Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

View attachment 1769742

Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[tastiger]

For indigenous people today I bet they're mourning. Australia basically said a big up yours to them.

I voted no and I'm not afraid to admit it. I want a fair go for all and don't want to see anyone in pain.


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[Aristotle Pickett]

And I really don't need your kind. You're an anti-social pest.

You must of been rapt with the result Stokey.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

I voted no and I'm not afraid to admit it. I want a fair go for all and don't want to see anyone in pain.


On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Why did you vote no then?

 

[Chief]

A lot of people trying to pass blame. Reality is this "voice" was proposed and backed by a bunch of rich, inner city lefties who have no idea what it is like to struggle in a remote indigenous community. That was the first thing that killed it.

Garbage. You see who was promoting the no campaign?

Honestly mate have a look.

Then when people dared to question how it would improve the issues indigenous people believe are unique to them, instead of actually answering the question, all anyone in favour of the voice could say was "you are racist"

More garbage.

When people just repeated the same old talking points without listening to the response, then it became obvious it wasn't about facts or ideas or improving things for anybody. It was obviously something else.

Fill in the blanks there mate.

 

[mcnulty]

So you're suggesting as a clinical psychologist he cant offer advice specifically about personal and character development?

Are you saying that people shouldn't be confident, and assertive? That's what he sells. You go out there in the real world, and work in factories, and industries and you will get destroyed if you're not confident. I see many people in the workplace who can't even handle the most simplest of criticism without losing it.

I'm sorry but the real world is savage and you need to be prepared for it.

heck me…ground breaking stuff

 

[Romeoh1]

Hahahaha, bit dramatic mate. No one has died or anything.

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Yawn and that comment tells me that you sound pretty clueless about our history.
The good guys have lost this battle, but pretty hopeful they will win the war.

 

[Purple7x08_24]

Well okay, but weren’t you saying only educated people will be allowed to vote?

Maybe my words aren't always so eloquent, but I was saying Plato was discussing misinformation and propaganda and he was suggesting only educated people should vote. As I said we to a degree already do that by appointing members. I do agree that there are too many misinformed, perhaps ignorant voters, party line voters, or voters with a personal bias. This is why I think referendums are flawed.

I do agree we could solve these issues by moving to a technocracy through a democratic process which would not require specific advisors.

BTW I'm conflicted: Elspeth in your avatar is stunning but not a fan of her work on 7 at all.

 

[1990crow]

I voted no and I'm not afraid to admit it. I want a fair go for all and don't want to see anyone in pain.


On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah well, thats what you have done.

 

[Gibbke]

Mareeba. Indigenous guys were running the 'No' tent a couple weeks ago. That probably sparked some of the 'yes' campaign organisers up here to go around knocking on doors asking to speak to indigenous people if there were anyone living in the residence etc. They had their yes cars and were going as far out to farm properties as well.

And hostility was from all locals. I personally don't know anyone that voted yes.

Part of the reason might be due to who our Shire Mayor is. She was my high school principal and she was all about pushing opportunities for indigenous students and that's carried to her Mayor role and into the community.

Like I said, reform starts locally and is driven by a voted in government for everyone within that governments jurisdiction.

That's fascinating. Was she Yes or No?

 

[1990crow]

Maybe my words aren't always so eloquent, but I was saying Plato was discussing misinformation and propaganda and he was suggesting only educated people should vote. As I said we to a degree already do that by appointing members. I do agree that there are too many misinformed, perhaps ignorant voters, party line voters, or voters with a personal bias. This is why I think referendums are flawed.

I do agree we could solve these issues by moving to a technocracy through a democratic process which would not require specific advisors.

BTW I'm conflicted: Elspeth in your avatar is stunning but not a fan of her work on 7 at all.

I do agree the general population was not sufficiently intelligent to be a part of this.

 

[tastiger]

Why did you vote no then?

OK I'll list my reasons.
1. It would divide the country
2. Not all the details on what the yes vote would mean we're laid out(Red Flag)
3. It was a waste of money (Advertising) when we are all going through cost of living struggles.
4. The money already allocated should be spent better and not just more throw at the problem.





On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[tastiger]

Yawn and that comment tells me that you sound pretty clueless about our history.
The good guys have lost this battle, but pretty hopeful they will win the war.

What good guys? Are you a vegan too?

On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Piessince06]

Maybe my words aren't always so eloquent, but I was saying Plato was discussing misinformation and propaganda and he was suggesting only educated people should vote. As I said we to a degree already do that by appointing members. I do agree that there are too many misinformed, perhaps ignorant voters, party line voters, or voters with a personal bias. This is why I think referendums are flawed.

I do agree we could solve these issues by moving to a technocracy through a democratic process which would not require specific advisors.

BTW I'm conflicted: Elspeth in your avatar is stunning but not a fan of her work on 7 at all.

To be fair there's alot more that goes into Plato's concept of the educational class ruling. It's from his book titled "The Republic" btw

 

[ElectricG]

Maybe my words aren't always so eloquent, but I was saying Plato was discussing misinformation and propaganda and he was suggesting only educated people should vote. As I said we to a degree already do that by appointing members. I do agree that there are too many misinformed, perhaps ignorant voters, party line voters, or voters with a personal bias. This is why I think referendums are flawed.

I do agree we could solve these issues by moving to a technocracy through a democratic process which would not require specific advisors.

BTW I'm conflicted: Elspeth in your avatar is stunning but not a fan of her work on 7 at all.

Ahhh I don’t really agree but thanks for answering my overly hasty questions

 

[Purple7x08_24]

* me…ground breaking stuff

So why do so many people struggle in tough environments, why does it seem so many people are unable to handle the most minor criticisms.

