and I’d back the club to know what he’s worth.

I don’t care if he tears it up in another jumper, just whether we improve next year.

One man won’t influence that a whole lot.

This is the exact attitude people should be adopting. Well put young James.
Also based on what I am reading in the press:
Charlie Cameron - IN
Tom Rockliff - OUT
Would see us much better off. Different sort of player but much more damaging and just the sort of player we need in our forward line. The Club says it is looking for a replacement for Rockliff, but I would argue we could pursue both, while recognising that we can cover Rockliff with existing players.

 

[JohnHinckleyJr]

This is the exact attitude people should be adopting. Well put young James.
Also based on what I am reading in the press:
Charlie Cameron - IN
Tom Rockliff - OUT
WOULD SEE US MUCH BETTER OFF!

Yes please acquire cameron

 

[Billy Puller]

We're gonna have to pay Hipwood a billion dollars gotta make room somehow

 

[Skoob]

Wow, this thread has ticked over quickly.
On "overpaying"; There is overpaying, and there is overpaying. It is funny that some people are actually wondering if Noble is aware that we might have to pay a bit more in QLD to keep players. These guys (Fagan, Noble, Swann,) are some of the best footy people in the country. Do you honestly think they don't know what's what? They have acknowledged in the past, that up here, we have to pay about 10% more than Melbourne clubs. They are aware. By definition that could be considered overpaying, but if normal rates + 10% is acknowledged as necessary for some, then it is the right price. When it is said that we won't/can't continue to overpay, it means we won't be paying $800k to someone who realistically is worth $500K as has happened in recent times. We are not talking about an extra 50-100K for playing in QLD.

 

[Skoob]

The other theme I don't get, is the calls of "poor form from the club". You don't know what extra, they would have to pay to keep Tom, nor whether they want to. I get a lot of people think they should, but without half the information the club has.
What puzzles me is how people consider this the club's responsibility. Tom is an RFA, and he has put himself on the market, and found a suitor. There are 2 likely reasons for this;

1. He has told the club he wants to explore the market because he is genuinely wanting to play elsewhere, or
2. He has told the club he wants to explore the market in an attempt to force the club's offer up.

In which of those scenarios is it not okay for the club to say "Okay"? A senior player has actually said "I wouldn't mind playing for someone else" and people are angry at the club for letting him?
I believe whatever the club offered him was either fair, or if you want to believe they "lowballed" him, then you should ponder why. Either Tom wants out, or the club is happy for him to go. Or both. These situations don't come about because some of the best football people in the country don't understand what they're doing. Tom wants to play somewhere else. Let him. Port have over-committed IMO if the guesses of $700K+ for 4 years are accurate.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Wow, this thread has ticked over quickly.
On "overpaying"; There is overpaying, and there is overpaying. It is funny that some people are actually wondering if Noble is aware that we might have to pay a bit more in QLD to keep players. These guys (Fagan, Noble, Swann,) are some of the best footy people in the country. Do you honestly think they don't know what's what? They have acknowledged in the past, that up here, we have to pay about 10% more than Melbourne clubs. They are aware. By definition that could be considered overpaying, but if normal rates + 10% is acknowledged as necessary for some, then it is the right price. When it is said that we won't/can't continue to overpay, it means we won't be paying $800k to someone who realistically is worth $500K as has happened in recent times. We are not talking about an extra 50-100K for playing in QLD.

Well put Skoob. Drafting Queenslanders is going to help a bit in terms of paying what is effectively a "living and working away from home allowance," but the reality is we are always going to need build a relocation premium into the contracts of recently drafted players who have changed States to play for us. The practise is a common one in the public service and corporate world and there is no reason it would not apply equally in the commercial world of football.

 

[Tim F]

Zorko is on a 4 year deAl worth 500k per season do you really think we should be paying Rockliff 700 k plus ? no way . He has been well compensated in the past but his lack of hurt factor , recent injuries means that lions are Obviously warry. If you add Robinson and Christensen rotating into that midfield that helps cover the loss someone plus all the improvements in the young players . If lions could add someone like a James worpel in draft with that pick 19 who has the body of a man and is a contested ball winner it would be ideal.

 

[neg99]

All this talk of doom and gloom about the midfield getting younger is totally overblown from my perspective. The most recent example of this happening is Essendon last year. They lost oodles of experience, yes got hammered on the park this year but unequivocally set themselves up for the future:

Zach Merrett - Within the space of 12 months given more responsibility turned into one of the elite midfielders in the comp

Orazio Fantasia - Turned himself from that X-factor impact a game one in every 10 players to an elite half-forward rotating through the wing/midfield

Darcy Parish - Drafted and instantly impacted with the responsibility of leading the clearances alongside Zac M

James Kelly - Arrived and gave the backline leadership and a sense of purpose. His impact will be felt long after he’s gone after driving standards and demonstrating what success looks like to the young back group (sound familiar?)

Then 2017 rolls around, they get back the players, most of the old blokes were pretty cooked and didn’t offer a lot (i.e. Watson, Stanton), Heppell added immediate class and composure to the midfield and further impact from 2016 draftees has pushed them into the 8. They have a long way to go for a premiership but the blueprint is there.

For us I see a tough year next year as we get younger but our existing brigade between recent draftees, Bastinac (similiar to Zaharakis), M Rob and obviously the Danes are a stronger group than Essendon of 2016. We have way more young talent in the backline and forward line and a bonanza draft coming.

