POLL - Do you support KNEELING?

[iBeng]

No one actually knows the true story behind Colin Kaepernick...only what they saw at face value: someone who knelt and disrespected the flag because he doesn't like seeing people killed.

No one seems to know he initially sat in protest until a veteran challenged him on it. It was the veteran that suggested he knelt instead as that was considered a sign of respect and was performed regularly by veterans.

I guess if it's acceptable by a veterans standards it should be alright for someone who hasnt served his country under the flag.

But what would I know.

 

[iBeng]

Had anyone looked at what police unions do in America?

It's time to kick police unions out of the labor movement. They aren't allies | Hamilton Nolan

Let’s put police unions on a raft and set them adrift. They can reapply for solidarity if they stop abusing the rest of us

www.theguardian.com

 

[p4p1]

1) look into it obviously. Get on the ground and find out what is holding people back and turning young people to crime.
2) nothing is an easy fix, and if there is any degree at all of racial profiling by anyone expected to police other people it should have zero tolerance, not ignored or buried or moved departments.
3) you need to talk to some aboriginal people, I have explained the viewpoint that aboriginals have personally told me, the ones I grew up with while raised on a sheep station. This society isnt for them but they are expected to adapt to a society that they never asked for.

Just because something is difficult to do and cant be done in immediately doesnt make it not worth doing.

ANY unnecessary death at the hands of law enforcement and who gives a shit about colour, sexuality, gender, religion whatever. Any amount is too much.

1) fair point.
2) I agree for the most part but racial profiling does work in many cases? is it wrong, probably but it seems to work. We just have to pretend like it doesn’t.
3) I grew up with aboriginals, at times being raised in the same house, I played footy in a team where aboriginal kids were heavily overrepresented, at the footy club that was across the road from an aboriginal mission/aboriginal only community, some of my oldest friends are aboriginal. Some of my friends were given scholarships to the best schools in the state simply for being aboriginal. Of the friends I still have contact with, the most successful one has a white father kept him inline. Many haven’t done any better than they would’ve without the top notch education they were given. Just because that’s their viewpoint, that doesn’t make it correct or accurate.

But your point again is total deflection. Sure they never asked for the current society, but time moves on, the world is what it is, someone was always going to ‘discover’ Australia the same way aborignal ancestors did 1000s of years ago. The first fleets probably didn’t want to live in the society they did either but were bought over as slaves, for what I understand were sometimes the most minor infractions. Living off the land is still as far as I can see an option for aboriginal people. If that is truly the preferred lifestyle then why not live as you want to live?

 

[p4p1]

No one actually knows the true story behind Colin Kaepernick...only what they saw at face value: someone who knelt and disrespected the flag because he doesn't like seeing people killed.

No one seems to know he initially sat in protest until a veteran challenged him on it. It was the veteran that suggested he knelt instead as that was considered a sign of respect and was performed regularly by veterans.

I guess if it's acceptable by a veterans standards it should be alright for someone who hasnt served his country under the flag.

But what would I know.

Didn’t like seeing blacks people killed.

1) look into it obviously. Get on the ground and find out what is holding people back and turning young people to crime.
2) nothing is an easy fix, and if there is any degree at all of racial profiling by anyone expected to police other people it should have zero tolerance, not ignored or buried or moved departments.
3) you need to talk to some aboriginal people, I have explained the viewpoint that aboriginals have personally told me, the ones I grew up with while raised on a sheep station. This society isnt for them but they are expected to adapt to a society that they never asked for.

Just because something is difficult to do and cant be done in immediately doesnt make it not worth doing.

ANY unnecessary death at the hands of law enforcement and who gives a shit about colour, sexuality, gender, religion whatever. Any amount is too much.

I forgot to mention in my original post, I like how you assume that all aboriginals feels the same because you spoke to some growing up. If there is one thing the left does love doing it’s making sure everyone knows that any POC has the exact same thoughts in every political and social issue.

