Player Watch Pick #16 (2016) - Todd Marshall

[philthy05]

Can you imagine coming to the Todd Marshall thread to complain that people aren't talking about Esava instead?

Go critique him in the Esava thread. No-one will care.

Stop making out that people who have anything negative to say about a guy who has been on our list for 8 years just don't like him because it's personal for some reason.

Man you’ve got it backwards. Who has a problem with esava?

He’s been brought up by posters many many times arguing, gee this esava is good, he’s been so much better and influential than Todd, which of course has brought about some fact checking and reality checks about what esava is actually doing.

No one arguing against that has said esava is shit, or that they wouldn’t be picking esava, they’ve just called it out for what it is. One eyed bias not based on reality.

 

[backtozero]

Man you’ve got it backwards. Who has a problem with esava?

He’s been brought up by posters many many times arguing, gee this esava is good, he’s been so much better and influential than Todd, which of course has brought about some fact checking and reality checks about what esava is actually doing.

No one arguing against that has said esava is shit, or that they wouldn’t be picking esava, they’ve just called it out for what it is. One eyed bias not based on reality.

What Esava is doing is providing more of a physical presence than what Todd is capable of doing.

You can bring up whatever stats you want to in order to prove that isn't the case and that Todd is actually more capable than what people think, but as Clint above pointed out, the eyes don't lie.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Yes for a simple reason Esava isn’t the measuring stick anybody should be using.

He’s a KPF who didn’t /couldn’t make it at Geelong and we recruited him as a Defender.

The only relevance Sav has to Marshall is that it’s a travesty he in 3 games (one of which you yourself described as “great”) can be a lineball comparator with Marshall to the extent if George wasn’t injured people didn’t really think Marshall was an auto selection.

Chadbro for all the shit he cops at least was able to recognise something you and the rest of the Hot Toddy’s are incapable of which is that’s he’s best 22 “When in form” not some auto selection based on 4 and 5 goals hauls against state league level Richmond

He's the direct measuring stick at this point in the season because they're directly competing for the same spot, and that's what the entire discussion has been about. Georgiades is always coming back in, Dixon holds his spot, who plays 3rd KPF. We're not reverting to a 2 KPF system. It's about as direct a comparison as you can get. Previously, Todd has had people call for Lord to come in ahead of him as well, also on vibes and also ignoring what Lord is actually doing when he's playing.

Unless we're bringing in a small for him, and nobody sub 190cm is banging down that door at all, then Todd is best 22 when he's in the top 3 performing KPFs in the side, which he very clearly is when fit, even if you're disappointed with how he's developed.

 

[240volt]

What Esava is doing is providing more of a physical presence than what Todd is capable of doing.

You can bring up whatever stats you want to in order to prove that isn't the case and that Todd is actually more capable than what people think, but as Clint above pointed out, the eyes don't lie.

I like that one, the old physical presence.
See what philthy does with that

 

[philthy05]

Yes for a simple reason Esava isn’t the measuring stick anybody should be using.

Except people have, many many times.


Also you keep arguing it’s line ball,

It’s 1 goal 0 goal assists v

1.1 goals and 0.8 goal assists

That’s 1 goal v 1.9 goals in added score, an entirely relevant metric, and this is Todd’s down year after hip surgery and a couple of concussions / injuries.

Sav’s not yet near Todd’s previous year of 1.7 goals, which earned him a right blasting on this board as outright shit.

This isn’t to say that esava is bad, but at least have some consistency with how you judge kfs ffs.

 

[JimmyBC]

Probably the same blokes who called Darren Smith 'Doreen' while he was pivotal in umpteen flags.

 

[El_Scorcho]

What Esava is doing is providing more of a physical presence than what Todd is capable of doing.

Not against Melbourne he didn't. So even that isn't set in stone. So we're giving up a more productive KPF for a forward who is physically stronger and sometimes provides more of a presence.

John Butcher was someone who gave a strong physical presence in an era where we had a physically small forward line. He genuinely straightened us up and got us kicking to the hot spot instead of relying on Schulz and Wingard slotting goals from the boundary. In the Dixon era, we already have a target man type KPF, often to our detriment because of how we structure up around him. We don't need someone playing that role like we did when Butcher was doing it.

 

[240volt]

Probably the same blokes who called Darren Smith 'Doreen' while he was pivotal in umpteen flags.

He was the real deal, 343 games 456 goals.
Would be one of our best CHF’s ever.

 

[backtozero]

Not against Melbourne he didn't. So even that isn't set in stone. So we're giving up a more productive KPF for a forward who is physically stronger and sometimes provides more of a presence.

John Butcher was someone who gave a strong physical presence in an era where we had a physically small forward line. He genuinely straightened us up and got us kicking to the hot spot instead of relying on Schulz and Wingard slotting goals from the boundary. In the Dixon era, we already have a target man type KPF, often to our detriment because of how we structure up around him. We don't need someone playing that role like we did when Butcher was doing it.

