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Ovens & Murray discussion 2023

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Long time reader, first time posting.

So Wangaratta have been caught over the salary cap in 2022.
They have retained their entire list all bar Ankers (at this stage). But have added atleast 4/5 players

So to me, this means they are going to be over the Salary Cap again in 2023?
I cannot for the life of me understand how they aren’t starting the 2023 season under more pressure with their cap.
 

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10571z said:
Anyone who believes this was an innocent mistake I truely feel for you.

A clear and obvious breach that should have resulted in the premiership cup removed.

A 2 year old can keep track of a salary cap.

A basic excel spread sheet not to mention a treasurer with a functional brain can easily keep track of “outgoings” in player payments.
Click to expand...
They must have seen my post.

Anyway I’ve heard it was way way way above the 28k…

Suck crap is all I say.
 
Peta Deutschland said:
My point is, what is the league doing to stop clubs rorting the system? Make an example of Wang, sure. Doesn’t change a thing.
They need to pro active about stopping it


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Click to expand...
I understand that you have been caught out Peta and naturally you want to drag every other club down with you, but how do you suggest the league actually police’s this issue, please be realistic. Coming from a proud Yarra fan that feels very dirty about the 3 point loss we suffered last year in the decider . I wonder if the result would have been different if wang had kept their books in check.
 
Makita Rabbit said:
Now peta, does this mean Callum Moore will have to return his vehicle that was given to him for the past 2 years ?

Don’t even get me started at the ridiculous incentives that were handed out in the 2017 premiership
Click to expand...

This is the point I’ve been trying to make in previous comments. You could go through every premiership side for the last 20 years and there would be a plethora of rumours about property received, cars, boats, debts paid all types of sh1te. We’ve all heard them all!
What has been done about it from the O&M? Anything?
If, Yarra do go on and win the flag, which I think they now have no challenger. Are all these same people currently potting Wang for their breach (an administrative error that was self reported, not caught cheating) are all going to say well done Yarra, the way they have got players like Gibbons, Masters, Williams, Whiley, Wheeler x2 , Fothergil and Howe to all sacrifice and commit to the cause, playing unders to travel (most) to play at such a great club. Well done, that’s how it’s done (side note, I actually think Yarra are a fantastic football and netball club)
Or do we rinse and repeat and start saying how does that fit under the cap? The rumours all start again?
I say forget the cap, make the points cap, 36, like Wang has received as a punishment this season and force clubs to focus on recruiting people from their own club and play its juniors.
Feel free to pot Wang 2017, only two in that side aren’t Wangaratta natives. One of those two had already played 100 games at the club. That, in fact, is how it should be done.


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Peta Deutschland said:
This is the point I’ve been trying to make in previous comments. You could go through every premiership side for the last 20 years and there would be a plethora of rumours about property received, cars, boats, debts paid all types of sh1te. We’ve all heard them all!
What has been done about it from the O&M? Anything?
If, Yarra do go on and win the flag, which I think they now have no challenger. Are all these same people currently potting Wang for their breach (an administrative error that was self reported, not caught cheating) are all going to say well done Yarra, the way they have got players like Gibbons, Masters, Williams, Whiley, Wheeler x2 , Fothergil and Howe to all sacrifice and commit to the cause, playing unders to travel (most) to play at such a great club. Well done, that’s how it’s done (side note, I actually think Yarra are a fantastic football and netball club)
Or do we rinse and repeat and start saying how does that fit under the cap? The rumours all start again?
I say forget the cap, make the points cap, 36, like Wang has received as a punishment this season and force clubs to focus on recruiting people from their own club and play its juniors.
Feel free to pot Wang 2017, only two in that side aren’t Wangaratta natives. One of those two had already played 100 games at the club. That, in fact, is how it should be done.


