Society/Culture Reproductive Rights: Roe vs Wade, abortion, etc

[Ticky009]

Talk is currently being broadcasted live - Inside Australia's biggest abortion provider with Amber Schultz (not for profit)

https://twitter.com/i/spaces/1RDGlggqZogKL

 

[darth_timon]

Some religious fundies believe that children should be forced to give birth, and that this is a kindness. The forced-birth crowd can be truly vile. Is It a Moral Dilemma?

 

[Gruffles]

10-year-old rape victim forced to travel from Ohio to Indiana for abortion

The case of a 10-year-old child rape victim in Ohio who was six weeks pregnant, ineligible for an abortion in her own state, and forced to travel to Indiana for the procedure has spotlighted the shocking impact of the US supreme court ruling on abortion.​

I think what Big_Birdy was referring to was the follow up reporting from the article that you've posted. There has since been some doubt placed on the story as seen here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ory-about-10-year-old-an-abortion-goes-viral/

Note - that article was found from a google search so there could quite possibly be doubt placed on it as well. Also note, I'm not supportive of the scotus latest decision re: Roe vs Wade, but just to make sure that stories like this don't turn into lies trying to push an agenda as that would only hamper the cause. It's important that we cast a critical eye over information both for/against the argument.

 

[Gralin]

I think what Big_Birdy was referring to was the follow up reporting from the article that you've posted. There has since been some doubt placed on the story as seen here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...ory-about-10-year-old-an-abortion-goes-viral/

Note - that article was found from a google search so there could quite possibly be doubt placed on it as well. Also note, I'm not supportive of the scotus latest decision re: Roe vs Wade, but just to make sure that stories like this don't turn into lies trying to push an agenda as that would only hamper the cause. It's important that we cast a critical eye over information both for/against the argument.

You can cast a critical eye over the news article but you're suggesting equal weight should be given to the forced birth position which, yeah nah

 

[cartwright]

I think it is important to note at this point that the story regarding the 10 year old girl appears to be completely made up.

The Ohio Attorney General confirmed that no police department in the state has received a report regarding this, and also confirmed that in the circumstances under Ohio law an abortion would have been legal.

link.

Also, regardless this will happen.

 

[Gruffles]

You can cast a critical eye over the news article but you're suggesting equal weight should be given to the forced birth position which, yeah nah

I'm not suggesting equal weight be given at all. I'm not sure where that was suggested so apologies if this was the interpretation. I'm just saying we should be wary of grabbing every news snippet, however tragic it may be, and rolling on with it without checking it out a bit more first.

Surely you would agree that if a story like this is jumped on by all as important to the cause and it comes out to be fake then that would hamper the cause in the end. Especially when we have the potus jumping on it as well.

Of course, if this horrible story does prove to be factual then it absolutely should show the potential for further tragedy behind the scotus decision.

 

[Gralin]

I'm not suggesting equal weight be given at all. I'm not sure where that was suggested so apologies if this was the interpretation. I'm just saying we should be wary of grabbing every news snippet, however tragic it may be, and rolling on with it without checking it out a bit more first.

Surely you would agree that if a story like this is jumped on by all as important to the cause and it comes out to be fake then that would hamper the cause in the end. Especially when we have the potus jumping on it as well.

Of course, if this horrible story does prove to be factual then it absolutely should show the potential for further tragedy behind the scotus decision.

I'm less worried about the horrible stories than the reality.

Mainly because I think abortion should be a protected right, that the reason is irrelevant, if the person who is pregnant doesn't want to be that is their choice.

So yeah people will focus on these horror stories and they will make the news, but they won't change anything because at the root of this the people doing it do not care at all.

They know these types of situations exist but its only an issue to them publicly if it causes enough anger for change, so they will do their best to downplay/discredit those stories, say that under those circumstances the abortion could have happened (without having to prove that it would) etc

and go back to plotting the next fascist move they are going to make

 

[Pessimistic]

Some religious fundies believe that children should be forced to give birth, and that this is a kindness. The forced-birth crowd can be truly vile. Is It a Moral Dilemma?

