Rich, Hartlett, Sidebottom, Ziebell and Yarran

[Roxley]

Yarran is very lazy, Rich can be too, also a little slow

So I would go with Hartlett or sidebottom

 

[naita]

From what I've seen Yarran is very lazy I can't see him chasing anyone.

I've only watched Rich late and he could be the same but he from all reports had OP so I won't judge him yet.

yarran and rich are outstanding players but this side of things really lets them down. both have seemed to not follow up and get around to the contests enough when ive watched them, although when yarran does there arent many players more exciting to watch.

Hartlett imo is the hardest player out of that group, earns the hard ball, tackles hard and chases. Half the reason why i have him as the second best onballer in the draft (behind Rich).

from what i've seen id agree.


on the whole though, i reckon big naita is youre man if your looking for hardness, agression, desparation, etc.

 

[TheBigUnit]

Yarran's more of a stalker than a hard chaser when it comes to defensive pressure - I think he gets underrated by most in this department because of his general laconic demeanor. Very strong tackler, but defensive pressure wise he isn't like Naita with the massive repeat efforts, running from one ball carrier to the next, but if someone is within striking distance he'll generally give it a fair dinkum crack. He has this nack of creeping up on opponents and surprising them with the tackle - with Naita you can hear him coming from a mile, opponents know they're going to get hit and know it's going to bloody hurt, but with Yarran it's more of an unexpected and unpleasant surprise for the player that gets tackled.

Rich is a bit like Kerr with his defensive pressure. Can do some really impressive stuff that will make the highlight reels (long chase with a swan dive tackle, coralling someone singlehandedly and then pouncing, diving smother etc.), but doesn't consistently enough as you'd like/with enough intensity at times (doesn't have much of an engine yet).

 

[LemmingMaster]

Hartlett imo is the hardest player out of that group, earns the hard ball, tackles hard and chases. Half the reason why i have him as the second best onballer in the draft (behind Rich).

Maybe you know something I don't, but I would not rate Hartlett as a hard tackler. I actually think it is one of his slight weaknesses.

 

[Panthera]

Out of this quintet, who is the better player WITHOUT the ball and the more accountable player?

Everyone on here has heard about their skill and talent, but who works harder when their man and the opposition win the ball?

Who would be the best tackler?

Who is easier to exploit due to a lack of pace, strength, size or intensity?

Feel free to name someone else if it's another player who is a gun talent.

No offence General, but who gives a shit ........I want my Brissie Lions to select the best player available talent/character wise and then teach them the necessary defensive skills

Please excuse my harshness, just got to work and received dumbass e-mails from dumbass clients

 

[Jeremias]

No offence General, but who gives a shit ........I want my Brissie Lions to select the best player available talent/character wise and then teach them the necessary defensive skills

Please excuse my harshness, just got to work and received dumbass e-mails from dumbass clients

TG asked the question because it is clear that we get burned on the field by soft front-runners like Travis Johnstone, Dal Santo, Lovett etc. all too often.

Our midfield is becoming very strong but, save for a select few, we always seem to get run off our feet when teams take the ball back the other way.

We need players that have the natural ability in them to run the other way. It's all well and good to be able to attack, but good defending, including defensive pressure from the midfield, can take you further in September.

I have no doubt that if we recruit a midfielder with pick 6, we'll place an emphasis on their ability to run back to chase their man in defense. Of course, players can be taught this in an AFL environment. But if it is in some of the best available and not in others, why teach from the beginning if they have a solid defensive base already?

 

[Cruiser23]

Maybe you know something I don't, but I would not rate Hartlett as a hard tackler. I actually think it is one of his slight weaknesses.

I agree Tarquin, not sure maybe I haven't seen enough of him, but that was the impression I got when I've seen him play.

TG, I like the question, think it's different and emphasis should be payed to this part of a players game. It also isn't easy to teach, just look at Dal Santo, Johnstone etc. It is also becoming just as important as someones skills set.