 

[iBeng]

1) fair point.
2) I agree for the most part but racial profiling does work in many cases? is it wrong, probably but it seems to work. We just have to pretend like it doesn’t.
3) I grew up with aboriginals, at times being raised in the same house, I played footy in a team where aboriginal kids were heavily overrepresented, at the footy club that was across the road from an aboriginal mission/aboriginal only community, some of my oldest friends are aboriginal. Some of my friends were given scholarships to the best schools in the state simply for being aboriginal. Of the friends I still have contact with, the most successful one has a white father kept him inline. Many haven’t done any better than they would’ve without the top notch education they were given. Just because that’s their viewpoint, that doesn’t make it correct or accurate.

But your point again is total deflection. Sure they never asked for the current society, but time moves on, the world is what it is, someone was always going to ‘discover’ Australia the same way aborignal ancestors did 1000s of years ago. The first fleets probably didn’t want to live in the society they did either but were bought over as slaves, for what I understand were sometimes the most minor infractions. Living off the land is still as far as I can see an option for aboriginal people. If that is truly the preferred lifestyle then why not live as you want to live?

Sorry I'm not in a great way to answer this right now, being wheeled around.

I'll try to get to though I dont like being called a deflector.

 

[iBeng]

I forgot to mention in my original post, I like how you assume that all aboriginals feels the same because you spoke to some growing up. If there is one thing the left does love doing it’s making sure everyone knows that any POC has the exact same thoughts in every political and social issue.

I'm going off the knowledge given to me by someone with aboriginal knowledge, the conclusion I drew was based on their history.

But who cares about history.

 

[p4p1]

No one is blaming white people, that's just another way of saying "all lives matter!" Which would be like bursting into a breast cancer awareness event and shouting "ALL CANCERS MATTER!"

No one is saying white people should be made to repent or suffer or give up anything, it's about everyone in America getting a chance at that good old American dream despite the circumstances of their birth.

Mewtwo said it best ironically:
View attachment 891929

I’ve seen those memes around as well. The irony is that BLM refuses to accept that white people are being killed by police in an arguably disproportionate amount when considering crime rates. So without meaning to the ALM people could have an excellent point.

The idea of the American dream is a myth. The most important factors of having a good and or successful life in the US are a 2 parent home and family connections/money. Race is not relatively important when compared to those two factors. Of course there is a historic disadvantage when it comes black america s having family money and connections but the same could also be said for those who have recently immigrated to the US as well.

 

[Cuzz09]

Haha, you really are hilariously ignorant.

Do you know what BLM represents? It's a bit more than what the manipulative acronym might have simple-mind people like yourself believing.
BLM is calling for police departments to be defunded and outright dismantled. They believe rioting is the language of the people. They're using that raised money to bail rioters and criminals out of jail.

But hey, keep thinking all "symbols" are great, and that we shouldn't worry too much about what they represent. Keep that head buried in the sand.

Yeah Im just saying the act is a symbol.

On SM-G925I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[p4p1]

Had anyone looked at what police unions do in America?

It's time to kick police unions out of the labor movement. They aren't allies | Hamilton Nolan

Let’s put police unions on a raft and set them adrift. They can reapply for solidarity if they stop abusing the rest of us

www.theguardian.com

Of the developed democratic world America probably has the worst police force by the length of Flemington straight.

 

[iBeng]

I’ve seen those memes around as well. The irony is that BLM refuses to accept that white people are being killed by police in an arguably disproportionate amount when considering crime rates. So without meaning to the ALM people could have an excellent point.

The idea of the American dream is a myth. The most important factors of having a good and or successful life in the US are a 2 parent home and family connections/money. Race is not relatively important when compared to those two factors. Of course there is a historic disadvantage when it comes black america s having family money and connections but the same could also be said for those who have recently immigrated to the US as well.

Nothing to do with numbers of whites vs blacks of course.

I just saw an interesting article:

Stuff

i.stuff.co.nz

He wouldn't get death in Australia, would we protest for his freedom for his crimes, based on the criminal system being different in China than here?

