AFL Autopsy R2: Crows eviscerate us

[ant555]

Oh, and North Melbourne are going to leave us in their wake across 2025 and 2026.

Given they have spent 5 years taking top 10 picks you would expect them to .

 

[rumply]

 

[BrunoV]

Given they have spent 5 years taking top 10 picks you would expect them to .

Essendon

North___

2015

Parish (5), Francis (6), Gresham (18, trade) McKay (21, trade)

McKay (21) ______________________________

2016	McGrath (1)	Logue (8, trade), Simpkin (12)
2017	N/A	LDU (4)
2018	Caldwell (11, trade), Duursma (18, trade)	Thomas (8)
2019	N/A	Stephens (5, trade)
2020	Perkins (8), Perkins (9), Reid (10)	Phillips (3), Powell (13)
2021	Hobbs (13)	Horne Francis (1)
2022	Tsatas (5)	Sheezel (3), Wardlaw (4)
2023	Caddy (10)	McKercher (2), Duursma (4), Goad (20)
2024	Kako (13)	O'Sullivan (2), Whitlock (27)

I expected them to pass us, no doubt, but they've barely gotten anything from the 6 players they've taken in the top 4 since the commencement of their latest rebuild and already passed us. Sheezel has been very good by any measure (as in not just for a kid). McKercher has been AFL standard and will be much more but that's it.

Phillips is worse than players we take in the top 10. Wardlaw and Duursma haven't played yet this season. Goad hasn't debuted and as a ruck is years off.

 

[katana]

2. two-way ground defence and work ethic (which has been a problem for 22 or the last 24 seasons);

2014 and what's the other?

 

[BrunoV]

2014 and what's the other?

I was thinking 2013 and 2014 but I wouldn't die on any hill.

 

[byronstjames]

Why aren't people talking about the lack of effort?

95% of the team will not work for the ball. They are still around packs, they do not run past as an option, they do not spread defensively or offensively, they rarely make space from their opponent.
Most shirk any contact
If you are at the game it is glaringly obvious how little effort players put in.

None of the analysis or gameplan matters when your players literally jog around at 50% when defending. Watching us just let guys run on to easy uncontested marks when their opponent is always 5-10m behind and not even trying to contest is crazy.

Teams like Hawthorn and North Melbourne, even from their lowest tier players, give it their all because that's the expectation of an AFL footballer playing at those clubs. We seem to believe that it is conditional and until it isn't we're always going to be mediocre. If Scott isn't the sort of coach that is going to fix that then we need to move on.

 

[cAsEy_18]

Why aren't people talking about the lack of effort?

95% of the team will not work for the ball. They are still around packs, they do not run past as an option, they do not spread defensively or offensively, they rarely make space from their opponent.
Most shirk any contact
If you are at the game it is glaringly obvious how little effort players put in.

None of the analysis or gameplan matters when your players literally jog around at 50% when defending. Watching us just let guys run on to easy uncontested marks when their opponent is always 5-10m behind and not even trying to contest is crazy.

Teams like Hawthorn and North Melbourne, even from their lowest tier players, give it their all because that's the expectation of an AFL footballer playing at those clubs. We seem to believe that it is conditional and until it isn't we're always going to be mediocre. If Scott isn't the sort of coach that is going to fix that then we need to move on.

I take it you haven’t been reading haha?

A lot of criticism for the lack of effort.

But also (and this has been said a few times) the overall IQ of our team is shocking.

For instance, we might have guys run back but then plug absolutely illogical holes.
Or we might have 2-3 guys determined to put pressure on…so they all go at the guy with the ball, who gets rid of it and then we are screwed numbers wise while they’re away running.

The lack of effort is certainly a discussion point. But it’s a common saying that it is a lot more exhausting game chasing all day. We give up big leads by stupid play and very unskilled ball movement leading to turnovers. Then when the margin is big enough, we just give up.

 

[byronstjames]

I take it you haven’t been reading haha?

A lot of criticism for the lack of effort.

But also (and this has been said a few times) the overall IQ of our team is shocking.

For instance, we might have guys run back but then plug absolutely illogical holes.
Or we might have 2-3 guys determined to put pressure on…so they all go at the guy with the ball, who gets rid of it and then we are screwed numbers wise while they’re away running.

The lack of effort is certainly a discussion point. But it’s a common saying that it is a lot more exhausting game chasing all day. We give up big leads by stupid play and very unskilled ball movement leading to turnovers. Then when the margin is big enough, we just give up.

I hear you, however we weren't defending from the opening bounce yesterday and this has been a common theme for years, where we let all teams casually walk it out of defence with next to no pressure, while fighting tooth and nail to get it into our forward line.