They’ve happily got into baby trafficking in the past

 

[Big_Birdy]

link.

Also, regardless this will happen.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2022/07/11/ohio_attorney_general_not_a_whisper_about_10-year-old_denied_abortion_in_states_centralized_law_enforcement_system.html

Well it probably won't happen because a 10 year old taking a baby to term is clearly dangerous, and the exemption would apply in Ohio.

I guess it could happen if a doctor believed there was no exemption in place, which is why the truth is really important, regardless of views of the law in question.

 

[Chief]

I guess it could happen if a doctor believed there was no exemption in place

People have talked about doctors being reluctant to treat women given the risk of prosecution.

These laws do what they are designed to do: force women to give birth.

 

[Gruffles]

I'm less worried about the horrible stories than the reality.

Mainly because I think abortion should be a protected right, that the reason is irrelevant, if the person who is pregnant doesn't want to be that is their choice.

So yeah people will focus on these horror stories and they will make the news, but they won't change anything because at the root of this the people doing it do not care at all.

They know these types of situations exist but its only an issue to them publicly if it causes enough anger for change, so they will do their best to downplay/discredit those stories, say that under those circumstances the abortion could have happened (without having to prove that it would) etc

and go back to plotting the next fascist move they are going to make

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph here, but I think you're also partially missing the point I am making.

The horrible stories being told SHOULD (unfortunately) be the reality of the decision. If they are, then they can be told in an effort to build support for change from the people. We'd absolutely prefer not to hear any horrible stories but, unfortunately, they are the outcome of the horrible decision. Sure, the scotus may know that these types of situations exist and still stand by their decision, but if the overwhelming majority of people (note the word "overwhelming" as there's no doubting that a majority already support abortion rights) support change and stand up for that change then I would be confident that positive change would happen. Yes, horrible decisions have been made but I believe in people power in overturning that. These stories can help sway those who are on the other side or have yet to make a decision. The problem people you speak of can try and downplay/discredit these stories as much as they like, but if the story is undeniable then their actions here look worse to that majority, fueling the anger they are trying to avoid.

If, however, these stories are not the actual reality and are proven so then they actually have the opposite effect mentioned above and, in fact, those on the other side end up being strengthened in their stance and those undecided may be pushed towards the other direction... therefor... no positive change.

So, all I was stating in my original post above (and what I believe Big_Birdy was inferring... for which they got negged for some reason) was that we need to be wary of using a story as an emotive tool. Unfortunately, hearsay rules our modern day media.

Still not sure where any of what I said could be interpreted as suggesting equal weight be given... but, oh well, hopefully this clears it up!

 

[Gruffles]

People have talked about doctors being reluctant to treat women given the risk of prosecution.

These laws do what they are designed to do: force women to give birth.

This is why I feel that blanket laws across a country regarding something as important as this is a much better approach than "let the states decide". Some doctors would be moving all over the place for a variety of professional/personal reasons and having a set of potentially confusing rules in place that change depending on what side of an imaginary line you are on would create so much anxiety within the field.

SCOTUS overturning the previous law and pushing this back to the states has created a completely irresponsible mess in my opinion.

 

[CM86]

So, all I was stating in my original post above (and what I believe Big_Birdy was inferring... for which they got negged for some reason) was that we need to be wary of using a story as an emotive tool. Unfortunately, hearsay rules our modern day media.

???

I think it is important to note at this point that the story regarding the 10 year old girl appears to be completely made up.

The Ohio Attorney General confirmed that no police department in the state has received a report regarding this, and also confirmed that in the circumstances under Ohio law an abortion would have been legal.

 

[Big_Birdy]

People have talked about doctors being reluctant to treat women given the risk of prosecution.

These laws do what they are designed to do: force women to give birth.

How much of the reluctance is due to the law and how much is due to misinformation about the law though?

A doctor risks prosecution in practically every decision they make. Although virtually all professions or occupations come with at least a small inherent risk of criminal negligence, the risk is much more omnipresent and far greater for a doctor due to the nature of the role. And the justification will always need to be after the fact, as is needed with the medical exemption under the heartbeat law. That is why the law for the medical exemption has words like "reasonable judgement" of the doctor. They set a lower standard than the doctor actually needing to be 100% correct that there was a danger to the mother, just that they could reasonably justify a belief that there was.

