Autopsy Round 10, 2024: St.Kilda v Fremantle

[The Punter]

So...

Jones in for Stocker (we got older)

but

Collard in for Garcia - push
Phillipou in for Hastie - push

Dow in for Ross - younger
Sharman in for Member - younger
Caminiti in for Hayes - younger

My point? All those who want us to grab that top 5 draft pick? This is what it looks like. This is what you signed up for.

Some other thoughts:

• I can't really remember Phillipou getting an easy touch this year, or having the ball in space. He never gets any cheap ball.
• Ok, so Bonner had some shockers this week and my bet offer is off. But when he went to take the next kick in after the big blunder and the crowd started booing ... I mean, is he more likely to hit a target when his own supporters are booing him or less likely?
• We just fumble all the time. Do all our players have Donald Trump hands? Freo were cleaner, and they won because of it.
• Max has to find a way to succeed in spite of being assaulted. That's the way it is.
• Nice five minutes from Caminiti.

 

[Saint Watto]

So...

Jones in for Stocker (we got older)

but

Collard in for Garcia - push
Phillipou in for Hastie - push

Dow in for Ross - younger
Sharman in for Member - younger
Caminiti in for Hayes - younger

My point? All those who want us to grab that top 5 draft pick? This is what it looks like. This is what you signed up for.

Some other thoughts:

• I can't really remember Phillipou getting an easy touch this year, or having the ball in space. He never gets any cheap ball.
• Ok, so Bonner had some shockers this week and my bet offer is off. But when he went to take the next kick in after the big blunder and the crowd started booing ... I mean, is he more likely to hit a target when his own supporters are booing him or less likely?
• We just fumble all the time. Do all our players have Donald Trump hands? Freo were cleaner, and they won because of it.
• Max has to find a way to succeed in spite of being assaulted. That's the way it is.
• Nice five minutes from Caminiti.

A great post there TP.

You summed things up perfectly IMO.

Re Bonner being booed.

He ain't gunna win the B&F this season.......but that is absolutely disgraceful.

Thankfully I didn't hear that from where I was sitting.

On reflection....I may have been making a pitstop at the bar....

 

[ULTIMATE_WARRIOR]

We need to set ourselves up similar to Hawthorn did prior to the Gold Coast/GWS competition entry. Albeit they won a flag in 08 and we haven’t.

Get young, get younger again, recruit from top end of draft, have our age demographic timed to peak at the 25-28 bracket when Tassie enter the comp in roughly 2028.

Have Lyon be our Paul Roos. Ingrain an attitude and acknowledgement of non negotiables into our youth that will be their default when they eventually do enter that sweet spot of age.

 

[pebblesofsand]

So...

Jones in for Stocker (we got older)

but

Collard in for Garcia - push
Phillipou in for Hastie - push

Dow in for Ross - younger
Sharman in for Member - younger
Caminiti in for Hayes - younger

My point? All those who want us to grab that top 5 draft pick? This is what it looks like. This is what you signed up for.

Some other thoughts:

• I can't really remember Phillipou getting an easy touch this year, or having the ball in space. He never gets any cheap ball.
• Ok, so Bonner had some shockers this week and my bet offer is off. But when he went to take the next kick in after the big blunder and the crowd started booing ... I mean, is he more likely to hit a target when his own supporters are booing him or less likely?
• We just fumble all the time. Do all our players have Donald Trump hands? Freo were cleaner, and they won because of it.
• Max has to find a way to succeed in spite of being assaulted. That's the way it is.
• Nice five minutes from Caminiti.

I think Max's way of succeeding in spite of being assaulted is to lead more.

Like it or not, but umpires view a "battle of strength" between a fwd and a defender quite differently to an arm chop on a fwd on the lead.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There was one stat in that game that mattered.
Clearances. Not centre clearances , but clearances around the ground.
Total Clearances :33-50
Centre Clearances 9( Saints ) to 8.

Everything else was kind of even.

Stoppage Clearances 24 to 42.

They had a lot more uncontested marks, so we weren't manning up those players , and once they mark it , there's no contest.
They also had more tackles.

Jackson, Steele , Serong,Marshall and Brayshaw had the most clearances. ( 8-10).

Young had 5
Windhager and Fyfe had 4.
Sinclair , O'Meara , Johnson and Hill had 3.

Dow and Aish had 2.