 

[iBeng]

Of the developed democratic world America probably has the worst police force by the length of Flemington straight.

So a union designed to keep their failings quiet so good people dont lose their jobs is worthy of fixing it?

 

[p4p1]

I'm going off the knowledge given to me by someone with aboriginal knowledge, the conclusion I drew was based on their history.

But who cares about history.

I’m going off my own interactions, I know some aboriginal people that have almost cut off their families. Not because they hate them or hate their own aboriginality but because they don’t like the negativity their family brings to their lives. They still visit family, love their family etc but their family doesn’t know where they live etc because they don’t want their family destroying their home and lifestyle. Not all aboriginals are like that though because they are capable of having individual thought, views etc.

Its like saying all black people believe Trayvon Martin was a martyr and Zimmerman (who is Latino and not white) got off only because he was white. When many black people know that the Martin was far from a saint, actively contributed to his own death and due to Florida state law Zimmerman legally killed Martin.

I can talk about what’s going on and has gone on in the US for days because I lived in Jamaica which is very much within the US ‘bubble’, my wife is a proudly and pro-black Jamaican woman. We have arguments about politics and social issues in my house probably far too often about the goings on in the US.

But we can both agree that realistically what is seen to be going on here or in the US is NOWHERE near as bad as what’s happening in other countries to black people either by black people or by people of different races.

 

[iBeng]

I’m going off my own interactions, I know some aboriginal people that have almost cut off their families. Not because they hate them or hate their own aboriginality but because they don’t like the negativity their family brings to their lives. They still visit family, love their family etc but their family doesn’t know where they live etc because they don’t want their family destroying their home and lifestyle. Not all aboriginals are like that though because they are capable of having individual thought, views etc.

Its like saying all black people believe Trayvon Martin was a martyr and Zimmerman (who is Latino and not white) got off only because he was white. When many black people know that the Martin was far from a saint, actively contributed to his own death and due to Florida state law Zimmerman legally killed Martin.

I can talk about what’s going on and has gone on in the US for days because I lived in Jamaica which is very much within the US ‘bubble’, my wife is a proudly and pro-black Jamaican woman. We have arguments about politics and social issues in my house probably far too often about the goings on in the US.

But we can both agree that realistically what is seen to be going on here or in the US is NOWHERE near as bad as what’s happening in other countries to black people either by black people or by people of different races.

I'm not claiming it's as bad as America but I'm also saying that's not a valid reason for the people who knelt not to kneel.

I'm also not claiming it's perfect. No one can. And it should constantly be under review. Like the article I linked confirmed.

 

[p4p1]

So a union designed to keep their failings quiet so good people dont lose their jobs is worthy of fixing it?

Did I say that?
How do you legally get rid of a union though? And for that very reason the police department will be disbanded and immediately started again that sees almost everyone get rehired in an effort to get rid of the bad apples. But Im not sure that works all the time. Historically it has worked, in Singapore for instance but that was a much different situation.

Did you ever think that maybe the reason why these things get so much air is because taking real steps to fix problems is not one anyone with money or powers agenda?

 

[iBeng]

I'm not claiming it's as bad as America but I'm also saying that's not a valid reason for the people who knelt not to kneel.

I'm also not claiming it's perfect. No one can. And it should constantly be under review. Like the article I linked confirmed.

Did I say that?
How do you legally get rid of a union though? And for that very reason the police department will be disbanded and immediately started again that sees almost everyone get rehired in an effort to get rid of the bad apples. But Im not sure that works all the time. Historically it has worked, in Singapore for instance but that was a much different situation.

Did you ever think that maybe the reason why these things get so much air is because taking real steps to fix problems is not one anyone with money or powers agenda?

Then maybe we should make it there agenda by...protesting? People power? Shit man I don't know, sounds a lot better than shrugging your shoulders and saying "it's not perfect but itll do."