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Click to expand...
Forget the Cap?!? Are you living in LaLa land?!! How are small community clubs like North, Myrt Rovers and C/Rutherglen supposed to compete with the cashed up clubs like Albury and the Maggies?? Ridiculous comment.
 
Makita Rabbit said:
Forget the Cap?!? Are you living in LaLa land?!! How are small community clubs like North, Myrt Rovers and C/Rutherglen supposed to compete with the cashed up clubs like Albury and the Maggies?? Ridiculous comment.
Click to expand...
This post is the most laughable comment i've seen since our dear Tennis Fan was given the chop. Myrt had one of their own players saying they were rorting the system. Anyone within a 250km radius of Wangaratta know that the rovers are doing the same thing. Unfortunately in sports there are wealthy clubs and there are poor clubs. It's sadly the way it goes... Some clubs struggle to find the 125k each year.
 
Makita Rabbit said:
Forget the Cap?!? Are you living in LaLa land?!! How are small community clubs like North, Myrt Rovers and C/Rutherglen supposed to compete with the cashed up clubs like Albury and the Maggies?? Ridiculous comment.
Click to expand...

Clubs like Corowa, Raiders, North Albury would be given extra player points to help attract more talent into the group. They would also be forced to focus on retaining junior talent in their side which would give them a better chance at sustained success.
Would you rather the cap be $70k? Plus less points? What’s your solution? Seems you are only reactive to the problem. Are you a board member at the O&M?


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Peta Deutschland said:
My point is, what is the league doing to stop clubs rorting the system? Make an example of Wang, sure. Doesn’t change a thing.
They need to pro active about stopping it


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Click to expand...
That's what some people say when they've been picked up for speeding. "Why are you picking on me when all these other people are speeding".
 

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Go Yarra, but do you think their guys would be there if not for Betr, Bank of Mulquiney, Bank of Smith or Bank of Kennedy, or blocks in Silverwoods or Glanmire. They followed the lead of 35 Joss utes at Albury training on a Thursday night. These clubs are probably under the cap because they are getting paid overs in their employment! What is the real salary cap? Love to think there would be a vanilla competition but won't happen in my lifetime.
 
MortlockWatcher said:
The cap is only there in theory, Makita Rabbit.

To think every club is under the cap every season is delusional.
Click to expand...

Most people say this but it's not actually true. Of course the system is not 100% watertight, and at local level it never will be.

But it is not the free-for-all that some think it still is. If it was then no club would ever be caught... and they have been, including this time.

Bigger leagues particularly do have measures in place. They have full access to club financial statements every year. They have contracts signed by every player and club. The club president and treasurer - who at a big club are generally people with some sort of considerable business and/or community profile outside of football - have to sign stat decs certifying that the player payment records are complete and accurate.

Yes, to some it'll mean nothing, but that's a big risk to your reputation. I wouldn't do it, personally.

And if the league is properly set up with access to financials, it's certainly not straightforward to just pay what you like. It stands out like dogs balls pretty quickly if it's a considerable sum of money.

So you have the third party deals... that's basically impossible to police, even the AFL can't do it. If clubs are lucky enough to have benefactors who will just hand over cash for nothing in return to pay players, well again, there's not a lot you can do. But that doesn't mean the stuff you can control shouldn't be done.

It's the old "perfect vs good" argument. I would personally say the salary caps have absolutely made a difference. You used to have certain clubs across the state who would just hoover up the best players every year. Player movement is down, and in metro leagues with divisions, i'm pretty sure the data (how promoted clubs fare) says that divisions are getting more equal - ie the best clubs have less of a share of the best players, they're spreading down the pyramid. There has been an impact and it has been positive.
 
Fruit said:
Spare a moment to think about the poor Wangaratta Players getting around Wang (or Alice Springs) with a Wang 2022 Premiers tattoo.
Click to expand...
I think the oandm league office must have read all of tennis fans hand written letters.

