Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

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Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[South of the Yarra]

People's memories don't go back 60K years.
Generational trauma doesn't last 60K years.
If you have family i would very much hope they've been spared the pain you've lived through, and when they have children, i'd hope that they can instil the kind of self worth and pride that they deserve.

It is not how inter-generational trauma works. Many people who suffer trauma have fallen into addiction, unemployment, violence, crime, poor health, limited education etc. Their children are spared nothing.

 

[mcnulty]

very wordy way to say "get over it"! why would people be expected to assimilate in a country theyve been in for 60k plus year? what you actually mean is "cede"

I completely agree that indigenous people should not be expected to assimilate. It’s their country.

But if they don’t assimilate how do you close the gap?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It is not how inter-generational trauma works. Many people who suffer trauma have fallen into addiction, unemployment, violence, crime, poor health, limited education etc. Their children are spared nothing.

That's actually how i make it.

But you've suffered trauma , based on what you've said here. But it sounds like you've been strong enough to spare your children, or those that you influence.

The hard part is the children whose parents have not been strong. Its hard to ensure that they don't end up worse off, which then affects their own children.

 

[Crankyhawk]

For a start, many people associated with the yes campaign were happy to wax lyrical about what they consider the motivating factors behind the campaign against the voice. Regardless of the accuracy of those thoughts, it was only going to drive a section of the community away, sections the voice needed to succeed. Elections are about doing what is required to win, especially when all that would have been required in this care (I want to be clear, I mean all they needed to do to address this issue with the campaign, not that this is the only thing that was missing in order to win) was not to use pejorative terms about their opponents. In short, the campaign lacked message discipline.

The government was damned if they did and damned if they didn't with regards to providing detail, specifically what the legislation would look like post a successful referendum. If both doors lead to damnation, provide the detail and then at least you are doing what your opponents do not expect, and the information is there to sell.

So that is two obvious errors IMO. Would it have made the difference in winning? Probably not, considering the lack of bipartisan support which dooms all referenda, but I'm sure the yes vote would have been higher.

Is the gap closed? Do we have indigenous recognition? Those campaigns are ongoing, although I was talking about the almost certain likelihood that political activists will continue to find themselves in political campaigns.

That last point proves the lie in the no case that a “yes vote will increase activism “ implying a no vote will reduce it.

 

[ElectricG]

That last point proves the lie in the no case that a “yes vote will increase activism “ implying a no vote will reduce it.

It’s not a lie.

 

[Crankyhawk]

It’s not a lie.

It is. There is no way activists get less noisy after the no vote.

 

[ElectricG]

It is. There is no way activists get less noisy after the no vote.

What do you mean “there’s no way”? I can easily see how a demonstration of support from the public with an emphatic Yes vote would’ve encouraged activists to ride that wave of momentum. I can also see how a no vote would spur on activism.

It’s your opinion and your prediction. You disagreeing with something doesn’t make it a lie or misinformation.

 

[Crankyhawk]

What do you mean “there’s no way”? I can easily see how a demonstration of support from the public with an emphatic Yes vote would’ve encouraged activists to ride that wave of momentum. I can also see how a no vote would spur on activism.

It’s your opinion and your prediction. You disagreeing with something doesn’t make it a lie or misinformation.

when they make predictions that are errant nonsense (that it will only go one way) it is misinformation.

Your response contains more truth - that it could go either way. Therefore I believe that to state that it would only go one way is misinformation. That is the standard I want to hold political debate to. Not inflammatory misdirection.

Opinions need to be carefully qualified that they are opinions.

 

[ElectricG]

when they make predictions that are errant nonsense it is misinformation.

Your response contains more truth - that it could go either way. Therefore I believe that to state that it would only go one way is misinformation. That is the standard I want to hold political debate to.

It’s not errant nonsense, it’s purely logical to suggest that activists might try to capitalise on the public sentiment of the day or increased influence in parliament. Heck, they’re mad if they don’t. I think the way you and others here define misinformation is based on pure partisanship.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I completely agree that indigenous people should not be expected to assimilate. It’s their country.

But if they don’t assimilate how do you close the gap?

That sounds like an impasse.

I don't think assimilation is a requirement, we have a melting pot of cultures all co existing in a functioning society, probably among the best societies on the planet. The tolerance and sharing is one thing that gives me faith in humanity out in the real world in this country.

If ever there should be an advertisement for cultures co existing Australia should be it.

I think the term you're looking for is letting go of resentment, the gap will never close for those that wish to hold onto resentment.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

That sounds like an impasse.

I don't think assimilation is a requirement, we have a melting pot of cultures all co existing in a functioning society, probably among the best societies on the planet. The tolerance and sharing is one thing that gives me faith in humanity out in the real world in this country.

