Discussion Random Discussion

[gringo2011]

i would like to strive to be constantly improving the way of life for everyone in this country ... that mentality is accepting the below average life because its better than the poor life of other places ...
there are lots of things to be grateful for in this country but damn theres still a lot that can be done to make it better for more than just the upper class

Yeah I reckon that will be the way this era is judged in the future, a kind of me first and **** everyone else attitude that made the '80s look soft. There is no hand out for a mate attitude any more. People see anyone not doing well as a lazy campaigner and deserving of their position.....until it happens to them. We are lucky compare to most places but we have some really bad systems creeping in. We sell of utilities and public land at stupidly low prices and hand it out as political pork barrelling or tax cuts that aren't sustainable. We used to be able to pay for stuff we needed when corporations and the wealthy paid their way.

 

[joop]

Lol, there are many forms of slavery my friend.

Our freedom only extends to to how far the machine wants you to be.

Slave to laws. Slave to debt. Slave to big pharma... The list goes on.

So show me a proven society that works better than socialism.

 

[VDS66]

Who is talking about socialism as the answer?

I wouldn't live in any other country, but that doesn't mean its perfect, cant improve or that we can afford to let it slip.

Have a look at Scandinavian countries if you want to answer your own question.

The laws of so called freedom are created by puppet politicians who enact the will of their masters.

Corporate tax cuts are the next nail in the coffin for the average punter.

Complacency is killing this country slowly but surely.

So show me a proven society that works better than socialism.

 

[VDS66]

Well, I don’t necessarily agree or disagree. I will say the above examples are all a choice though. Not sure too many actual slaves have that right.

Are they really a choice?

Also depends on how you define slavery.

Can you buy a home without borrowing? If no, you're a slave to the bank.

If yes, then you need to work hard so you're a slave to the boss.

Can you go and set up home anywhere?

No.

If you get cancer, can you readily access free treatment? Slave to the pharma that creates scarcity for profit sake.

So I guess you can choose your slavery. What am awesome freedom that is.

 

[joop]

Who is talking about socialism as the answer?

I wouldn't live in any other country, but that doesn't mean its perfect, cant improve or that we can afford to let it slip.

Have a look at Scandinavian countries if you want to answer your own question.

The laws of so called freedom are created by puppet politicians who enact the will of their masters.

Corporate tax cuts are the next nail in the coffin for the average punter.

Complacency is killing this country slowly but surely.

I never said we live in the perfect country. But thank you for the generic answers.

 

[joop]

Are they really a choice?

Also depends on how you define slavery.

Can you buy a home without borrowing? If no, you're a slave to the bank.

If yes, then you need to work hard so you're a slave to the boss.

Can you go and set up home anywhere?

No.

If you get cancer, can you readily access free treatment? Slave to the pharma that creates scarcity for profit sake.

So I guess you can choose your slavery. What am awesome freedom that is.

Haha so by choosing to get cancer treatment and not die you are then a slave?? Hahahaha!!
Well guess what, I’m happy to not die, get education, drink water, have health care, live in a house if that makes me a slave. Slave me up everyday of the week!!!

 

[VDS66]

Yeah I reckon that will be the way this era is judged in the future, a kind of me first and **** everyone else attitude that made the '80s look soft. There is no hand out for a mate attitude any more. People see anyone not doing well as a lazy campaigner and deserving of their position.....until it happens to them. We are lucky compare to most places but we have some really bad systems creeping in. We sell of utilities and public land at stupidly low prices and hand it out as political pork barrelling or tax cuts that aren't sustainable. We used to be able to pay for stuff we needed when corporations and the wealthy paid their way.

This is so true and why I have a deep respect for you and Trav.

Any society that measures it's success based on individual accumulation and greed is doomed.

This comes from the top and who is actually pulling the Strings.

Politics of fear and division is deliberate as it puts people against each other and stops them getting organises on a political level.

All these royal commissions, all these laws, all this dog whistling and attacks on groups such as GetUp are all about the right protecting it's born to rule status.

It will come to a point where we will have to chose between a fragmented society with inequality due to personal aspiration and corporate greed or a fairer and just society.

I know which one I want my kids to grow up in...