Dow: 0, Jones 0, Henry 0, Thirteen players had no clearances.
Freo had 9.

8 Saints had 1 tackle or less. Fremantle had 3.

--------
Disappointing
Jones ( brief time, but what's the good of him, shell of his former self. )
Dow
Henry ( faded ).
Paton
Howard

 

[Red White Black]

Watching St Kilda play football be like...

 

[Tom12]

Love Steeley but he shouldn’t be captain. Simple as that. When it’s not going well for him or the team he drops his head. No matter what the captain needs to be up and about encouraging and directing.

Wilkie should be captain, cos I don’t know who else could.

This has been the case for over 2 years. It needs to change as soon as possible, he's not good enough.

 

[phantom13]

Once again from what it sounds and reading between the lines both Ross and Pou no exactly where he is at atm. Even sounds like Pou wants to go back to the vfl and dominate.

If anything it sounded like a complete disconnect to me.

Also Ross has been in the media a long time, so he either knew that saying that about Pou would lead to a stack of pundits saying its shit that Pou wants to play twos OR hes completely forgotten what the media does.

The comment was really really poor IMO. If thats a convo that happened between player and coach it should remain between player and coach.

Ross trying to be too cute in his pressers.

 

[Leap of Faith]

Read this today from Rohan Connolly. Accurate IMO.

“Okay this needs to be said. I’ve got nothing against Ross Lyon at all. His footy knowledge and nous is first class. But you simply can’t win a flag without being able to score and his teams consistently don’t.
He’s had 14 completed seasons as coach with StKilda and Fremantle. And just once, in 2009 when the Saints were runners up, have his teams ranked any higher than seventh for points scored, whilst nine times his teams have ranked top six for fewest points conceded.
In the 21st century we’ve had 24 premierships and just three times has a team ranked lower than sixth for points scored won a flag. You have to be able to score at least respectably to be in the ball game. And Lyon’s teams still don’t.

Last year St.Kilda whilst #1 for fewest points scored against, was a dismal 15th for points scored. Even this season the Saints are going okay defensively (6th before this round for fewest points against), but 14th for points scored.

You can’t return this sort of discrepancy between defence and attack over a long period and be believed when you say you value attacking football and scoring. He doesn’t. And the numbers simply don’t stack up. He has to change. “

 

[littlecreatures]

Not sure where to post on here, but do any Western Sainters have a spare members Ticketmaster barcode they aren’t using for game over here in 2 weeks time?

 

[phantom13]

Read this today from Rohan Connolly. Accurate IMO.

“Okay this needs to be said. I’ve got nothing against Ross Lyon at all. His footy knowledge and nous is first class. But you simply can’t win a flag without being able to score and his teams consistently don’t.
He’s had 14 completed seasons as coach with StKilda and Fremantle. And just once, in 2009 when the Saints were runners up, have his teams ranked any higher than seventh for points scored, whilst nine times his teams have ranked top six for fewest points conceded.
In the 21st century we’ve had 24 premierships and just three times has a team ranked lower than sixth for points scored won a flag. You have to be able to score at least respectably to be in the ball game. And Lyon’s teams still don’t.

Last year St.Kilda whilst #1 for fewest points scored against, was a dismal 15th for points scored. Even this season the Saints are going okay defensively (6th before this round for fewest points against), but 14th for points scored.

You can’t return this sort of discrepancy between defence and attack over a long period and be believed when you say you value attacking football and scoring. He doesn’t. And the numbers simply don’t stack up. He has to change. “

Someone asked the question about Ross and his defensive footy mindset in another thread, thought it was a good query (and had some time at work) so looked into it.

Thought this was a good question so looked myself.

2010 - 1935 points for at an average of 87, puts us 8th for scoring for the year (noting there was a big discrepancy between the top 8 and the bottom 8 that we bridged, the next highest was 2017 to Sydney and the next lowest was 1930 to North and Essendon).

2013 - To extend it a bit further Freo in their GF year were 11th in points for with 2035 at 92.

2022 - St.Kilda last year 14th in points for (we finished 6th for the record) with 1775 (Collingwood had 2142) at 77 per game.

St.Kilda this year 14th in points for averaging 74 per game. Worth noting its a pretty historically bad bottom 4 that were JUST sitting above (Hawthorn averaging 70 per game)

My biggest concern with this is that Ross' gameplans really do seem to stifle any natural creativity or flair players have. Pou seems to be the walking embodiment of it at the moment. He looks devoid of any confidence and joy.