Next year if we can add 1 A grade midfielder and 1 or 2 established experienced players I can see us going through a similar curve (with the ability for more sustained success as our youth are stronger than the Bombers in my opinion).

Long story short, not all doom and gloom here and hopeful we look back on this as the making of our next gen midfield.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[John_Proctor]

This is the exact attitude people should be adopting. Well put young James.
Also based on what I am reading in the press:
Charlie Cameron - IN
Tom Rockliff - OUT
Would see us much better off. Different sort of player but much more damaging and just the sort of player we need in our forward line. The Club says it is looking for a replacement for Rockliff, but I would argue we could pursue both, while recognising that we can cover Rockliff with existing players.

agree with this. while I probably wouldn't trade Rockliff straight up for Cameron it isn't far from a fair trade

So assuming Rocky for compensation @ 18 and 18 for Cameron happens. Reality is we'll get more value out of a 23yo than a 27yo over the next 10 years including being more likely to be around next time we are a true contender.

Also think with Beams, Zorko leading the midfield, Rich available to rotate through their more regularly than he did this year, Robinson and Christensen back from injury and potentially Hodge as a rotation option we aren't short of experience to run through the middle.

 

[chopperduck]

I think a player like LDU would come in next year and have a bit of an impact. Bundy and Robbo will have massive impact after missing large parts of the season. Cameron if it happens will also have a massive impact. The impact of these players will more than compensate for the loss of Rocky. The game where Rocky did his shoulder early Matho went into the middle to cover his role and our midfield barely missed a beat.

I'm not down playing Rocky as a player, he has his limitations, but he is someone who has got the very best out of himself despite those limitations to his game. He is slow, doesn't get back and defender very well, is limited with his skills and has a kicking range of about 40m. Despite that, he is an inside beast, has good vision and decision making and always works hard to provide an option, despite his limits in covering the ground.

Zorko went past Rocky this year, no doubt about it. Robbo/Basti easily fill in for Rocky as experienced players in the midfield, Beams and Zorko are our blue chip players now. I'd like to see the likes of Matho/Clug/Berry continue to get some midfield time though. We have some very talented players on our list, and i think we are on the cusp of 1 or 2 of them really arriving next year.

 

[winged1]

I think a player like LDU would come in next year and have a bit of an impact. Bundy and Robbo will have massive impact after missing large parts of the season. Cameron if it happens will also have a massive impact. The impact of these players will more than compensate for the loss of Rocky. The game where Rocky did his shoulder early Matho went into the middle to cover his role and our midfield barely missed a beat.

I'm not down playing Rocky as a player, he has his limitations, but he is someone who has got the very best out of himself despite those limitations to his game. He is slow, doesn't get back and defender very well, is limited with his skills and has a kicking range of about 40m. Despite that, he is an inside beast, has good vision and decision making and always works hard to provide an option, despite his limits in covering the ground.

Zorko went past Rocky this year, no doubt about it. Robbo/Basti easily fill in for Rocky as experienced players in the midfield, Beams and Zorko are our blue chip players now. I'd like to see the likes of Matho/Clug/Berry continue to get some midfield time though. We have some very talented players on our list, and i think we are on the cusp of 1 or 2 of them really arriving next year.

Berry will be a beast, the big bodied mid we have needed for a while. Cripps like but more mobile.

 

[Sam93]

Any truth to this?

 

[winged1]

View attachment 424204

Any truth to this?

Isnt that draft tampering?

 

[Billy Puller]

Bi

Isnt that draft tampering?

Bit of i scratch your back we'll scratch yours

 

[winged1]

Bi

Bit of i scratch your back we'll scratch yours

Carlton would be spewing. . . ..BONUS!!!!

 

[lioninthesand]

'We have had a contract on the table for sometime now and that is our offer, Tom is exploring his options' is a lot different to 'We are absolutely desperate to keep Tom, he is a leader and Club best and Fairest, we hope he stays and we are working with his manager to make Tom an offer that will mean he recommits to us".

I am fine with the decision and I agree that we need to back in our administration - by the same token, I think it is safe to assume we haven't done everything we can to keep Tom, for reasons mentioned.

There are some people who 'love' Tom and others who who are 'what ever' about him, those saying emotional things about his departure and entitled to feel angry or that the club have 'let him walk' (if that is their perception) there is no point trying to persuade them to be rational about his departure.. the same as as people weren't being rational with Leppas departure saying things like 'A new coach will make zero difference at the club' etc.

Heart and soul Guys leaving will always cause frustration and emotion, no point trying to control peoples narrative, especially when there is divided opinion on this.

I am personally shattered about Rocky and feel like we could have offered another year or paid a little bit over, because I think we need him in our mid field and I believe he bleeds for the club, those Guys are once in a generation type (ala Brown) - at the same time, ill get over it and we have to trust the reason the Club has decided not to match is a fair and reasonable one.

 

[Kernel Kurtz]

Bit disappointed as we seem to land a good player and loose one.
But onwards and upwards from here, sounds like both parties the club and Rocky get new opportunities in new directions.
We'll miss his leadership on field , but as some say there are positives there as well, number 1 being a new mix of players in the middle. Looking the goods with Berry in there and Cluggs to break out next year.
Proud to cheer Rocky as I only really started supporting the Lions in 2010 , we all watched the 3 R's get to that 50 game stage and more.
Bit of an end of an era as these boys were marketed to be the new prime movers.
No need for blame games imo , just hope we get a gun in return .
High five Rocky, thanks for your memories as a Lion.