 

[joop]

This is so true and why I have a deep respect for you and Trav.

Any society that measures it's success based on individual accumulation and greed is doomed.

This comes from the top and who is actually pulling the Strings.

Politics of fear and division is deliberate as it puts people against each other and stops them getting organises on a political level.

All these royal commissions, all these laws, all this dog whistling and attacks on groups such as GetUp are all about the right protecting it's born to rule status.

It will come to a point where we will have to chose between a fragmented society with inequality due to personal aspiration and corporate greed or a fairer and just society.

I know which one I want my kids to grow up in...

So what’s your solution?

 

[VDS66]

Haha so by choosing to get cancer treatment and not die you are then a slave?? Hahahaha!!
Well guess what, I’m happy to not die, get education, drink water, have health care, live in a house if that makes me a slave. Slave me up everyday of the week!!!

Once again you are arguing with emotion and not logic. So let's end the conversation.

Do you have any clue as to how big pharmacy works? They could make pretty much all of their cures available for pennies, but have a guess why they don't?

I say to you as I did to the other poster, it comes down to how you interpret slavery.

Anyways let's move on.

 

[VDS66]

So what’s your solution?

Real democracy for starters.

 

[joop]

Once again you are arguing with emotion and not logic. So let's end the conversation.

Do you have any clue as to how big pharmacy works? They could make pretty much all of their cures available for pennies, but have a guess why they don't?

I say to you as I did to the other poster, it comes down to how you interpret slavery.

Anyways let's move on.

Yeh, and you interpret slavery the same way I interpret privilege.

Happy to move on.

 

[Gangnam Saint]

So show me a proven society that works better than socialism.

Socialism seems to be working out for Venezuela. If you ignore the fact that the people are so hungry they are eating the animals from the zoo, things are going swimmingly.

 

[sunny3193]

Socialism seems to be working out for Venezuela. If you ignore the fact that the people are so hungry they are eating the animals from the zoo, things are going swimmingly.

You use the word “socialism” in the same context Republicans use to describe the Affordable Care Act.
Generic simplicity?
I think so.
Socialism is not to blame for Venezuela’s problems.
A corrupt autocracy might be the cause.
And as we well know, both corruption and autocrats come in many colours.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Yeah that's probably fair, he's got some points that make sense. It's definitely a confusing time in history and the way so many people have become almost parasitic drains on the finances of the worlds economies and are celebrated for it makes people distrustful. Politicians are seen as corporate enablers on both sides it seems. Companies are using globalisation as a way of avoiding paying high wages to workers while most are taking every opportunity to avoid paying taxes. The system has always had parasites but now any large company expects to have their turn on the tit and that leaves little for services.

I think a lot of people on both sides think the system is starting to show stress fractures and the future looks uncertain but both sides blame different things. The whole pro masculinity thing is a symptom of the general feeling of hopelessness and lack of control.

Agree with all you say here and it is sort of the point I am making regarding Peterson. I think that the fact that a figure like him is obviously gaining such traction shows how out of control things are getting with the culture wars.

I might be wrong and he turns out to be some modern-day nazi Jung but I really don't think so. The truth of it, that he is just a clinical psychologist - with classical liberal views - with a special interest in authoritarian regimes who happened to be smart enough to put content on Youtube and have as a over-ruling principal to always "tell the truth" is fairly banal really. That he has become such a popular and polarizing figure is alarming, but at the same time, encouraging to me. It shows how desperately people feel deep inside that they are being lied to constantly and how much they are yearning for change and wanting to strike back. You simply can't lie forever and not suffer consequences.

Where I probably differ from some is that I see lying coming from all sides of politics for different reasons. The traditional right and far-right are doing the same old stuff with new technology. The traditional left is taking the "we do things for good" and ramping it up to the max and being very, very clever at how they isolate critics in the use of social media. A lot of us are feeling pretty hopeless in the middle looking at both sides like terrified children when their parents are fighting and I think we have good reason to be scared.

 

[gringo2011]

Agree with all you say here and it is sort of the point I am making regarding Peterson. I think that the fact that a figure like him is obviously gaining such traction shows how out of control things are getting with the culture wars.

