Vic Predict the outcome of the 2018 Victorian State Election

[Bombermania]

Yes I am. It was immensely better than what's been proposed. There was a rail line to Healesville, Warburton, Leongatha and even Mornington.

Sure those lines should be reopened and eventually some of them will be but the problem we have is that the system was so under developed for decades that now governments are playing catch up, but at least Victoria isn't as far behind as NSW is having ripped up a city wide tram network which was more extensive than the Melbourne one.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Did they break their own rules? Seems to me that it had been through a lengthy process already and have made one allowance unlike dodgy Guy numerous dodgy deals. Isn't that what choosing a government/Premier should be all about?

I don't jump to a conclusion based on one incident. You should try it.

It's not one incident. The Labor government created Infrastructure Victoria 'to take the politics out of infrastructure'. Come election time they unveil a $50 billion rail loop project that was not in the Infrastructure Victoria plan. That's breaking their own rules at a structural level not one occasion. Isn't that what choosing a government/Premier should be all about?

I've also highlighted where Labor planning Minister Richard Wynne changed the rules in favour of developers, resulting in 54,000 sqm of commercial floor area being awarded to applicants but with ZERO community benefits such as libraries, aquatic centres, art galleries, performance spaces, meeting rooms, kindergartens, social housing, open space etc. Anything to say about this?

You have previously given the impression that you were a greenie but you are looking like a Labor stooge.

 

[go you pups]

Sure those lines should be reopened and eventually some of them will be but the problem we have is that the system was so under developed for decades that now governments are playing catch up, but at least Victoria isn't as far behind as NSW is having ripped up a city wide tram network which was more extensive than the Melbourne one.

And they did it in 1961 apparently, wow

Who planned these things back then? So so short sighted.

But yeah, The Loop is a good example of our public transport system being under developed with limited room to cater for expansion, so expanding through other means is the only option, like these new underground lines being built elsewhere.

The Loop only has 4 platforms and services a dozen or so lines, but the Sandy and Willy lines don't go through The Loop due to lack of space IIRC, so they just go to Flinders St and back.

An Airport line is the next step, but please do not privatise it like them greedy Sydney flogs.

 

[laam]

It's more like 5m deep at most and water isn't going to flow into it unless they quite literally dig the trench into Cardinia Creek.

Digging a trench and lining with an RSS wall is a far cheaper solution than elevating a rail. Especially since the soil in the east is ass and the foundations will need to be immense. Probably half the mechanical strength of the mudstone in Oakleigh.

If you're going to pretend you know what your talking about best not to say you would use an RSS wall in a cut.

Think you mean soil nails. Useless if below water table as they leak. But can't say I know the local conditions. Quality of soil doesn't make much of a difference for elevated rail as a few longer piles isn't that big of a deal. Poor soil in a cut can eliminate the cheaper soil nail option and require a full piled wall.

Cuts also take up a wider footprint. So unless heaps of space available this means longer shutdowns.

Cuts are not cheaper than elevated rail. Maybe about the same if no major services to relocate and not below the water table.

The choice of option in the Frankston line is political. They should all be over given the soil and water table but they couldn't risk the backlash. See the now complete Skye Rd level crossing removal.

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[Bombermania]

And they did it in 1961 apparently, wow

Who planned these things back then? So so short sighted.

But yeah, The Loop is a good example of our public transport system being under developed with limited room to cater for expansion, so expanding through other means is the only option, like these new underground lines being built elsewhere.

The Loop only has 4 platforms and services a dozen or so lines, but the Sandy and Willy lines don't go through The Loop due to lack of space IIRC, so they just go to Flinders St and back.

An Airport line is the next step, but please do not privatise it like them greedy Sydney flogs.

Governments between the 1950s to 1990s have a lot to answer for, including the removing or shortening of several train lines such as the ones Benny78 alluded too. There was a real belief at the time that everyone would drive a car and a bus would be the future of public transport, even in Victoria there were some that wanted to remove the Melbourne tram network, even today some people think Melbourne would be less congested without trams despite many of Melbourne's most congested streets being without a tramline.

 

[Maggie5]

You have previously given the impression that you were a greenie but you are looking like a Labor stooge.

Great discussion! thanks!

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

If you're going to pretend you know what your talking about best not to say you would use an RSS wall in a cut.