I'm not perfect, I can always do better, and I learned a lot from his book about how to handle myself in these environments. However I've got people that I work with, someone that I unfortunately have to communicate with and literally every single conversation involves me carefully planning it out, carefully selecting my choice of words, and tone of words precisely and even then it's not enough to keep the peace.

I think it's a bit of balance about how you interact with people. Not every approach is based off JP, and it depends on the situation and the environment.

 

[1990crow]

OK I'll list my reasons.
1. It would divide the country
2. Not all the details on what the yes vote would mean we're laid out(Red Flag)
3. It was a waste of money (Advertising) when we are all going through cost of living struggles.
4. The money already allocated should be spent better and not just more throw at the problem.





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All 4 patently false.

 

[Stokey]

You must of been rapt with the result Stokey.

Why?

 

[Purple7x08_24]

All 4 patently false.

I laughed because this was pretty much what one exit voter said to the media, and it's what guys at work are saying.

 

[eastfreo75]

Indeed.

Plenty of my Facebook feed is filled with people who are saying how ashamed everyone should feel after this vote. Why would anyone want to come out as a No voter? Would be labelled racist, vile, and be heaped with shame. Plenty of hate coming from that side if you ask me.

Such a simplistic view, it infuriates me.

Common misconceptions:

• Voting No is a rejection of Indigenous people.
• Voting No means you don't want Indigenous people to be heard.
• Voting No makes you a racist.
• Voting No means you don't want Indigenous people recognised in the constitution.

They simply worded it incorrectly, trying to make the Voice and Recognition like 'Love and Marriage' (you can't have one without the other)
The lack of information on the who what when where how of the Voice is the reason it failed. I tried to listen, to research, and was open. They failed to convince me. But I guess that makes me 'a racist'. Never mind the fact that it would further divide the population by race...in the constitution.

Yes and No.

Some people do reject first nations, maybe not you.

Some don't want to listen to "them", most people either think they are already have a voice or they are being listen to too much. Not your point but you are just one person.

Voting no doesn't make you racists, but all racists voted no.

Majority are ok with Aboriginal people being re-cognized.

I would say that most people like yourself don't like uncertainty. The reason for no detail about the structure of Voice was because it would have been up to the Parliament to create, and change it over time.

My question is to you, why would you want a structure that was set in cement and couldn't be changed or adjusted?

 

[ElectricG]

All 4 patently false.

They’re just ones you disagree with. The fact that your side has counter arguments doesn’t render them false.

 

[Purple7x08_24]

They’re just ones you disagree with. The fact that your side has counter arguments doesn’t render them false.

Well how exactly is it divisive? I keep hearing this but how? How does it divide us exactly?

vast swaths of people on BF are bitching about Welcome to Country intros at AFL games, vast numbers of people boo indigenous AFL players for no justifiable reason. Indigenous jerseys, (Pride too)

Indigenous names for AFL clubs

Let's talk about the divide shall we. or how threatened people are about inclusiveness

 

[Carringbush2010]

Lol- give it a spell- you are really making a meal of something pretty simple. Get over it dude.

Meh, I'm not the one who needs to get over anything.

You can continue your unwarranted outrage if you wish.

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

OK I'll list my reasons.
1. It would divide the country
2. Not all the details on what the yes vote would mean we're laid out(Red Flag)
3. It was a waste of money (Advertising) when we are all going through cost of living struggles.
4. The money already allocated should be spent better and not just more throw at the problem.





On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

On your points with all due respect:
Point 1/ Utter rubbish, only said by the racist element.
2/ No red flag, it was an advisory body with no legal power to change anything whatsover.
3/ The money was already spent, why would that change your vote, it's a small amount of money to put a 65,000 yo culture in the constitution.
4/ That's the whole point of a Voice.

 

[Gibbke]

I voted no and I'm not afraid to admit it. I want a fair go for all and don't want to see anyone in pain.


On VOG-L09 using BigFooty.com mobile app

Champion, can you see that the fair go doesn't occur if the group in question is "in pain" and is denied the opportunity to express where they think the ailment is?

For 235 years, mainstream governmental Australia has told aborigines what they will do about their problems, and thrown a lot of money at what they think those problems are, effecting a white man's solution - but rarely have they actually asked for the aboriginal viewpoint, and even more rare has been admission of that viewpoint without a ton of party bias either way on it...

This was our chance to enable that pathway in communication, and yes, fair go is what we all want...the first rambling I made on this on Friday alluded to the fact we're mostly not racist and mostly not rich miners with leases under threat (!), but according to the latest poll which finished last night we don't get what we're voting on...you want a red flag, right there is people admitting they're about to decide the futures of other people but not taking the responsibility seriously enough to bother finding out, blindly listening to utter campaigners telling them there's no detail when the detail was the first thing presented...

At the end of the day, we've been asked for help and didn't give it, and it's because we didn't bother to listen. Again. A fair go for all does not mean "be like us"...

 

[ElectricG]

Well how exactly is it divisive? I keep hearing this but how? How does it divide us exactly?

vast swaths of people on BF are bitching about Welcome to Country intros at AFL games, vast numbers of people boo indigenous AFL players for no justifiable reason. Indigenous jerseys, (Pride too)

Indigenous names for AFL clubs

Let's talk about the divide shall we. or how threatened people are about inclusiveness

Well it wasn’t not an argument that was particularly on my radar, but I know the No campaign ran strongly with it.
The idea is that giving a specific race of people particular rights and recognition in the constitution, to the exception of others, amounts to a statement that they have a level of a right to be here that we (people who have arrived since) do not.

It might not be one you agree with, but it is coherent.