If ever there should be an advertisement for cultures co existing Australia should be it.

I think the term you're looking for is letting go of resentment, the gap will never close for those that wish to hold onto resentment.

aka "get over it"

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That sounds like an impasse.

I don't think assimilation is a requirement, we have a melting pot of cultures all co existing in a functioning society, probably among the best societies on the planet. The tolerance and sharing is one thing that gives me faith in humanity out in the real world in this country.

If ever there should be an advertisement for cultures co existing Australia should be it.

I think the term you're looking for is letting go of resentment, the gap will never close for those that wish to hold onto resentment.

The culture of colonialism is nothing to write home about.

 

[Carringbush2010]

aka "get over it"

As expected you've gone the simplistic take.

This is at an individual level, for good reason, some Aboriginal people hold resentment, some will hold that forever.

It is not possible to reconcile if one holds resentment.

Not sure how that can be debated.

 

[mcnulty]

That sounds like an impasse.

I don't think assimilation is a requirement, we have a melting pot of cultures all co existing in a functioning society, probably among the best societies on the planet. The tolerance and sharing is one thing that gives me faith in humanity out in the real world in this country.

If ever there should be an advertisement for cultures co existing Australia should be it.

I think the term you're looking for is letting go of resentment, the gap will never close for those that wish to hold onto resentment.

No knock on multiculturalism. I’m all for it. But read the goals to closing the gap. Several of them are dependent on some form of assimilation. Or engagement (if assimilation is too loaded a word) with the prevailing culture. Several waves of immigrants have managed this balance.

Again, there’s no obligation, particularly for First Nations people, but we‘re using metrics that rely to an extent on this engagement.

 

[Carringbush2010]

The culture of colonialism is nothing to write home about.

Clearly I wasn't talking about brits culture.

I'm talking about the very many different cultures that coexist in our society, like the family with the indian background that has his vietnamese background neighbors over for a bbq or a fondue or just for a chat and coffee or whatever.

Happens all the time and everywhere and it's beautiful.

But of course you've used your reply as an opportunity for colonial bashing, fair enough, but clearly that wasn't what I was talking about - even you knew that.

 

[Carringbush2010]

No knock on multiculturalism. I’m all for it. But read the goals to closing the gap. Several of them are dependent on some form of assimilation. Or engagement (if assimilation is too loaded a word) with the prevailing culture. Several waves of immigrants have managed this balance.

Again, there’s no obligation, particularly for First Nations people, but we‘re using metrics that rely to an extent on this engagement.

Assimilation gives the impression 'when in rome do what the romans do' i:e for fnp that sounds like 'do what the rest of us do and not what you do'

Engagement doesn't require dismissing of your own culture, a good example is our society. It requires an acceptance that the prevailing culture exists and sharing your own.

So no I do not accept that leaving your own culture on the door step before you enter is required to be part of this society.

 

[mcnulty]

So no I do not accept that leaving your own culture on the door step before you enter is required to be part of this society.

Not sure why you’re tagging me with this. I’ve never argued anything of the sort.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Not sure why you’re tagging me with this. I’ve never argued anything of the sort.

I'm just replying to your posts and I didn't say you argued 'for' assimilation.

I'm saying that engagement and assimilation are two different things.

 

[spike101]

Clearly I wasn't talking about brits culture.

I'm talking about the very many different cultures that coexist in our society, like the family with the indian background that has his vietnamese background neighbors over for a bbq or a fondue or just for a chat and coffee or whatever.

Happens all the time and everywhere and it's beautiful.

But of course you've used your reply as an opportunity for colonial bashing, fair enough, but clearly that wasn't what I was talking about - even you knew that.

As if your example doesn’t happen all over the world; recently returned from a trip to Italy, Spain, Portugal… different cultures coexist over there just as well or even better than they do here and their public transport is much better too I don’t quite understand why this is a continuing dialogue. The people have voted. Labor should return to the drawing board and put forward a more acceptable model. Not that difficult.

 

[Gethelred]

On that note...

Conversation has become repetitive, and we're kind of rehashing older points. We need to look at things beyond the referendum, and forward either to an uncertain future for First Nations people or towards a continued Embassy at Canberra and Treaty.

We need to move beyond the conversations happening at present. This thread is now closed. Continue the chat here:

Steps towards Treaty: the Uluru Statement and Referendum Council Report

Alright. We've had the Referendum into the Indigenous Voice to Parliament, and the public rejected it. From the notes to the Referendum Committee: The Dialogues discussed who would be the parties to Treaty, as well as the process, content and enforcement questions that pursuing Treaty...

www.bigfooty.com

Best of luck to you all!