I might be wrong and he turns out to be some modern-day nazi Jung but I really don't think so. The truth of it, that he is just a clinical psychologist - with classical liberal views - with a special interest in authoritarian regimes who happened to be smart enough to put content on Youtube and have as a over-ruling principal to always "tell the truth". That he has become such a popular and polarizing figure is alarming, but at the same time, encouraging to me. It shows how desperately people feel deep inside that they are being lied to constantly and how much they are yearning for change and wanting to strike back. You simply can't lie forever and not suffer consequences.

Where I probably differ from some is that I see lying coming from all sides of politics for different reasons. The traditional right and far-right are doing the same old stuff with new technology. The traditional left is taking the "we do things for good" and ramping it up to the max and being very, very clever at how they isolate critics in the use of social media. A lot of us are feeling pretty hopeless in the middle looking at both sides like terrified children when their parents are fighting and I think we have good reason to be scared.

I think both sides have reinforcement of ideas being fed to them with algorithms. It's amazing the shit that gets pushed on Facebook, so much is just unfounded nonsense and some just incredibly cynical on both sides. If you have an obvious "side" they will constantly feed you more information that justifies in your mind your position. There is very little grey any more. Everything is completely over stated and doesn't offer a balance point for reference. That's why I'm happy to watch Peterson even if I find him challenging and a bit off.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Yeah I reckon that will be the way this era is judged in the future, a kind of me first and **** everyone else attitude that made the '80s look soft. There is no hand out for a mate attitude any more. People see anyone not doing well as a lazy campaigner and deserving of their position.....until it happens to them. We are lucky compare to most places but we have some really bad systems creeping in. We sell of utilities and public land at stupidly low prices and hand it out as political pork barrelling or tax cuts that aren't sustainable. We used to be able to pay for stuff we needed when corporations and the wealthy paid their way.

i think the next generation have us pointed in the right direction provided they dont get disenchanted by the older generation...
we see examples of the next generation in the face of everything directing them to **** everyone else mentality push back against it , last christmas i would say 80% of the volunteers handing out meals to the needy were in the GenY demographic , recently i witnessed a stream of genX and baby boomers walk past a lady struggling in a car park with an out of control trolly and baby in hand it took 3 boys riding skateboards to notice and go to her aid ... my own nephew got an award last week for standing up to a bully who was picking on a kid at his school... the random acts of kindness may not be everywhere but they are there and for the most part its the next generation leading the way ... the task is for us in this generation to not stifle their possitive pasion with our own insecure negativity

 

[Gangnam Saint]

You use the word “socialism” in the same context Republicans use to describe the Affordable Care Act.
Generic simplicity?
I think so.
Socialism is not to blame for Venezuela’s problems.
A corrupt autocracy might be the cause.
And as we well know, both corruption and autocrats come in many colours.

When you nationalise assets and resources and severely limit private ownership, mass starvation happen frequently.
Yes there's corruption in all systems but despotism is particularly drawn towards this type of centralised system which is more easily co-opted.
So simplified, true but also true in a general sense.

People who advocate socialism always believe it's going to be different in their form or structure but it is invariably the same result.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is not a real recipe for success in my view.

 

[VDS66]

When you nationalise assets and resources and severely limit private ownership, mass starvation happen frequently.
Yes there's corruption in all systems but despotism is particularly drawn towards this type of centralised system which is more easily co-opted.
So simplified, true but also true in a general sense.

People who advocate socialism always believe it's going to be different in their form or structure but it is invariably the same result.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is not a real recipe for success in my view.

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Nationalise essential services and leave the markets to the rest.

Ironically if you look at the history of the so called free market society - USA, it was the tax payer that paid for the roads and the infrastructure... Not the entrepreneurs.

As I said before, the solution lies in a combination of both systems.

I am self made and egalitarian. I also have a strong senseof social justice.

Entrenched inequality is the tipping point.

If you look through history, the despots have filled a void when there was poverty and suffering.

A cohesive society where everyone has a decent life nullifies these vacuums.

I believe that unfettered capitalism as opposed to conscious capitalism has failed.

Take the greed put of it and replace it with a conscience whereby wealth creation has to be to the betterment of society, and you are half way to solving it.