It might be the Paul Roos model (defence first) but i think theres a big risk that this destroys development and even if we manage to draft some great young kids well smash their confidence and ability in those first few years and then were back to the Billings/Richo era.

Ross has to adapt. 8 goals a game wont win you many footy games anymore and our list is built for fast, corridor footy. Might mean we have some blowouts but itll also mean we can win some games, develop some kids into weapons and actually be a watchable enjoyable team.

Id probably take this defensive shit ugly footy if we were winning but were not and nobody is enjoying it.

 

[SG34]

At what age does the team cease to serve the player, and the player needs to only serve the team? 20? 23?

And at what stage a season ‘lost’?

 

[Saintbloke]

An interesting thought there TC.

Goddard took several years and endless speculation as to what would be his best playing position.

He eventually came good.....very very good.

I remember Goddard in his early days, and to be honest, he looked more like he was going to make it- had a bit of run and carry in his play, though I do remember he was getting criticised a bit as young guys do, but he had plenty of upside.

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Someone asked the question about Ross and his defensive footy mindset in another thread, thought it was a good query (and had some time at work) so looked into it.

Thought this was a good question so looked myself.

2010 - 1935 points for at an average of 87, puts us 8th for scoring for the year (noting there was a big discrepancy between the top 8 and the bottom 8 that we bridged, the next highest was 2017 to Sydney and the next lowest was 1930 to North and Essendon).

2013 - To extend it a bit further Freo in their GF year were 11th in points for with 2035 at 92.

2022 - St.Kilda last year 14th in points for (we finished 6th for the record) with 1775 (Collingwood had 2142) at 77 per game.

St.Kilda this year 14th in points for averaging 74 per game. Worth noting its a pretty historically bad bottom 4 that were JUST sitting above (Hawthorn averaging 70 per game)

My biggest concern with this is that Ross' gameplans really do seem to stifle any natural creativity or flair players have. Pou seems to be the walking embodiment of it at the moment. He looks devoid of any confidence and joy.

It might be the Paul Roos model (defence first) but i think theres a big risk that this destroys development and even if we manage to draft some great young kids well smash their confidence and ability in those first few years and then were back to the Billings/Richo era.

Ross has to adapt. 8 goals a game wont win you many footy games anymore and our list is built for fast, corridor footy. Might mean we have some blowouts but itll also mean we can win some games, develop some kids into weapons and actually be a watchable enjoyable team.

Id probably take this defensive s**t ugly footy if we were winning but were not and nobody is enjoying it.

Agreed. And I remember having the same complaints during Ross’ last tenure.
Last year the kids were playing how they knew to play and had fun. Now they’ve had a year of rossification their natural ability has been stifled to play boring defensive footy. It’s a sad watch. Ross likes his runners and defenders.
Pou was a confident somewhat arrogant character who we needed. Now he’s a shell of the kid he was.

 

[Ads734]

If anything it sounded like a complete disconnect to me.

Also Ross has been in the media a long time, so he either knew that saying that about Pou would lead to a stack of pundits saying its s**t that Pou wants to play twos OR hes completely forgotten what the media does.

The comment was really really poor IMO. If thats a convo that happened between player and coach it should remain between player and coach.

Ross trying to be too cute in his pressers.

I think he was just trying to be protective of Pou in a way that didn't smash him but was keeping expectations a bit fairer.

 

[gringo2011]

Knowing how, where, and when to lead is an issue for so many of our players.
It's nothing short of weird. I can't remember it being an issue for any of our previous team incarnations...and I've been following the Saints since '87. Players knowing where to go should be partly coached through systems etc. but mostly it should be instinctual.
Even in the early to mid Richo years we had players - some far less talented than what we have now on the books - capable of running into space. Towards the end of his tenure it dried up, almost team wide. It hasn't changed since.
As said... it's weird. To me we just move in packs with our immediate opponents hoping that the 50/50 works in our favour.
Clearly it isn't working.

Bruce and Membrey were both solid lead makers and often followed the play up then doubled back which meant they often found masses of space. We used to play often with Jack Lonie the only player inside 50. If they marked further out they could barrel inside 50 and hope that Lonie could win one out against a tall that was sitting there as a goal keeper.