It is a tough question though as I think all those players offer something different and all lack in different areas.

 

[Bay Pie]

It seems odd that so many on BF don't rate Hartlett as high as he was earlier in the year (tauted as top 5 certainty). Maybe it is because they think the Vic kids will get taken by the Vic clubs. No doubt Sidebottoms TAC performance will see his stocks rise but I recall reading during the champs from good judges that he was only slightly behind Rich as the best true midfielder.

 

[Panthera]

TG asked the question because it is clear that we get burned on the field by soft front-runners like Travis Johnstone, Dal Santo, Lovett etc. all too often.

Our midfield is becoming very strong but, save for a select few, we always seem to get run off our feet when teams take the ball back the other way.

We need players that have the natural ability in them to run the other way. It's all well and good to be able to attack, but good defending, including defensive pressure from the midfield, can take you further in September.

I have no doubt that if we recruit a midfielder with pick 6, we'll place an emphasis on their ability to run back to chase their man in defense. Of course, players can be taught this in an AFL environment. But if it is in some of the best available and not in others, why teach from the beginning if they have a solid defensive base already?

Fair point

 

[pinkus maximus]

It seems odd that so many on BF don't rate Hartlett as high as he was earlier in the year (tauted as top 5 certainty). Maybe it is because they think the Vic kids will get taken by the Vic clubs. No doubt Sidebottoms TAC performance will see his stocks rise but I recall reading during the champs from good judges that he was only slightly behind Rich as the best true midfielder.

There are rumours that Fremantle rate Hartlett even higher than Rich

 

[Salaryman]

We need players that have the natural ability in them to run the other way. It's all well and good to be able to attack, but good defending, including defensive pressure from the midfield, can take you further in September.

I have no doubt that if we recruit a midfielder with pick 6, we'll place an emphasis on their ability to run back to chase their man in defense. Of course, players can be taught this in an AFL environment. But if it is in some of the best available and not in others, why teach from the beginning if they have a solid defensive base already?

Stephen Hill

 

[bLuEbOy1984]

Ziebell?

 

[Jeremias]

Stephen Hill

Pretty sure I've said before that Hill is someone I wouldn't mind taking at pick 6

Having said that, I think the likes of Hartlett and Ziebell have more to offer as an overall player than Hill.

 

[Funkalicous]

I'm warming to Hartlett by the day. Sounds like one of those "safe" 200+ gamers. - Much like a Marc Murphy or Joel Selwood.

Ziebell does offer more in versatility though...

 

[Silvagnis]

No offence General, but who gives a shit ........I want my Brissie Lions to select the best player available talent/character wise and then teach them the necessary defensive skills

Because I haven't heard this asked before and HBF says you have to separate them out somehow.

And reading the thoughts of recruiters in Quayle's book got me thinking about their "drawbacks" as a player.

I want all of them in Navy Blue.

Yarran's more of a stalker than a hard chaser when it comes to defensive pressure - I think he gets underrated by most in this department because of his general laconic demeanor. Very strong tackler, but defensive pressure wise he isn't like Naita with the massive repeat efforts, running from one ball carrier to the next, but if someone is within striking distance he'll generally give it a fair dinkum crack. He has this nack of creeping up on opponents and surprising them with the tackle - with Naita you can hear him coming from a mile, opponents know they're going to get hit and know it's going to bloody hurt, but with Yarran it's more of an unexpected and unpleasant surprise for the player that gets tackled.

Rich is a bit like Kerr with his defensive pressure. Can do some really impressive stuff that will make the highlight reels (long chase with a swan dive tackle, coralling someone singlehandedly and then pouncing, diving smother etc.), but doesn't consistently enough as you'd like/with enough intensity at times (doesn't have much of an engine yet).

TG, I like the question, think it's different and emphasis should be payed to this part of a players.

I haven't heard it asked before.

