Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[bergholt]

The president needs to explain the process and thinking behind turfing ratten and why they got lying back

I thought it was pretty obvious? They didn't think Ratten was a good coach, so they decided to replace him.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

I thought it was pretty obvious? They didn't think Ratten was a good coach, so they decided to replace him.

Correcto mondo mate.

 

[Diehard Saint]

How about the basics like running a game out and not downing tools? Let's just get 22 players who do the job we pay them for first before worrying about who is vocal enough. In the last quarter yesterday the ball got turned over in front of the MCC and Ross and Steele were basically next to each other. Ross was back in defensive 50 before Steele got over half way.

But pick 3 will save us...

All you say.

But, despite the slightly sarcastic comment about pick 3 - no it wont "save us", but it will deliver more talent.
Which is what we need much more of.

I'm not an expert on footy plans, and structures etc by any means, but all I could see yesterday was players guarding space and allowing so many easy opposition marks. Wouldn't man on man be the better tactic?

 

[luca77]

Dow only looked OK at Carlton because he had Sam Walsh, Cripps and Cerra to make up for his shortcomings. Don't really think he was the right fit for us tbh.

Dow will fit in just fine, he just needs to get it, get clear and give it off to Hill/Henry,Nas. It's a simple job he's got the tools to do well.

Regarding the dump kick, I'm pretty sure it's the opposite of what Ross is trying to get us to do. There's intentional "dirty ball" so as not to give May/Tomlinson a good look at it, and there's "if I get it down to our forwards, it's their problem not mine anymore". That Steele/Ross/Marshall keep doing it , unnecessarily, is probably a sign that Ross is bringing in players to play a gamestyle that our long-term stalwarts are either not up to, or they played a static boring style under Richo/Ratts for so long that it's ingrained in them. The old with the new doesn't seem to be gelling.

As for Seb, he might not be in the worst half dozen players on the ground, but giving us as little as he is, his lack of dare, the need for Crouch/Clark to come in, and the fact that Steele is pretty much undroppable, he might find himself at Sandy. Ross seems to be happy with Stocker, and Steele/Stocker/Windy/Ross/Dow in the guts is way too much "meh."

I do like Ross in the team when he gets forward, he tends to be able to slot them and find the odd target.

Oh, and Collard needs more colourful hair and boots. But seriously, I think he needs game time with Henry/Hill/Nas so they get used to looking for him and finding him, or at least giving him some kind of chance when he gives himself one. But at his size/strength, he's not going to be able to hold onto (or break) any tackles at all at this level so he's probably just not ready tbh.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Gineb the Zebs win yesterday, what changes would you make?

Membrey for Caminiti
Hotton for Collard
Crouch for Ross
Ari for Bonner

Keeler and Clark close as well IMO

I'm done with Bonner.
We need to get a look at Hotton now.

 

[The Jack]

Please please please if we finish in the bottom 4 .... can we please get our 1st round draft pick correct ..... a generation gun mid .... please lord let it be so

Would be nice that if we got pick 4 we actually got to choose the 4th best player in the draft.

 

[The Punter]

Dow will fit in just fine, he just needs to get it, get clear and give it off to Hill/Henry,Nas. It's a simple job he's got the tools to do well.

Regarding the dump kick, I'm pretty sure it's the opposite of what Ross is trying to get us to do. There's intentional "dirty ball" so as not to give May/Tomlinson a good look at it, and there's "if I get it down to our forwards, it's their problem not mine anymore". That Steele/Ross/Marshall keep doing it , unnecessarily, is probably a sign that Ross is bringing in players to play a gamestyle that our long-term stalwarts are either not up to, or they played a static boring style under Richo/Ratts for so long that it's ingrained in them. The old with the new doesn't seem to be gelling.

As for Seb, he might not be in the worst half dozen players on the ground, but giving us as little as he is, his lack of dare, the need for Crouch/Clark to come in, and the fact that Steele is pretty much undroppable, he might find himself at Sandy. Ross seems to be happy with Stocker, and Steele/Stocker/Windy/Ross/Dow in the guts is way too much "meh."

I do like Ross in the team when he gets forward, he tends to be able to slot them and find the odd target.