Think you mean soil nails. Useless if below water table as they leak. But can't say I know the local conditions. Quality of soil doesn't make much of a difference for elevated rail as a few longer piles isn't that big of a deal. Poor soil in a cut can eliminate the cheaper soil nail option and require a full piled wall.

Cuts also take up a wider footprint. So unless heaps of space available this means longer shutdowns.

Cuts are not cheaper than elevated rail. Maybe about the same if no major services to relocate and not below the water table.

The choice of option in the Frankston line is political. They should all be over given the soil and water table but they couldn't risk the backlash. See the now complete Skye Rd level crossing removal.

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Pretend I know what I'm talking about? Lol. Don't think I've worked on a single cut job in my career that hasn't had soil straps as part of the backfill of the over-excavation. You must do things differently; let me know where you do it differently so I don't accidentally end up under one of your walls.

The cost difference between 9m piles and 29m piles is a pretty big deal. Cuts can be significantly cheaper than elevated precast concrete structures, especially so if like in Pakenham, there are no major services to relocate. A cut wasn't practical in Frankston, it looks to be practical in Pakenham.

 

[Sainteric]

Clearly fast trains to the regions in a reasonable time frame is the best solution to congestion and the best policy of either party. Labor's build a train line at what seem a km a year isn't going to really achieve a lot and by the time its finished who knows if it will be useful.

The Alp will win and we only have ourselves to blame for allowing congestion to worsen / or not demanding big infrastructure projects that solve problems

 

[Hornberger]

Clearly fast trains to the regions in a reasonable time frame is the best solution to congestion and the best policy of either party. Labor's build a train line at what seem a km a year isn't going to really achieve a lot and by the time its finished who knows if it will be useful.

You would have to be incredibly gullible to believe the Liberal's promise of 32 minute travel between Melbourne and Geelong by 2022. The planning and design phase alone would be 18 - 24 months. Then you would to reconsider the amount engineering work required to allow high speed operation. You would have also need acquire the trains capable of travelling at those speeds.

I wouldn't call it a plan - it barely qualifies as a thought bubble.

 

[aCunningPlan]

Clearly fast trains to the regions in a reasonable time frame is the best solution to congestion and the best policy of either party. Labor's build a train line at what seem a km a year isn't going to really achieve a lot and by the time its finished who knows if it will be useful.

The Alp will win and we only have ourselves to blame for allowing congestion to worsen / or not demanding big infrastructure projects that solve problems

The Liberals plan for the Ballarat line is a complete joke. Saying the journey will be under an hour with no real details whatsoever is laughable. If you want to improve the journey to the regions in a reasonable time frame, then you can't go past labors plan to duplicate and electrify the line to melton, create more crossing loops between Bacchus marsh and Ballarat, and build new platforms at Bacchus marsh and Ballan. It completely removes suburban passengers from VLine trains to improve comfort and increases the regularity of trains. And the best part is the rail revival project is already underway.

 

[Sainteric]

You would have to be incredibly gullible to believe the Liberal's promise of 32 minute travel between Melbourne and Geelong by 2022. The planning and design phase alone would be 18 - 24 months. Then you would to reconsider the amount engineering work required to allow high speed operation. You would have also need acquire the trains capable of travelling at those speeds.

I wouldn't call it a plan - it barely qualifies as a thought bubble.

Yes because as Andrew's stated 30 years to build a railway across Melbourne and the Brits built cross rail in what?

 

[Hornberger]

Yes because as Andrew's stated 30 years to build a railway across Melbourne and the Brits built cross rail in what?

Labor's plan is achievable and while ambitious in scope is highly conservative in time expected for completion.

The Liberal's plan is a fairytale. In the unlikely event that the Liberals win the election, what they ultimately deliver will bear little resembles to what is being promised.

 

[go you pups]

You would have to be incredibly gullible to believe the Liberal's promise of 32 minute travel between Melbourne and Geelong by 2022. The planning and design phase alone would be 18 - 24 months. Then you would to reconsider the amount engineering work required to allow high speed operation. You would have also need acquire the trains capable of travelling at those speeds.

I wouldn't call it a plan - it barely qualifies as a thought bubble.

Exactly this

Our tracks surely can't handle the heat in summer

Andrews' calls electrifying Wyndham Vale and Melton and adding more tracks on those lines will vastly aid the Geelong and Ballarat line times I'd imagine

 

[go you pups]

Yes because as Andrew's stated 30 years to build a railway across Melbourne and the Brits built cross rail in what?