You're right in regards to footy IQ, and this is another issue we've had for years. Players just ball chase, leaving their man and leaving numbers in front of the ball for the opposition to just get space and go. They refuse to put themselves in smart areas and are often just clumped together, not moving. You do not see this with any other team. I refuse to believe that every single footballer we've recruited has no footy IQ, but something definitely happens when they get to our club because they quickly lose any sense of knowing the basics of Australian Rules.

We're in big trouble and until we get someone at the club that is going to accept no compromise then we aren't turning our fortunes around any time soon.

 

[Yoda_]

Im more than happy to pile on our meek effort defensively but some props to a team who looks primed at a top 4 tilt should be given too.

Played Hawks (premiership favourites to some) and Adelaide (look worthy of a top 4 billing) in the opening two weeks with another perennial finalist on Thursday night incoming (Portt Adelaide)


Effort was poor but Adelaide were pretty bloody good too

 

[Tas]

Essendon

North___

2015

Parish (5), Francis (6), Gresham (18, trade) McKay (21, trade)

McKay (21) ______________________________

2016	McGrath (1)	Logue (8, trade), Simpkin (12)
2017	N/A	LDU (4)
2018	Caldwell (11, trade), Duursma (18, trade)	Thomas (8)
2019	N/A	Stephens (5, trade)
2020	Perkins (8), Perkins (9), Reid (10)	Phillips (3), Powell (13)
2021	Hobbs (13)	Horne Francis (1)
2022	Tsatas (5)	Sheezel (3), Wardlaw (4)
2023	Caddy (10)	McKercher (2), Duursma (4), Goad (20)
2024	Kako (13)	O'Sullivan (2), Whitlock (27)

I expected them to pass us, no doubt, but they've barely gotten anything from the 6 players they've taken in the top 4 since the commencement of their latest rebuild and already passed us. Sheezel has been very good by any measure (as in not just for a kid). McKercher has been AFL standard and will be much more but that's it.

Phillips is worse than players we take in the top 10. Wardlaw and Duursma haven't played yet this season. Goad hasn't debuted and as a ruck is years off.

It is only two rounds in, I wouldn't get too carried away with a couple of early games. Melbourne were also pretty bad, so it will be interesting to see how we go against Crows in Adelaide, I am expecting us to lose that.

What makes you good now is what kind of players you have that are ready now, we just haven't had the mature bodied inside mids that you need and we have struggled most against the teams that have. That was poor list management, especially when you pass on good quality performers through the MSD and clubs like Hawks take them and it gives them that stability in the midfield.

We have a lot of depth of talent, especially in the midfield, but it hasn't always complimented each other, it was my main issue when we drafted JHF and when we chased Reid, you need the right type of midfield to get the most out of them. Richmond were garbage even when they had Dusty and he was playing well, it wasn't until they brought in Presta and changed the way they played to get the most out of him that they started to win flags.

We still don't have any inside midfielders outside of Wardlaw, I think we have held up okay in the middle without him so far this season with the significant improvement of Powell this year. We've also transitioned McKercher into the middle this year and have been using Sheezel a bit less in the middle, he was well below his best against Melbourne but i guess when 28 disposals is a bad game then it is a pretty high standard for bad games.

I think we are still in transition in the midfield. Xerri has held down the ruck really well since we let Goldy go. We played Greenwood in the vfl last year and let him go. Let go of players going nowhere like Stephenson and Taylor. Shiels also retired and Tucker has gone from starting 18 to a bench player so the vast majority of the midfield is now the group we hope goes forward now. We have pushed Simpkin out of the midfield, he now starts as a half forward and rotates a bit in the middle so the core group is now LDU, Wardlaw, McKercher, Sheezel, O'Sullivan, Scott and Phillips when available and I think the expectation is that Duursma will rotate between half-forward and midfield in the future.

Phillips has had a lot of setbacks, including the lack of development from his Covid years, most of the Vic players from that year have had similar issues, I don't think he will reach a spectacular high in his career, but I felt he was an important player in the defensive role he played against Melbourne and I hope we retain him.

I just feel our midfield group atm still lacks the physical strength to hold up against the bigger bodied midfields and we lost six or so winnable games last year because of it, that will be a big test for us this year, I just feel our recruitment/trading and development hasn't been great and it is why we just have been slow to get up to speed. There is no fast way to accelerate waiting for 18 year olds to hit 50-100 games and get to 23ish years of age. I think Hawks have done much better with the hands they had and got much better value out of the MSD and later round picks, were able to assemble a midfield that was physically ready much faster and have benefitted from it.

Being pathetic for many years has given us the chance to accumulate a fair bit of talent but you have to stop being pathetic if you want to achieve anything with them.

 

[Lore]

It is only two rounds in, I wouldn't get too carried away with a couple of early games. Melbourne were also pretty bad, so it will be interesting to see how we go against Crows in Adelaide, I am expecting us to lose that.