What is your man Ziebell like?

Does he get beaten easily by quickers players who run off him?

Or does he have smarts like Hodge to make up for any lack of pace?

Stephen Hill

I was thinking of Hill when I wrote the last sentence.

Hartlett does sound a lot like Gibbs who is accountable and a great tackler.

 

[Carnthe]

Our midfield is becoming very strong but, save for a select few, we always seem to get run off our feet when teams take the ball back the other way.

We need players that have the natural ability in them to run the other way. It's all well and good to be able to attack, but good defending, including defensive pressure from the midfield, can take you further in September.

It generally comes from the coaching, fitness and maturity... I certainly don't think its natural. In fact if it is, its probably because the player is trying to make up for what they lack in other regards.

 

[Jeremias]

It generally comes from the coaching, fitness and maturity... I certainly don't think its natural. In fact if it is, its probably because the player is trying to make up for what they lack in other regards.

That may well be true, but I am a firm believer that many footballers just grow with the ability to run the other way.

Of course, at the end of the day it can, and in most cases will be taught to them.

However, I do believe that the ability to cover their tracks defensively may be a factor in being selected over another midfielder if it is difficult to otherwise split them

 

[Smyth94]

It generally comes from the coaching, fitness and maturity... I certainly don't think its natural. In fact if it is, its probably because the player is trying to make up for what they lack in other regards.

I wouldn't be so certain that defensive actions are so easily taught in the AFL.

Take Brent Stanton for example, he's near on 100 games and is still very poor defensively. He has improved in a lot of areas such as kicking skills, goal scoring and tackling but he still has a poor grasp when it actually comes to picking up a man rather than occupying space. Brent probably has the biggest engine at the club but he doesn't use it enough to the advantage of the team.

There would've been a lot of examples of players coming through juniors who were the "it" player of their team, Stanton resembles one of these and that attitude costs Essendon time and again.

That may well be true, but I am a firm believer that many footballers just grow with the ability to run the other way.

Of course, at the end of the day it can, and in most cases will be taught to them.

However, I do believe that the ability to cover their tracks defensively may be a factor in being selected over another midfielder if it is difficult to otherwise split them

Couldn't of put it better myself.

I remember reading an article about Bryce Gibbs' dad not allowing him to be the star man when coaching him in the juniors and already he has come into the AFL system with a good knowledge in the defensive side of the game.

 

[Masten2McKinley]

i no Yarran would be the worse which is a worry, you need him to be like a Rioli and Davey and run down players. Rich isnt to bad i have seen him run down a few players. havnt seen enough of the others to comment

 

[Bluebear]

That may well be true, but I am a firm believer that many footballers just grow with the ability to run the other way.

Its mainly a mental skill.

The guys who are good at it know where their man is even when they have the ball. They switch quickly from attack to defense when there is a turnover, and they position themselves around contest so that if you do turn it over, they can shut down their opponent.

It does come naturally for some, but this is a product of their junior coaching.

Gibbs is an excellent example. He always seems to have an awareness of where his man is and doesn't over commit and become too attacking if it's not clear we will retain the footy. Hence, his opponents rarely have a higher possession count that he does.

Fev is a good example of someone who has all the physical attribbutes to have a superb defensive side to his game, but all too often a good first effort is then followed by some spectating (unless he is trying to lay a tackle to get his 100th goal......then he has 2nd, 3rd, 4th..........efforts ).

It doesn't come naturally to Fev at all and despite working on it for years it is still hard work. Mentally he is not up to it.

If Yarran is not likely to add some pressure up forward then as good as the X factor (whatever that is) may be, we can't risk him. Our forward line is bad enough in this respect without making it worse.

Ditto our midfield as J has pointed out.

 

[Carnthe]

Its mainly a mental skill.

The guys who are good at it know where their man is even when they have the ball. They switch quickly from attack to defense when there is a turnover, and they position themselves around contest so that if you do turn it over, they can shut down their opponent.