Really good call by the league, ballsy, gutsy and in the right spirit of the game. If you're going to cheat, cover your tracks properly, anyone that thinks it was a simple mistake by a volunteer for this level of footy is kidding themselves. Most importantly all clubs are on notice, if you decide to try fudge the books there's pretty hefty penalties, none of the players fault though, they have no idea of finances they turn up and play, so you've gotta feel for them, how many will leave the club now?
 
Bunk Moreland said:
Most people say this but it's not actually true. Of course the system is not 100% watertight, and at local level it never will be.

But it is not the free-for-all that some think it still is. If it was then no club would ever be caught... and they have been, including this time.

Bigger leagues particularly do have measures in place. They have full access to club financial statements every year. They have contracts signed by every player and club. The club president and treasurer - who at a big club are generally people with some sort of considerable business and/or community profile outside of football - have to sign stat decs certifying that the player payment records are complete and accurate.

Yes, to some it'll mean nothing, but that's a big risk to your reputation. I wouldn't do it, personally.

And if the league is properly set up with access to financials, it's certainly not straightforward to just pay what you like. It stands out like dogs balls pretty quickly if it's a considerable sum of money.

So you have the third party deals... that's basically impossible to police, even the AFL can't do it. If clubs are lucky enough to have benefactors who will just hand over cash for nothing in return to pay players, well again, there's not a lot you can do. But that doesn't mean the stuff you can control shouldn't be done.

It's the old "perfect vs good" argument. I would personally say the salary caps have absolutely made a difference. You used to have certain clubs across the state who would just hoover up the best players every year. Player movement is down, and in metro leagues with divisions, i'm pretty sure the data (how promoted clubs fare) says that divisions are getting more equal - ie the best clubs have less of a share of the best players, they're spreading down the pyramid. There has been an impact and it has been positive.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with most, if not all that you have said. I just think the only difference is that points have been the biggest player in limiting player movement across local footy. Salary cap has helped, but more so with the points.
Clubs now have to build their lists over time, instead of going bang all at once.


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Points system needs a major review. Get rid of Albury, Wang and Shepp junior comps. Allocate major league clubs x amount of clubs as 1 pointers, eg Yarra get Mulwala, Tungamah and Rennie, Rovers get Moyhu, North, Myrtleford get Bright, Maggies get Tarrawingee, just examples, broaden the 1 point base so communites work together also ensuring that "smaller" clubs may have more feeder clubs.
 
Peta Deutschland said:
I totally agree with most, if not all that you have said. I just think the only difference is that points have been the biggest player in limiting player movement across local footy. Salary cap has helped, but more so with the points.
Clubs now have to build their lists over time, instead of going bang all at once.


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Click to expand...
Peta, your biased views are worrying, don’t attack other clubs, it’s not their fault the “volunteers made an honest mistake”.
 
Peta Deutschland said:
Clubs like Corowa, Raiders, North Albury would be given extra player points to help attract more talent into the group. They would also be forced to focus on retaining junior talent in their side which would give them a better chance at sustained success.
Would you rather the cap be $70k? Plus less points? What’s your solution? Seems you are only reactive to the problem. Are you a board member at the O&M?


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Click to expand...
Wangaratta rovers for example have plenty of home grown local talent on there list and a number of 100 game players for the club! Don’t need to name these specific players, there would certainty be some top end talent this year that top them up that may be outsiders and not home grown but I am going to take a stab in the dark here and say most of the home grown players would be getting base payment to maybe $250 maximum per game
 
Makita Rabbit said:
Forget the Cap?!? Are you living in LaLa land?!! How are small community clubs like North, Myrt Rovers and C/Rutherglen supposed to compete with the cashed up clubs like Albury and the Maggies?? Ridiculous comment.
Click to expand...
Small community clubs and you've listed the Rovers? The blokes paying two YouTubers to drive up the highway each week? The same club paying VFL players to fly in and out when they have a bye or don't get selected?
 

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Ovens & Murray discussion 2023

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