 

[p4p1]

I'm not claiming it's as bad as America but I'm also saying that's not a valid reason for the people who knelt not to kneel.

I'm also not claiming it's perfect. No one can. And it should constantly be under review. Like the article I linked confirmed.

You’re claiming that refusing to kneel for an agenda that for the most parts isn’t based on facts within context is not a valid reason to decide not to kneel?

 

[p4p1]

Then maybe we should make it there agenda by...protesting? People power? Shit man I don't know, sounds a lot better than shrugging your shoulders and saying "it's not perfect but itll do."

But the ones protesting and marching aren’t doing it with the agenda to fix the actual problems. The agenda their marching and/or kneeling for is severely flawed. I don’t know why you can’t see that.

 

[PurpleEyes]

No one actually knows the true story behind Colin Kaepernick...only what they saw at face value: someone who knelt and disrespected the flag because he doesn't like seeing people killed.

No one seems to know he initially sat in protest until a veteran challenged him on it. It was the veteran that suggested he knelt instead as that was considered a sign of respect and was performed regularly by veterans.

I guess if it's acceptable by a veterans standards it should be alright for someone who hasnt served his country under the flag.

But what would I know.

Kaepernick sat during the national anthem before he actually did the take the knee in a later game.
The veteran was disgusted by Kaepernick's action of sitting so he wrote a letter and then met with him.
The veteran thought a compromise of taking the knee would be more respectful than sitting during the anthem given taking the knee had a history of respectful protest.
But none of that changes the fact that the majority of the public perceived Kaepernick's action as disrespecting the national anthem and the flag ... something the veteran also initially thought.
From that point on, it became a topic promoted by the political left and BLM as injustice of blacks by the police and for the conservative right it was a sign of disrespect for the US and what it offers people of all race and colour. This divisive civil unrest is now promoted more than ever and is now being politically weaponised to help the left and the Democrats to beat Trump in the November elections. That is, it is political in every sense and should not be part of AFL.

Again, why are AFL players now doing this. If taking the knee has and is simply a sign of respect, why do we have no history of ever doing it before in an AFL game. And if it is simply a sign of respect, why is there such a political divide with it's use. There has been unanimous condemnation of the officer who murdered George Floyd and everybody (black/white/Democrat/Republican) has been calling for swift and decisive action by the Democrat leaders of the state of Minnesota in which it occurred ... but when it comes to taking the knee ... only the left and the Democrats are pushing this because to the conservative Republican right it is now a sign of disrespect of the US flag and national anthem.

 

[iBeng]

You’re claiming that refusing to kneel for an agenda that for the most parts isn’t based on facts within context is not a valid reason to decide not to kneel?

No, never said that. I said they were not forced they didnt have to kneel if they didnt want and I wouldnt expect them to.

I also wouldnt automatically assume they wanted cops to shoot people for fun if they didnt kneel.

Your arguement is that if they didnt kneel people like me would call for their head because of my agenda to start a class war for world domination or some crap.

 

[iBeng]

Kaepernick sat during the national anthem before he actually did the take the knee in a later game.
The veteran was disgusted by Kaepernick's action of sitting so he wrote a letter and then met with him.
The veteran thought a compromise of taking the knee would be more respectful than sitting during the anthem given taking the knee had a history of respectful protest.
But none of that changes the fact that the majority of the public perceived Kaepernick's action as disrespecting the national anthem and the flag ... something the veteran also initially thought.
From that point on, it became a topic promoted by the political left and BLM as injustice of blacks by the police and for the conservative right it was a sign of disrespect for the US and what it offers people of all race and colour. This divisive civil unrest is now promoted more that ever and is now being politically weaponised to help the left and the Democrats to beat Trump in the November elections. That is, it is political in every sense and should not be part of AFL.