It's all built up areas Andrews wants to build through with the suburban rail ring

Properties will need to be bought out, roads and other train lines restructured etc

It will be a massive challenge, but one that will be able to be done if planned and invested into

The Airport needs to be done first though

 

[Benny78]

Incredible that he's removing boat ramp fees. They're blatant robbery $12 a shot and the money never went into any ramp facilities.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Yes because as Andrew's stated 30 years to build a railway across Melbourne and the Brits built cross rail in what?

Approved in 2007 due for finishing in 2019. Although some of the route is already there. It's the tunnel that's mostly new.

 

[GreatBradScott]

Clearly fast trains to the regions in a reasonable time frame is the best solution to congestion and the best policy of either party. Labor's build a train line at what seem a km a year isn't going to really achieve a lot and by the time its finished who knows if it will be useful.

The Alp will win and we only have ourselves to blame for allowing congestion to worsen / or not demanding big infrastructure projects that solve problems

Ahh yes, like the Napthine Liberal Government who promised Rowville Rail, Doncaster Rail, Avalon Rail.

Let's see how those rail lines are going............oh that's right! They didn't build them! They didn't even do anything in Government except check their emails!

Now let's see what Labor are doing:

Metro Tunnel: tick - in progress
Mernda rail extension: tick
$1.8b regional rail revival - upgrades on every regional line: tick - in progress
Murray Basin Rail Project - tick - in progress
Promised to have 20 level crossings removed by 2018: tick - removed 29
High Capacity Metro Train - tick - in progress
100 new Xtrapolis trains since 2015 - tick
Scores more V/Locity trains on regional lines - tick

Let's see what else they have planned if elected:
Port Rail Shuttle, 25 more level crossings, Suburban Rail Loop, Western Rail Plan (high speed trains to Geelong, electrification to Melton and Wyndham Vale), Airport Rail.

They've upgraded the M80, Chandler Highway, Monash, dozens of roads in the South-East, North and West, building the West Gate Tunnel and North-East Link.

Rolled out billions in road safety upgrades in regional Vic, Midland Highway, Western Highway, Hume, the Portland. Last budget there was nearly a billion in road maintenance for country Vic.

The Liberals have zero credibility on infrastructure. They do nothing. Your entire post is nonsense. There is no contest.

Labor is ten thousand to the Liberals nil.

One party builds, the other talks about it and maybe signs one contract 95% into their term.

 

[Navyblues09]

Labor- Promised cancer compensation for firefighters within first 100 days of term, 4 years up and zilch, nada, nothing. Only state in the country without it. In fact they have voted against it on a number of occasions

On the plus side they promised the UFU everything they ever wanted and realised they couldnt even deliver on that!

Only hope is Andrews doesnt get a majority in both houses as first bill will surely be to destroy the fire services

 

[GreatBradScott]

Labor- Promised cancer compensation for firefighters within first 100 days of term, 4 years up and zilch, nada, nothing. Only state in the country without it. In fact they have voted against it on a number of occasions

On the plus side they promised the UFU everything they ever wanted and realised they couldnt even deliver on that!

Only hope is Andrews doesnt get a majority in both houses as first bill will surely be to destroy the fire services

You mean when the Liberals voted it down at the death? You mean when Bernie Finn and Craig Ondarchie exploited their faith on Good Friday to cast the deciding votes?

Go email your local Liberal member of parliament and ask why they believe firefighters don't deserve those rights.

I am sure after their war on ambos and slashing of police funding while in government, they have extensive experience and reasons for their loathing of those in emergency services.

 

[Jascave]

If you guys on Big Footy reckon we could be in for an early finish on election night, think again. Despite the opinion polls pointing to a big Labor win, it might be a lot closer than you think.

 

[laam]

Pretend I know what I'm talking about? Lol. Don't think I've worked on a single cut job in my career that hasn't had soil straps as part of the backfill of the over-excavation. You must do things differently; let me know where you do it differently so I don't accidentally end up under one of your walls.

The cost difference between 9m piles and 29m piles is a pretty big deal. Cuts can be significantly cheaper than elevated precast concrete structures, especially so if like in Pakenham, there are no major services to relocate. A cut wasn't practical in Frankston, it looks to be practical in Pakenham.

Maybe you shouldn't over excavate haha. We just fill any over excavation during cut with extra shotcrete. But we are only out by a few hundred mm at worst. Don't know where you can be over excavating the few metres min to need an RSS wall. And if it's only due to over excavation then not sure how it's the solution to cheap trenches.