Being a physical presence isn't a role, it's an attribute, and it's never a bad thing when you're talking about talls.

 

[philthy05]

What Esava is doing is providing more of a physical presence than what Todd is capable of doing.

You can bring up whatever stats you want to in order to prove that isn't the case and that Todd is actually more capable than what people think, but as Clint above pointed out, the eyes don't lie.

Like the umpteenth post admitting that there’s no other basis for their dislike of Todd other than feels.

He doesn’t make mean face enough or tough guys vibes.

Physical presence is such a load of wank.

1. Todd’s not getting bullied by his opponents , not remotely. Wins his matchup regularly. Our fb and chb physicality better their opponents at an insanely higher clip than goes against Todd.

So he’s not getting beaten by his opponent and marked on like not rated at all zerk is taking marks week in week on his opponents..

but he’s not physically imposing so it doesn’t matter.

2. Let’s take your value of physically imposing and test it.

Tommy Logan, infinitely more physically imposing than Rioli. Would you turf Rioli and play Tommy over him?

Matt Thomas, much more imposing physically player over rozee. Would you play Thomas over rozee?

Physically imposing is one attribute , it’s not the be all and end all.

Also, I’m not sure any teams give one shit about esavas “physical imposing”

I mean, we’ve had MR physically imposing owning the forward line for years and teams / defenders don’t seem to mind. They’re much more afraid of teams kicking goals on them.

Unless we're bringing in a small for him, and nobody sub 190cm is banging down that door at all, then Todd is best 22 when he's in the top 3 performing KPFs in the side, which he very clearly is when fit, even if you're disappointed with how he's developed.

Lol we’ve gifted 12 games each to mcintee and frank evans. Evans is ooc with 2 games left to go, he’s almost certainly going to get delisted and the amount of games we’ve gifted to mcintee is mind boggling.

It’s astounding that Todd is the forward that these guys draw the line through.

 

[240volt]

Physical presence is such a load of wank.

You obviously never seen Dave Granger play.

 

[drcollossimo]

Except people have, many many times.


Also you keep arguing it’s line ball,

It’s 1 goal 0 goal assists v

1.1 goals and 0.8 goal assists

That’s 1 goal v 1.9 goals in added score, an entirely relevant metric, and this is Todd’s down year after hip surgery and a couple of concussions / injuries.

Sav’s not yet near Todd’s previous year of 1.7 goals, which earned him a right blasting on this board as outright shit.

This isn’t to say that esava is bad, but at least have some consistency with how you judge kfs ffs.

Selective stats are selective Philthy last time we spoke you were talking about score assists until it was obvious there wasn’t much difference

You then discounted Savs superior CM stats because it suited your argument I note you’ve not included them again in this ^ post

Look realistically you and Scorcho for reasons I disagree with rate Marshall’s output

We are never going to agree good luck to you both

 

[El_Scorcho]

Being a physical presence isn't a role, it's an attribute, and it's never a bad thing when you're talking about talls.

Extra physicality is always good in a contact sport, but it needs to be balanced with skill, footy IQ, role within the team etc.

Aside from Dixon, the most physically imposing tall we've had in the Hinkley era is Jackson Trengove. He ended up effectively homeless in our side and traded away.

Trengove spent a year having to play ruck due to our poor list management and Paddy Ryder's suspension. After that, he was considered surplus to requirements in our defence (where he was a John Cahill Medallist) because we'd moved to a high press intercept style that he wasn't suited for. The defenders who played instead of him were smaller and less physically imposing.

Due to another list management ****up (delisting Butcher as Schulz retired and having no established KPFs apart from Dixon), we played him at KPF for the season in 2017. He was never a natural fit for that role despite being a competitive beast and large and imposing player, and we ended up dropping him at the end of the season and then trading him away.

I note that Trengove's 2017 season as a fwd/ruck (that saw him traded) was comfortably better than any of the 4 seasons that Ratugolea played at fwd/ruck for Geelong. Trengove was undoubtedly a competitive beast and physically imposing player who used that to great advantage during his years in defence, but physical presence wasn't enough for him to fit at either end for us.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Selective stats are selective Philthy last time we spoke you were talking about score assists until it was obvious there wasn’t much difference

It's not obvious and it never has been. This is a dumb argument that has been repeatedly refuted. You're wrong.

Todd averages more score involvements comfortably while playing KPF than Esava does. It's not even close.

Esava's 8 score involvements was his equal career best. His best 20 games for score involvements are the following:

8,8,6,6,6,5,5,5,5,5,5,4(as a defender),4(as a defender),4,4,4,4,4,4,4

Todd's best 20 games for score involvements are

11,11,11,10,10,9,9,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,7,7,7,7,7

6 of Todd's best results for score involvements including an 11 and a 10 have come in his "awful" 2024 season.