There is currently also misinformation about ectopic pregnancies and abortion law. What if the next doctor in Ohio sends a woman who is 12 weeks in to an ectopic pregnancy to another state as they think and they cannot legally schedule an abortion because of this story, and the woman dies on the way? That doctor could very well also be at risk of prosecution for criminal negligence in that scenario too (depending on the wording of the law. I cant look it up because for whatever reason I can't access any Ohio laws from my computer).

I want to make it clear, I don't agree with Ohio's heartbeat law. I'm not justifying the law, but criticising what appears to be (at least as it stands right now) dangerous misinformation.

 

[Gralin]

I absolutely agree with your second paragraph here, but I think you're also partially missing the point I am making.

The horrible stories being told SHOULD (unfortunately) be the reality of the decision. If they are, then they can be told in an effort to build support for change from the people. We'd absolutely prefer not to hear any horrible stories but, unfortunately, they are the outcome of the horrible decision. Sure, the scotus may know that these types of situations exist and still stand by their decision, but if the overwhelming majority of people (note the word "overwhelming" as there's no doubting that a majority already support abortion rights) support change and stand up for that change then I would be confident that positive change would happen. Yes, horrible decisions have been made but I believe in people power in overturning that. These stories can help sway those who are on the other side or have yet to make a decision. The problem people you speak of can try and downplay/discredit these stories as much as they like, but if the story is undeniable then their actions here look worse to that majority, fueling the anger they are trying to avoid.

If, however, these stories are not the actual reality and are proven so then they actually have the opposite effect mentioned above and, in fact, those on the other side end up being strengthened in their stance and those undecided may be pushed towards the other direction... therefor... no positive change.

So, all I was stating in my original post above (and what I believe Big_Birdy was inferring... for which they got negged for some reason) was that we need to be wary of using a story as an emotive tool. Unfortunately, hearsay rules our modern day media.

Still not sure where any of what I said could be interpreted as suggesting equal weight be given... but, oh well, hopefully this clears it up!

yeah I get it
But also its really easy to make stuff up or discredit stuff

it's much harder to prove stuff

you're not going to win the misinformation battle and honestly the people making the decisions don't care how inhumane or dishonest they have to be

if you think you can change minds with horror stories go ahead but someone just has to say I don't think that story is true and then you either find out its not or you have to do a bunch of work to prove it is and then depending on the sources the other person will believe what they want to most of the time anyway instead of reality

which again is why I think direct action should be looked at, not pleading for humanity

 

[darth_timon]

???

Whether or not the story about the ten year-old is true, there are people who believe in forcing children to have babies, and they even think this is an act of love.

 

[CM86]

The deliberate dissemination of disinformation is almost entirely coming from the anti-abortion 'side'.

This story hasn't been shown to be false at all. It has been questioned.
Those questions have been latched onto, and turned into a bigger story.
The story is now about how it's misinformation. Rather than a possible reality.

So now the 'truth' is that the story isn't true. And we're shaming people for talking about it.

 

[Gruffles]

yeah I get it
But also its really easy to make stuff up or discredit stuff

it's much harder to prove stuff

you're not going to win the misinformation battle and honestly the people making the decisions don't care how inhumane or dishonest they have to be

if you think you can change minds with horror stories go ahead but someone just has to say I don't think that story is true and then you either find out its not or you have to do a bunch of work to prove it is and then depending on the sources the other person will believe what they want to most of the time anyway instead of reality

which again is why I think direct action should be looked at, not pleading for humanity

I completely agree with the bolded here. I also absolutely believe that stories can change minds and, in fact, strongly believe that they are what lead many people to form an opinion.