I've worked on about half the level crossing removals in some capacity so far. So you probably already have. Never used RSS for a cut yet. Used plenty of times on overs for the embankment before the bridge.

Unless you are piling coode Island silt where are you getting 29m piles for elevated rail in Melbourne? If you need piles that deep. The soil is rubbish. May not even suit cheap soil nails and need piles every few m instead which isn't cheap.

Given the new precast u trough shape costs of elevated rail have increased but for equivalent length cut or elevated you would need everything to go right in terms of favourable site conditions to get level dollars.

Some sites dramatically favour one option due to the surrounding terrain so there may be some of those in Pakenham like Buckley St was. Again I'm not aware of the site so unless you have more information I doubt you can make the call either given a lot would need to go your way.

The first few track lowers were much cheaper but the market has moved due to the masses of construction work at the moment. Politicians should have spaced these out more but it's in boom now and labour is way more expensive. Also the newer projects are taking the option to undertake urban renewal in addition to crossing removals further inflating the prices.

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[Navyblues09]

You mean when the Liberals voted it down at the death? You mean when Bernie Finn and Craig Ondarchie exploited their faith on Good Friday to cast the deciding votes?

Go email your local Liberal member of parliament and ask why they believe firefighters don't deserve those rights.

I am sure after their war on ambos and slashing of police funding while in government, they have extensive experience and reasons for their loathing of those in emergency services.

The Liberals voted down the disgraceful legislation to destroy the fire services, the fact it took nearly 3 years to even introduce cancer compo then hold it hostage to their UFU takeover bill is a disgrace. There have been a number of motions voted down by Labor, Greens and 1 other to seperate the bills as well as an attempt to introduce the cancer compensation as a bill by itself. Fact is Andrews and Merlino refuse to keep their promise.

Besides their bill is a bullshit effort anyway and is only designed to protect the career firefighters, not the volunteers as they promised. Only state yet to introduce it and only state wanting to make it impossible for volunteers, but they are just taking their ideas from their puppet masters, the UFU.

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

If you guys on Big Footy reckon we could be in for an early finish on election night, think again. Despite the opinion polls pointing to a big Labor win, it might be a lot closer than you think.

It could be very close, that's why Labor shouldn't let up.

 

[Bombermania]

If you guys on Big Footy reckon we could be in for an early finish on election night, think again. Despite the opinion polls pointing to a big Labor win, it might be a lot closer than you think.

I don't think it will be an early night, the good thing about Victoria is we will get a really good idea early when the Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong areas start coming in, if they show the ALP holding then it might be an easy win for the Andrews government, but if we see swings the other way or in all directions then it raises the chance of a hung parliament or small majority. Victorian by nature don't usually swing as much as say Queensland does so the result can be clear pretty early. At this stage I think the result will look something like ALP with 42 to 48 seats, Liberals/Nats 33 to 42 seats, Greens 3 to 5 seats and, 1 or 2 independents.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Ahh yes, like the Napthine Liberal Government who promised Rowville Rail, Doncaster Rail, Avalon Rail.

Let's see how those rail lines are going............oh that's right! They didn't build them! They didn't even do anything in Government except check their emails!

Now let's see what Labor are doing:

Metro Tunnel: tick - in progress
Mernda rail extension: tick
$1.8b regional rail revival - upgrades on every regional line: tick - in progress
Murray Basin Rail Project - tick - in progress
Promised to have 20 level crossings removed by 2018: tick - removed 29
High Capacity Metro Train - tick - in progress
100 new Xtrapolis trains since 2015 - tick
Scores more V/Locity trains on regional lines - tick

Let's see what else they have planned if elected:
Port Rail Shuttle, 25 more level crossings, Suburban Rail Loop, Western Rail Plan (high speed trains to Geelong, electrification to Melton and Wyndham Vale), Airport Rail.

They've upgraded the M80, Chandler Highway, Monash, dozens of roads in the South-East, North and West, building the West Gate Tunnel and North-East Link.

Rolled out billions in road safety upgrades in regional Vic, Midland Highway, Western Highway, Hume, the Portland. Last budget there was nearly a billion in road maintenance for country Vic.

The Liberals have zero credibility on infrastructure. They do nothing. Your entire post is nonsense. There is no contest.

Labor is ten thousand to the Liberals nil.

One party builds, the other talks about it and maybe signs one contract 95% into their term.

Is congestion any better?