Oh, and Collard needs more colourful hair and boots. But seriously, I think he needs game time with Henry/Hill/Nas so they get used to looking for him and finding him, or at least giving him some kind of chance when he gives himself one. But at his size/strength, he's not going to be able to hold onto (or break) any tackles at all at this level so he's probably just not ready tbh.

Why does Collard need game time with those three and not with King/Membrey/Caminiti/Sharman/Hayes or other St Kilda players?

And if Seb is giving us "little", then the other B&F winners yesterday must have been in negative territory. #seblibel

 

[The_Steadier]

Would be nice that if we got pick 4 we actually got to choose the 4th best player in the draft.

All you need to do is change how you see it.

Father/sons, academy players etc aren't in reality in the draft.

They just get to the club they were always going to be funnelled to by having their name read out on draft night.

That's the reality.
You can't bemoan missing out on something you were never allowed to have a realistic shot at.

So yeah- look at the realities and then you get your wish...
We will get the 4th best player who is actually in the draft.

 

[luca77]

Why does Collard need game time with those three and not with King/Membrey/Caminiti/Sharman/Hayes or other St Kilda players?

And if Seb is giving us "little", then the other B&F winners yesterday must have been in negative territory. #seblibel

I don't think you can play a match with 4 players, so yeah working with the other forwards goes without saying. I'm talking about when he gets clear and isn't being noticed or trusted by the ball user.

As for Seb, and as I said, someone has to make way for Crouch/Clark and eventually Matteus, possibly Hotton down the track. Steele is skipper, tackles well, and seems valued by RTB. Dow/Windy/Henry are the future. He mentioned Stocker a bunch of times in the presser. Who do you think is going to make way? Seb is going to need to offer a lot more than he has been lately to hold his spot imo, you're free to feel differently. It's not like the Richo days where he has to play his tried & true to keep his job. RTB/Enright etc are secure and looking to the future.

 

[The Punter]

I don't think you can play a match with 4 players, so yeah working with the other forwards goes without saying. I'm talking about when he gets clear and isn't being noticed or trusted by the ball user.

As for Seb, and as I said, someone has to make way for Crouch/Clark and eventually Matteus, possibly Hotton down the track. Steele is skipper, tackles well, and seems valued by RTB. Dow/Windy/Henry are the future. He mentioned Stocker a bunch of times in the presser. Who do you think is going to make way? Seb is going to need to offer a lot more than he has been lately to hold his spot imo, you're free to feel differently. It's not like the Richo days where he has to play his tried & true to keep his job. RTB/Enright etc are secure and looking to the future.

Yesterday Seb offered more than Steele IMO. We can't score, Seb had two goal assists (excellent, considered kicks to Higgins), let's drop him. Does Steele tackle well? Lots of St Kilda tackles don't end up in a ball-up or a holding the ball free kick, the only two acceptable results from a tackle.

If Seb is dropped after that game before others, it's more confirmation about what is valued at the club.

 

[luca77]

Yesterday Seb offered more than Steele IMO. We can't score, Seb had two goal assists (excellent, considered kicks to Higgins), let's drop him. Does Steele tackle well? Lots of St Kilda tackles don't end up in a ball-up or a holding the ball free kick, the only two acceptable results from a tackle.

If Seb is dropped after that game before others, it's more confirmation about what is valued at the club.

OK, so you're saying drop Steele then if we want Crouch/Clark to come in.
That's fine, but I just don't see it happening for the reasons I've mentioned. And I generally agree with you when it comes to tackles outside stoppage, but at stoppage I think tackles can be useful even without a free kick call, especially when we're outgunned which we pretty much always are.
I'm not one of the habitual anti-Sebbers, but he's nowhere near his best and changes will be made again I expect.

 

[The Jack]

All you need to do is change how you see it.

Father/sons, academy players etc aren't in reality in the draft.

They just get to the club they were always going to be funnelled to by having their name read out on draft night.

That's the reality.
You can't bemoan missing out on something you were never allowed to have a realistic shot at.

So yeah- look at the realities and then you get your wish...
We will get the 4th best player who is actually in the draft.