It does come naturally for some, but this is a product of their junior coaching.

It comes down to desire and how willing the individual is to sacrifice their own game for the team's game.

Gibbs is an excellent example. He always seems to have an awareness of where his man is and doesn't over commit and become too attacking if it's not clear we will retain the footy. Hence, his opponents rarely have a higher possession count that he does.

You can thank Pagan for playing Gibbs in a back pocket for his first season while all the ferals were screaming for him to be moved up the ground. Playing down back is the best way to learn respect for your man IMO.

 

[bigstyletiger]

From what I've seen Yarran is very lazy I can't see him chasing anyone.

I've only watched Rich late and he could be the same but he from all reports had OP so I won't judge him yet.

That could change very easily in an AFL environment. The problem with junior footy these days can be too many games not enough training. Not sure what his situation is though, just throwing it in as a possibility.

Heard recently that Adam Maric before he was drafted had done very little real fitness work. Apparently he was playing school footy and for calder and just wouldn't train as much. His trainer now reckons that he could be a jet.

Yarran might be lazy or just not have natural fitness base and so doesn't do the one percenters.

 

[Silvagnis]

It isn't Ratten's decision, but he apparently likes Yarran, so I'd back him to get him to play accountable football after the improvement shown by Grigg and to a lesser extent Russell this year.

 

[Top_4_Tiger]

There are rumours that Fremantle rate Hartlett even higher than Rich

I am suspicious about this.

To me it seems like a case where the club has deliberately not name-dropped Daniel Rich in interviews and Freo fans just assume "oh, we're not interested in him... we probably prefer Hartlett".

It's more likely that Freo are acting this way so WC think to themselves "maybe we would be better off with Nat" and therefore leaving Freo to take Rich.

But this "rumour" started from fans making assumptions, am I right?

Take Brent Stanton for example, he's near on 100 games and is still very poor defensively.

That is true.

But I think you'll find that the reason for this is he has worked on his strengths and not as much time on his weaknesses.

He worked on getting better at clearances and using his body to get rid of his opponent instead of working on running defensively.

Actually Trent Cotchin named Kerr and Stanton as the 2 players who taught him the most this year while playing on them, so that's a pretty big compliment. With Stant it was mainly for his excellent use of the body in packs.

So the question might not be "Can you teach defensive pressure", but more like "Do you want to teach defensive pressure at the sacrifice of improving your strengths?"




It doesn't matter how well rounded you are, if your strengths don't make you stand out you'll always be average.

Can't work on your weaknesses without cutting back on your strengths.

 

[Cruiser23]

I am suspicious about this.

To me it seems like a case where the club has deliberately not name-dropped Daniel Rich in interviews and Freo fans just assume "oh, we're not interested in him... we probably prefer Hartlett".

It's more likely that Freo are acting this way so WC think to themselves "maybe we would be better off with Nat" and therefore leaving Freo to take Rich.

But this "rumour" started from fans making assumptions, am I right?




That is true.

But I think you'll find that the reason for this is he has worked on his strengths and not as much time on his weaknesses.

He worked on getting better at clearances and using his body to get rid of his opponent instead of working on running defensively.

Actually Trent Cotchin named Kerr and Stanton as the 2 players who taught him the most this year while playing on them, so that's a pretty big compliment. With Stant it was mainly for his excellent use of the body in packs.

So the question might not be "Can you teach defensive pressure", but more like "Do you want to teach defensive pressure at the sacrifice of improving your strengths?"




It doesn't matter how well rounded you are, if your strengths don't make you stand out you'll always be average.

Can't work on your weaknesses without cutting back on your strengths.

Had a squiz on the Dockers board and there is a fella that persists in saying that the Dockers aren't interested in Rich and will take either Hartlett or Naitanui. Apparently he has a source inside the club and was spot on about the Dockers re-signing Andrew Browne.