 

[gringo2011]

When you nationalise assets and resources and severely limit private ownership, mass starvation happen frequently.
Yes there's corruption in all systems but despotism is particularly drawn towards this type of centralised system which is more easily co-opted.
So simplified, true but also true in a general sense.

People who advocate socialism always believe it's going to be different in their form or structure but it is invariably the same result.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is not a real recipe for success in my view.

Post depression we had nationalised utilities and never starved. Hard core communism with financial sanctions from the rest of the world caused catastrophic hardship. Soft socialism is what we had until the 90s and it worked well. The idea that companies make stuff cheaper and more efficient is a lie and will end the same way as people can't afford to pay utility bills when they don't have incomes high enough to pay them. Communism fried in the way it was delivered but neo liberalism is on it's way to the same result ATM.

 

[gringo2011]

i think the next generation have us pointed in the right direction provided they dont get disenchanted by the older generation...
we see examples of the next generation in the face of everything directing them to **** everyone else mentality push back against it , last christmas i would say 80% of the volunteers handing out meals to the needy were in the GenY demographic , recently i witnessed a stream of genX and baby boomers walk past a lady struggling in a car park with an out of control trolly and baby in hand it took 3 boys riding skateboards to notice and go to her aid ... my own nephew got an award last week for standing up to a bully who was picking on a kid at his school... the random acts of kindness may not be everywhere but they are there and for the most part its the next generation leading the way ... the task is for us in this generation to not stifle their possitive pasion with our own insecure negativity

Most people are ****ed, I had a girl come in the other day who was obviously suffering from some kind of brain injury, she'd been into several businesses and no one would help her. She was staying with her family in Albert Park at a hotel, had got the wrong bus and got lost in St Kilda. She didn't know what her hotel was called. It took 2 minutes to show her google images of albert park hotels until she recognised hers, I called her a cab and she was off. Why the other %$#@ didn't do that for her is unbelievable. She even had her own money for the cab, it wasn't hard. People are just self absorbed shits. It makes you actually feel good to do that stuff.

 

[VDS66]

Post depression we had nationalised utilities and never starved. Hard core communism with financial sanctions from the rest of the world caused catastrophic hardship. Soft socialism is what we had until the 90s and it worked well. The idea that companies make stuff cheaper and more efficient is a lie and will end the same way as people can't afford to pay utility bills when they don't have incomes high enough to pay them. Communism fried in the way it was delivered but neo liberalism is on it's way to the same result ATM.

Very well said.

I think many people are comfortable with it because we have gone 27 years without a recession, avoided the GFC and we feel wealthy because of over inflated property values fueled by cheap debt.

It will end in tears. The amount of personal / private debt is obscene.

All it takes is a 1% increase and watchbit tumble.

I think in these discussions, our views are skewed by our own position in life.

If you're doing OK, you'll defend the status quo.

What disturbs me is what we don't see... The long term unemployed, the under employed etc.

Ask them what they think of free markets. The only trickle down they experience is when the pollies piss on them.

If we are doing so well, why are the Salvos at breaking point with the number of working families seeking food?

 

[VDS66]

Most people are ******, I had a girl come in the other day who was obviously suffering from some kind of brain injury, she'd been into several businesses and no one would help her. She was staying with her family in Albert Park at a hotel, had got the wrong bus and got lost in St Kilda. She didn't know what her hotel was called. It took 2 minutes to show her google images of albert park hotels until she recognised hers, I called her a cab and she was off. Why the other %$#@ didn't do that for her is unbelievable. She even had her own money for the cab, it wasn't hard. People are just self absorbed shits. It makes you actually feel good to do that stuff.

You're a good soul mate.

One random act of kindness per day and you can change the world.

 

[gringo2011]

You're a good soul mate.

One random act of kindness per day and you can change the world.

It seriously makes you feel good to do it. She went from distraught to happy and I was feeling like Ghandi or something after it. If it was my kids lost somewhere I'd hope someone would do the same. I just don't get how people see someone is really upset and don't do anything to help. It's used to be normal.