The problem we face currently is that the media aren't doing their job. It's really easy to make stuff up or discredit stuff because the media sucks. They'll report anything without doing any fact checking. If they did actually do their job then it would be much harder for those people to be dishonest/discredit. It shouldn't be up to random footy forum contributors to do the media's fact checking for them and the fact we've got to having to do this on their behalf is really disappointing. It frustrated the crap out of me with all the misinformation that was being produced as fact in all the covid threads!

 

[Gralin]

I completely agree with the bolded here. I also absolutely believe that stories can change minds and, in fact, strongly believe that they are what lead many people to form an opinion.

The problem we face currently is that the media aren't doing their job. It's really easy to make stuff up or discredit stuff because the media sucks. They'll report anything without doing any fact checking. If they did actually do their job then it would be much harder for those people to be dishonest/discredit. It shouldn't be up to random footy forum contributors to do the medias fact checking for them and the fact we've got to having to do this on their behalf is really disappointing. It frustrated the crap out of me with all the misinformation that was being produced as fact in all the covid threads!

yeah the media don't vet shit anymore

but also not all media is pro choice, some of it is anti abortion so they will happily run misinfo against the pro choice people as well

i mean fox news anyone

but my point is more that the people that have done this won't have their minds changed by stories, direct pressure on them might get results, though most likely we will see them push back like they did with protecting SCOTUS instead of dealing with what SCOTUS is doing

 

[Gruffles]

The deliberate dissemination of disinformation is almost entirely coming from the anti-abortion 'side'.

This story hasn't been shown to be false at all. It has been questioned.
Those questions have been latched onto, and turned into a bigger story.
The story is now about how it's misinformation. Rather than a possible reality.

So now the 'truth' is that the story isn't true. And we're shaming people for talking about it.

See my point about the media above. It shouldn't be up to the people to do their work. The media should not be reporting on these things as "possible realities" and up to us to prove whether it is true or not. The problem here is that if the media report on something the reader likes then you take it as fact (prove it wrong, as you're stating above), but if they report on something the reader doesn't like then they demand the truth (where's their sources! etc). This is how they're working at the moment because it works... and that sucks.

I'm not sure that anyone is being shamed for talking about it here though??

 

[Gruffles]

but my point is more that the people that have done this won't have their minds changed by stories, direct pressure on them might get results, though most likely we will see them push back like they did with protecting SCOTUS instead of dealing with what SCOTUS is doing

This is the unfortunate truth of it all. However, in my eyes the more "undecided" that become decided... the more direct pressure there will be to get the positive result we both desire.

 

[Gralin]

also Gruffles my other issue with focusing on the extreme situations like the 10 year old, is it creates a how much misery is acceptable position for the other side.

it gives them a well we'll let this one through but keep everything else dead, it changes the discussion from abortion is a right to abortion is only allowed in these very specific circumstances, so it keeps the moral high ground of saving lives for the forced birthers

like you might change some peoples minds but its not going to get good rights for people

fascists love that shit, debating with them legitimises there position and gives them the chance to push all their ideas and move the discussion to where they wan to go and get people accepting their position.

and they never stop when they get a win they go on for the next one, they'll keep chipping and people will drop off thinking they've won when all they've done is slow the bleeding temporarily

 

[Gough]

If we're worried about truth let's look at the Supreme Court Justices who lied under oath when they said they considered abortion settled law.

 

[Cooldude]

If we're worried about truth let's look at the Supreme Court Justices who lied under oath when they said they considered abortion settled law.

If they hate abortion because the bible says so, then they're gonna hate what it says about perjury. Not that they really care

 

[CM86]

See my point about the media above. It shouldn't be up to the people to do their work. The media should not be reporting on these things as "possible realities" and up to us to prove whether it is true or not. The problem here is that if the media report on something the reader likes then you take it as fact (prove it wrong, as you're stating above), but if they report on something the reader doesn't like then they demand the truth (where's their sources! etc). This is how they're working at the moment because it works... and that sucks.

I'm not sure that anyone is being shamed for talking about it here though??

Why are you talking about it, like the article is false? That OBGYN Caitlin Bernard is a liar?
We all know that she cannot give out personal details of patients, maybe she's already in trouble for what she's done so far.



Birdy made a statement. I responded with a link to support my response. You called out my response.