His game plan was pretty basic but solid, he just never had enough elite talent to go anywhere and no plan to improve it. Ratts had that one year with Joe the Goose out the back to Butler off the talls and once it was worked out we seemed to lose all attacking ability and had no plan B.

King doesn't understand that finding your own space is a way to get easy marks. He runs himself into traffic and tries to out mark his defender. When it works it's exciting but it has a low success rate. It makes him a very one dimensional player who needs to find a mismatch on a defender to have a good game.

Membrey has been a high half forward for along time now. He doesn't tend to play as a lead up marking forward anymore. King is usually the marking target inside 50 and Owens as some sort of hybrid between the two.

We should have kept Bruce to let Max King settle into AFL at his own pace. We Billingsed him where he had to carry too much weight of expectation and is now a neurotic head case who is taking years to meet potential.

 

[Ads734]

Someone asked the question about Ross and his defensive footy mindset in another thread, thought it was a good query (and had some time at work) so looked into it.

Thought this was a good question so looked myself.

2010 - 1935 points for at an average of 87, puts us 8th for scoring for the year (noting there was a big discrepancy between the top 8 and the bottom 8 that we bridged, the next highest was 2017 to Sydney and the next lowest was 1930 to North and Essendon).

2013 - To extend it a bit further Freo in their GF year were 11th in points for with 2035 at 92.

2022 - St.Kilda last year 14th in points for (we finished 6th for the record) with 1775 (Collingwood had 2142) at 77 per game.

St.Kilda this year 14th in points for averaging 74 per game. Worth noting its a pretty historically bad bottom 4 that were JUST sitting above (Hawthorn averaging 70 per game)

My biggest concern with this is that Ross' gameplans really do seem to stifle any natural creativity or flair players have. Pou seems to be the walking embodiment of it at the moment. He looks devoid of any confidence and joy.

It might be the Paul Roos model (defence first) but i think theres a big risk that this destroys development and even if we manage to draft some great young kids well smash their confidence and ability in those first few years and then were back to the Billings/Richo era.

Ross has to adapt. 8 goals a game wont win you many footy games anymore and our list is built for fast, corridor footy. Might mean we have some blowouts but itll also mean we can win some games, develop some kids into weapons and actually be a watchable enjoyable team.

Id probably take this defensive s**t ugly footy if we were winning but were not and nobody is enjoying it.

Understand but at Freo it wasn;t like the hills, Walters, Neale, Fyfe etc etc, Ballantyne were devoud of creativity.

 

[True Believer]

Now he’s a shell of the kid he was.

What a ridiculous statement!

On what evidence do you base this unsubstantiated drivel?

 

[sammm]

Agreed. And I remember having the same complaints during Ross’ last tenure.
Last year the kids were playing how they knew to play and had fun. Now they’ve had a year of rossification their natural ability has been stifled to play boring defensive footy. It’s a sad watch. Ross likes his runners and defenders.
Pou was a confident somewhat arrogant character who we needed. Now he’s a shell of the kid he was.

well, that was one of the reasons why i didn't want Ross back.

 

[phantom13]

I think he was just trying to be protective of Pou in a way that didn't smash him but was keeping expectations a bit fairer.

I think thats a very generous take (i think its Ross trying to win every presser by being funny and clever) but even so, its failed pretty dismally.

What a ridiculous statement!

On what evidence do you base this unsubstantiated drivel?

Watch him play. He looks tenative, hes looking to handball first at all times, just looks like a system player doing a role not a gamebreaking star that wants the ball.

Add in that Ross' is saying he wants to play VFL.

Doesnt seem like a kid choc full of confidence to me. Might be speculative but theres some stuff to back it up.

 

[TheJackal]

I remember Goddard in his early days, and to be honest, he looked more like he was going to make it- had a bit of run and carry in his play, though I do remember he was getting criticised a bit as young guys do, but he had plenty of upside.

I remember him differently. He had a lovely boot on him but was treacle slow in both movement and decision making, always got caught like a deer in the headlights. Him and Raph were a source of much frustration.

The move to the half backline allowed him the time and space to see and understand the game until he properly broke out.

Whilst he has barely played in the midfield, Nas was a similar player in the first few games he played - we all know what he has achieved since his move to defence.

One thing with Pou, both at training and in games, he is very solid with ball in hand in close. He often gets his handball off and rarely gets pulled down. His kicking, like BJ, is elite - that shows with his kicking for goal.