My grandfather was always big on morality and lived by the idea that you do what you know is right. My grandma tells this story about after the war his cattle got out of his farm and ended up out on the road, the neighbour sent the council out and got all his cattle impounded and he had to spend the last of the money he had in the bank to get them out. He saw a few months later that the guys cattle had got out on the same road so he got on his horse rounded them up and re -penned them in the guys paddock. Never told the guy but just knew it was the right thing to do. She thought he was being a soft **** but later realised he was just rising above the petty. It's a good way to live if you can do it.

 

[Yawkey way]

It seriously makes you feel good to do it. She went from distraught to happy and I was feeling like Ghandi or something after it. If it was my kids lost somewhere I'd hope someone would do the same. I just don't get how people see someone is really upset and don't do anything to help. It's used to be normal.

My grandfather was always big on morality and lived by the idea that you do what you know is right. My grandma tells this story about after the war his cattle got out of his farm and ended up out on the road, the neighbour sent the council out and got all his cattle impounded and he had to spend the last of the money he had in the bank to get them out. He saw a few months later that the guys cattle had got out on the same road so he got on his horse rounded them up and re -penned them in the guys paddock. Never told the guy but just knew it was the right thing to do. She thought he was being a soft **** but later realised he was just rising above the petty. It's a good way to live if you can do it.

Well done gringo and yes your right it was once normal.

This change has happened over time but has definitely gathered pace the last ten years, I think there are many contributing factors but once people stop caring about anyone but themselves we are in big trouble. You can even feel the tension and **** you attitude on the roads.

This discussion that is going on at present is something I have a keen interest in, what I find facsinating talking to people is that the frustration levels of many are through the roof but they find it hard to identify the root cause. This just leaves them open to even more manipulation from the left or the right or from any other ratbag with a theory.

The new media sees people bombarded 24/7 with information and opinion, so much of it is trolling or outright lies but many people don't have the time or inclination to fact check so quite a lot of it finds fertile ground in the minds of people when it shouldn't.

I have held back joining in because I want to unleash an epic rant, I can't pick up a paper without wanting to rip it apart or turn on the tv without wanting to kick it in, I am very selective about what I watch. The age for example was once a respected left leaning newspaper, now it's just an absolute rag.

Now here is an interesting situation I am against censorship of the media and with Facebook, Twitter etc it's damn near impossible to police anyway so what do we do?

You also mentioned that an increasing number of young educated people don't vote conservative, could that be as a result of the the left having virtual control of schools and universities?. My kids and many others know better than to express their true opinions in many classes, this I believe flows through into daily life. Who wants to be called a racist, misogynist, fascist or worse simply for questioning a point of view not even necessarily disagreeing with it.

I don't have all the answers but I think we are very lucky to be living in Australia, as the storm clouds gather this is as good a place as any IMHO to ride it out.

Until then if more people follow your lead we will be a better place for it, bye the way I think there are a lot of good people on here and I really enjoy the exchange of ideas and opinions.

PS. Thank god for sport.

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

Most people are ******, I had a girl come in the other day who was obviously suffering from some kind of brain injury, she'd been into several businesses and no one would help her. She was staying with her family in Albert Park at a hotel, had got the wrong bus and got lost in St Kilda. She didn't know what her hotel was called. It took 2 minutes to show her google images of albert park hotels until she recognised hers, I called her a cab and she was off. Why the other %$#@ didn't do that for her is unbelievable. She even had her own money for the cab, it wasn't hard. People are just self absorbed shits. It makes you actually feel good to do that stuff.

i think fear has a lot to do with it as well , that fear of if i engage with that person are they going to turn around and attack... the thing is that fear for the most part is irrational i see it all the time on facebook and in the media the fear mongering of the masses every time you see that stupid meme about inverting your pin number at an atm to alert the cops if you are being mugged - never mind its compleatly false and does nothing but the idea that someone mugging you is so common place that banks put in this safe guard keeps spreading that fear ... people dont trust people i once offered to help a person broken down on the side of the road and they locked their car door on me..
for the most part i try to refuse the urge to give in to fear , it drives my wife nuts butim the guy that will pull over to help out , im the guy that will reach that item on the top shelf for the person that cant reach , im the person who will say "nah you were next in line" even though they werent .. maybe that will backfire on me and on day i will help the wrong person but in life helping make you happy and theres enough miserable things in life so if you have the chance to make yourself happy heck why not