What makes you good now is what kind of players you have that are ready now, we just haven't had the mature bodied inside mids that you need and we have struggled most against the teams that have. That was poor list management, especially when you pass on good quality performers through the MSD and clubs like Hawks take them and it gives them that stability in the midfield.

We have a lot of depth of talent, especially in the midfield, but it hasn't always complimented each other, it was my main issue when we drafted JHF and when we chased Reid, you need the right type of midfield to get the most out of them. Richmond were garbage even when they had Dusty and he was playing well, it wasn't until they brought in Presta and changed the way they played to get the most out of him that they started to win flags.

We still don't have any inside midfielders outside of Wardlaw, I think we have held up okay in the middle without him so far this season with the significant improvement of Powell this year. We've also transitioned McKercher into the middle this year and have been using Sheezel a bit less in the middle, he was well below his best against Melbourne but i guess when 28 disposals is a bad game then it is a pretty high standard for bad games.

I think we are still in transition in the midfield. Xerri has held down the ruck really well since we let Goldy go. We played Greenwood in the vfl last year and let him go. Let go of players going nowhere like Stephenson and Taylor. Shiels also retired and Tucker has gone from starting 18 to a bench player so the vast majority of the midfield is now the group we hope goes forward now. We have pushed Simpkin out of the midfield, he now starts as a half forward and rotates a bit in the middle so the core group is now LDU, Wardlaw, McKercher, Sheezel, O'Sullivan, Scott and Phillips when available and I think the expectation is that Duursma will rotate between half-forward and midfield in the future.

Phillips has had a lot of setbacks, including the lack of development from his Covid years, most of the Vic players from that year have had similar issues, I don't think he will reach a spectacular high in his career, but I felt he was an important player in the defensive role he played against Melbourne and I hope we retain him.

I just feel our midfield group atm still lacks the physical strength to hold up against the bigger bodied midfields and we lost six or so winnable games last year because of it, that will be a big test for us this year, I just feel our recruitment/trading and development hasn't been great and it is why we just have been slow to get up to speed. There is no fast way to accelerate waiting for 18 year olds to hit 50-100 games and get to 23ish years of age. I think Hawks have done much better with the hands they had and got much better value out of the MSD and later round picks, were able to assemble a midfield that was physically ready much faster and have benefitted from it.

Being pathetic for many years has given us the chance to accumulate a fair bit of talent but you have to stop being pathetic if you want to achieve anything with them.

If you’re referring to Newcombe, no one else was realistically getting him anyway so don’t sweat it.

It’s also a long held industry belief that you build your spine first coz they take longer to develop. Some clubs have done it the other way, i.e., built the engine first and then traded for the wheels, but it’s expensive and you have to be able to attract them to the club in the first instant.

 

[jmoo wan]

It’s also a long held industry belief that you build your spine first

hey- that’s Sheedy talk!!!

LETS GET HER!!!!

 

[Tas]

If you’re referring to Newcombe, no one else was realistically getting him anyway so don’t sweat it.

Yeah, but there are other VFL and state league players who are mature and have been pretty good, granted most wouldn't transition well to the AFL, if you haven't had an inside midfield with a solid body since Cunnington and you aren't interested in investing in bigger bodied draftees then it is better to put some of the mature aged ones in the state leagues and try some different options instead of putting on some slow/one-paced flanker that has no x-factor. We just put a lot of people on the list that didn't look like going anywhere from day one and just completely neglected some major deficiencies.

In the last couple of years we have put on a number of brand X KPP like Pink, Teakle, Finnbar, etc and got someone like Darling who is on the way out, none of these players are going to hold up a premiership cup but they are at least putting up a contest, it has made a big difference. We needed to do a lot more and a lot earlier in most areas of the field. I have no issue getting rid of trash that are afraid of giving a contest, you can watch a player for a few games and have a pretty good idea who is going to be physical and give you a contest.

We didn't get to the position we had by accident. You need to be bad at the basics for some time to be completely uncompetitive as we were for far too long.

It’s also a long held industry belief that you build your spine first coz they take longer to develop. Some clubs have done it the other way, i.e., built the engine first and then traded for the wheels, but it’s expensive and you have to be able to attract them to the club in the first instant.

Regardless which route you go, I think you want to be at least somewhat competitive, regardless if you go with mids/running players or KPP, you should still plan to have the players around to support the young kids you are recruiting.

I'd rather lose more games being competitive every week and having players that will go in hard, pressure, tackle and make the opposition work hard to get a win than have a handful of surprise wins and the rest getting annihilated where there is no pressure and a lack of tackling. You want to condition players to the way you want them to play from the word go than hope they change radically years after not playing footy that will win you a flag... in my opinion at least.