The kid shows amazing signs every game, he has had a lot of almost games but clearly doesn't get enough of it. Even on the weekend he was unlucky not to get a couple of contested marks in the fwd 50 - get those and he's kicked 3.

I was against Windy being sent back to the VFL last year but it's helped him immensely. Maybe that is the right plan for Pou, keep the faith though, a tall developing 19 year old kid is not the reason why we are struggling.

 

[gringo2011]

A great post there TP.

You summed things up perfectly IMO.

Re Bonner being booed.

He ain't gunna win the B&F this season.......but that is absolutely disgraceful.

Thankfully I didn't hear that from where I was sitting.

On reflection....I may have been making a pitstop at the bar....

I really don't see why Bonner cops it so much. It's a real perception over reality situation. He was one of 6 Saints players to get over 20 possessions and was at 84% efficiency was the most accurate. 4th most touches from any Saint too.

He's there to take the bold risk taking kicks that all sides use this year to open up the ground before zones can set.

You'd rather be playing risky that dour but when it goes badly it goes very very badly. We can't really win when going slow around the boundary comes back over our heads and brave corridor kicks are the best chance of breaking the game open but often turn over because our skills are a bit iffy.

 

[PJays]

• Ok, so Bonner had some shockers this week

Bonner looks really good sometimes and does nice things. He gets plenty of the ball and he's 7th in the AFL in metres gained. Our team is regularly criticised for chipping the ball sideways and refusing to play attacking footy. He drives the ball forward which is much needed.

But. It feels like almost every game this year he's had at least one turnover where he's kicked to the opposition and they've goaled soon after. I think in one game (perhaps Collingwood?) there were two.

When you're playing a defensive style and relying on locking the opponent down in a low scoring contest, those goals really hurt. Especially when you've lost games by 1, 4, 5, 8, 10 and 17.

I'm in two minds about him. Clearly he's got talent and he's contributing. But damn these regular brain fades have been costly.

 

[The Cobra]

Someone asked the question about Ross and his defensive footy mindset in another thread, thought it was a good query (and had some time at work) so looked into it.

Thought this was a good question so looked myself.

2010 - 1935 points for at an average of 87, puts us 8th for scoring for the year (noting there was a big discrepancy between the top 8 and the bottom 8 that we bridged, the next highest was 2017 to Sydney and the next lowest was 1930 to North and Essendon).

2013 - To extend it a bit further Freo in their GF year were 11th in points for with 2035 at 92.

2022 - St.Kilda last year 14th in points for (we finished 6th for the record) with 1775 (Collingwood had 2142) at 77 per game.

St.Kilda this year 14th in points for averaging 74 per game. Worth noting its a pretty historically bad bottom 4 that were JUST sitting above (Hawthorn averaging 70 per game)

My biggest concern with this is that Ross' gameplans really do seem to stifle any natural creativity or flair players have. Pou seems to be the walking embodiment of it at the moment. He looks devoid of any confidence and joy.

It might be the Paul Roos model (defence first) but i think theres a big risk that this destroys development and even if we manage to draft some great young kids well smash their confidence and ability in those first few years and then were back to the Billings/Richo era.

Ross has to adapt. 8 goals a game wont win you many footy games anymore and our list is built for fast, corridor footy. Might mean we have some blowouts but itll also mean we can win some games, develop some kids into weapons and actually be a watchable enjoyable team.

Id probably take this defensive s**t ugly footy if we were winning but were not and nobody is enjoying it.

No one likes the way we are playing & not scoring but just to take the other extreme for a minute - all preseason we heard about Northball and what an exciting attacking developing team they would be. They have scored 677 points for the year and have a percentage of 56.8%. We have scored 722 points & 94.1%

That fell apart for them pretty quickly & I don’t think I’ve heard the term Northball for 2 months. My point - it’s easy to say and not so easy to implement & can fall apart very quickly.

Also in 2009 we scored heavily and strangled teams with the Lyon Cage. So give RTB some elite talent to work with and then watch us score.

 

[Saintbloke]

Agreed. And I remember having the same complaints during Ross’ last tenure.
Last year the kids were playing how they knew to play and had fun. Now they’ve had a year of rossification their natural ability has been stifled to play boring defensive footy. It’s a sad watch. Ross likes his runners and defenders.
Pou was a confident somewhat arrogant character who we needed. Now he’s a shell of the kid he was.

Let's face it, the list has been "Rossed" totally