Again, why are AFL players now doing this. If taking the knee has and is simply a sign of respect, why do we have no history of ever doing it before in an AFL game. And if it is simply a sign of respect, why is there such a political divide with it's use. There has been unanimous condemnation of the officer who murdered George Floyd and everybody (black/white/Democrat/Republican) has been calling for swift and decisive action by the Democrat leaders of the state of Minnesota in which it occurred ... but when it comes to taking the knee ... only the left and the Democrats are pushing this because to the conservative Republican right it is now a sign of disrespect of the US flag and national anthem.

Yes, aiming for better equality in an entire country just to win an election, how dare those filthy animals try and improve life for everyone just to get into power.

 

[iBeng]

You know what? Here's a middle ground for you.

Let's for a moment agree that both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Big assumptions. Those assumptions are:

1) the players are being forced to kneel to benefit the campaign of a group who wants to destroy life as we know it

2) the players are all free willed human beings who chose to kneel as a collective group in a predetermined agreement.

 

[PurpleEyes]

You know what? Here's a middle ground for you.

Let's for a moment agree that both sides of this arguement are making assumptions. Big assumptions. Those assumptions are:

1) the players are being forced to kneel to benefit the campaign of a group who wants to destroy life as we know it

2) the players are all free willed human beings who chose to kneel as a collective group in a predetermined agreement.

The poll has about a third of people voting No.
So one has to be extremely naive if they think that all 100% of the AFL players are behind this.
They are all doing it because they've been told to by their employers ... which begs the questions why, why now and who forced this on them.
And how is this a good thing for AFL?
I chose not to even watch a game this round because of it.
I just want to watch and enjoy my AFL and not have some politically motivated piece of propaganda shoved down my throat.

 

[iBeng]

The poll has about a third of people voting No.
So one has to be extremely naive if they think that all 100% of the AFL players are behind this.
They are all doing it because they've been told to by their employers ... which begs the questions why, why now and who forced this on them.
And how is this a good thing for AFL?
I chose not to even watch a game this round because of it.
I just want to watch and enjoy my AFL and not have some politically motivated piece of propaganda shoved down my throat.

Wait sorry, are you using those closed sample of votes to 100% confirm that one third of the players who knelt...did not want to. And were forced to. Under threat.

 

[Schnitzengruben]

Wait sorry, are you using those closed sample of votes to 100% confirm that one third of the players who knelt...did not want to. And were forced to. Under threat.

He's roughly equating the 2:1 favourability and applying the same ratio to AFL players. Would AFL players be more or less to agree with movements like this - who is to say? Sure it's not perfect science, but it's a reasonable starting point.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Obviously some players in the AFL would have an issue with it. It really would be naive to think otherwise. I don't think you could get all 850~ players to agree on one single thing, let alone a politically divisive movement.

The question is though; if those who opposed the movement refused to kneel, how would they have been dealt with? "Oh Johnny McGee refused to kneel. That's ok, it's his choice!" Give us a spell. I think those who DARE oppose would feel the full wrath of the social media hero's/cancel culture, being permanently labelled as racists, hurt their current/future marketability etc. Look no further than Twitter, which is a breeding ground for this stuff.

So those players are probably thinking - is it worth it? I know for a fact that I wouldn't want to kneel for anyone, but at the same time, I'd probably let go of my own personal views to continue my extremely lucrative AFL playing career on big money, rooting fit birds and intact public reputation.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Wait sorry, are you using those closed sample of votes to 100% confirm that one third of the players who knelt...did not want to. And were forced to. Under threat.

I think assuming that players have simply followed orders to kneel is far more likely than "they are all free willed and chose to kneel as a collective group in a predetermined agreement."
Players by the nature of their job are expected to perform a team role, answer media questions a certain way, etc... they really do not have free will as you choose to simply assume when it comes to one particular decision like whether to kneel or not. They do have free will as to whether they wish to keep their job as specified by their employer. I don't expect any AFL player to quit playing AFL over their principles of whether to kneel or not. After all, I chose not to watch this round of AFL, but I wouldn't give up a dream job worth possibly $1,000,000s over the issue.