You then discounted Savs superior CM stats because it suited your argument I note you’ve not included them again in this ^ post

Is a mark worth more because it's contested? Todd takes plenty more marks, takes more of them on the lead, and takes more of them inside 50, even just during years that Esava has played KPF. Esava takes 0.4 contested marks a game more than Todd over their careers. Philthy is discounting it because it's ultimately a meaningless stat out of context

 

[Powerage]

Except people have, many many times.


Also you keep arguing it’s line ball,

It’s 1 goal 0 goal assists v

1.1 goals and 0.8 goal assists

That’s 1 goal v 1.9 goals in added score, an entirely relevant metric, and this is Todd’s down year after hip surgery and a couple of concussions / injuries.

Sav’s not yet near Todd’s previous year of 1.7 goals, which earned him a right blasting on this board as outright shit.

This isn’t to say that esava is bad, but at least have some consistency with how you judge kfs ffs.

Todd takes plenty more marks, takes more of them on the lead, and takes more of them inside 50,

Todd in 7 games has averaged 0.43 goals and GAs and 3.6 marks including 0.7 MOL a 1.7 i50 a game.
Esava in 3 games has averaged 1 goal, 0.33 GAs and 5.7 marks including 2.7 MOL and 3 i50 a game.

Todd has at least lingering hip issues, concussion issues and is in fact out due to the concussion protocol next week. He has played with the rest of our forward line for 15 games this season and his form has dropped in the last third of the season. Defenders know he is concussion prone and you better believe they will test it out.
Esava is fully fit, should improve his forward integration with each match. He is a contested target and provides a physical presence that draws defenders and brings the ball to ground. His goalkicking is a concern.

Esava has earned the right to play out the rest of the season as a KPF to prove himself either way. You don't get selected in mid August for what you did in the first 2 games of the season. Or last season. You surely earn selection based on your recent form, fitness and dirability. Todd has none and almost certainly won't for the rest of 2024.

If you can't accept that there is no helping you or anyone else who thinks otherwise.

 

[Windy Cindy]

No, I go to stats when I feel like a player is being posted about in a way I disagree with and I want to see how the stats match up with the opinion i've formed.

Do you go to the footy? And watch Todd live or simply rely on stats?

Cause if you watch him live you actually see how bad and non competitive he can be at times. How many times he is easy knocked off the ball well before the ball arrives.

Needs a long stint in sanfl to get back to an acceptable standard of commitment

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Probably the same blokes who called Darren Smith 'Doreen' while he was pivotal in umpteen flags.

I was at a game at Woody Oval back in the day and some WWT supporter went on about Doreen's handbag. I said to him Go check that handbag mate and you'll fine 8 premiership medals in there, more than your shit club has. He shut up about Smith after that.

Re Todd, he was working really well with Charlie and Esava in the first quarter of the Melbourne game before concussion intervened.

He isn't direct competition to Esava who plays a different game, but he complements him. His problem is this is now Georgiades's role under the current forward structure. If Charlie retires at the end of the year, Todd could fit into his position, although that requires a rework of how the forward line will play.

Or if Georgie becomes a Curnow type target, then Todd works around that.

A proper forward coach would be a handy get in the off-season. Wonder if Teague would come back to SA?

 

[Burningleviathan]

Any actual news on Todd and the knock he received on the weekend?

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Any actual news on Todd and the knock he received on the weekend?

Will miss the game under concussion protocols, saw video of him training early in the week. No more has been shared.

 

[El_Scorcho]

Do you go to the footy? And watch Todd live or simply rely on stats?

Cause if you watch him live you actually see how bad and non competitive he can be at times. How many times he is easy knocked off the ball well before the ball arrives.

Needs a long stint in sanfl to get back to an acceptable standard of commitment

Yes, I go to most home games.

I also watch a lot of key forwards around the league and see what they're doing on a week to week basis. Todd has a positive impact, even in a down year, in what is a forward structure that absolutely doesn't get the best out of its players.

 

[PowerLil]

Probably the same blokes who called Darren Smith 'Doreen' while he was pivotal in umpteen flags.

Jack used to always say he was the first on the team sheet.

 

[pstew2dstew]

I don't think it's cut and dry,

I like what Esava is doing up forward, but I also believe Marshall has more to give if he can get his health in check.

They are not really comparable players imo.

 

[jac147]

Probably the same blokes who called Darren Smith 'Doreen' while he was pivotal in umpteen flags.

That’s what crow supporters called him. To me he never shirked a contest

 

[Imhotep]

We've generated the most shots on goal this year at 28 a game, our inaccuracy has been the biggest let down this year. Where we take the shots from is a reason for this for sure, although we have a lot of misses from 40 out straight in front compared to other teams. Todd's had his worst year to date in front of goals and his expected score from the shots he's taken is way down on previous years.

In saying all this I've become quite apathetic to him and the way he plays quite simply on a work rate level. He doesn't lead hard enough away from his opponent runs to dumb spots and just seems to be content with playing a 6 out of ten game.

 

[Windy Cindy]

That’s what crow supporters called him. To me he never shirked a contest

agree, he always took his turn when required.