I phrased it incorrectly sorry. Would be nice to get the 4th best player in the country with the 4th pick in the draft. FS and Academy rules are an absolute joke, like pretty much every aspect of the AFL. Potluck. Collingwood, Geelong and Dogs won the Lotto and we couldn't even win a meat tray. And as we're all aware we're immune from luck. What is it? 152 years of mediocrity with a few outliers is testament to that.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Collard out for mine.

I like him but he's not quite ready, we could carry him if we were playing better footy and feeding him better supply.

Crouch in for Ross

I backed Bonner last week but agree he probably needs a spell also.

Membrey for Caminiti maybe a bit harsh on Hammer but need to reward the form in VFL

 

[littlecreatures]

Yesterday Seb offered more than Steele IMO. We can't score, Seb had two goal assists (excellent, considered kicks to Higgins), let's drop him. Does Steele tackle well? Lots of St Kilda tackles don't end up in a ball-up or a holding the ball free kick, the only two acceptable results from a tackle.

If Seb is dropped after that game before others, it's more confirmation about what is valued at the club.

This is a bit silly.

Jack Steele 11 contested possessions (S Ross 4), 4 score involvements (equal to S Ross), 10 marks (1 mark for Seb), 1 contested mark, 1 mark inside 50, 16 pressure acts (12 for Seb), 4 clearances (1 for Seb), 2 centre clearances, 2 tackles (Seb 0).

Surely there’s more prevailing issues than this.

 

[luca77]

I phrased it incorrectly sorry. Would be nice to get the 4th best player in the country with the 4th pick in the draft. FS and Academy rules are an absolute joke, like pretty much every aspect of the AFL. Potluck. Collingwood, Geelong and Dogs won the Lotto and we couldn't even win a meat tray. And as we're all aware we're immune from luck. What is it? 152 years of mediocrity with a few outliers is testament to that.

As a result, I believe we're blessed to have more appreciation of all the smaller things in life.
Winning a clearance, finding a target inside 50. These are our little emotional finals victories that supporters of successful clubs get little joy from.

I don't really believe it, but if I say it to myself often enough, you never know. Believing that could be a stepping stone to freedom and happiness, or a ticket to fairyland.

 

[The Punter]

This is a bit silly.

Jack Steele 11 contested possessions (S Ross 4), 4 score involvements (equal to S Ross), 10 marks (1 mark for Seb), 1 contested mark, 1 mark inside 50, 16 pressure acts (12 for Seb), 4 clearances (1 for Seb), 2 centre clearances, 2 tackles (Seb 0).

Surely there’s more prevailing issues than this.

Should we compare Seb's contested mark numbers to Max King's? The fact that Seb didn't attend a CBA yesterday should tell you they were playing somewhat different roles.

Steele is not as good as Seb kicking the ball inside 50 on the evidence of things seen. And we struggle to score.

I thought Steele losing weight was supposed to make it easier for him to run? Because out of Seb and El Capitano, only one of them was running as required in the last quarter.

Is Steele being held to a higher standard? Yep. He's the captain, he should be setting the standard. He SHOULD be held to a higher standard. If he doesn't want to be (or act like it), he can give the job to someone else.

 

[littlecreatures]

Should we compare Seb's contested mark numbers to Max King's? The fact that Seb didn't attend a CBA yesterday should tell you they were playing somewhat different roles.

Steele is not as good as Seb kicking the ball inside 50 on the evidence of things seen. And we struggle to score.

I thought Steele losing weight was supposed to make it easier for him to run? Because out of Seb and El Capitano, only one of them was running as required in the last quarter.

Is Steele being held to a higher standard? Yep. He's the captain, he should be setting the standard. He SHOULD be held to a higher standard. If he doesn't want to be (or act like it), he can give the job to someone else.

By all means, if you feel the need to compare Seb’s contested marks to Max Kings, knock yourself out lol.

Inside mids is a critical need right now, so if you’re going to hang your hat on keeping Ross in a side supposedly for entry to F50, we are seriously in a world of hurt.

We should be developing talent around Steele and the F50 who can transition the ball. If we’re relying on Seb Ross to do that, or alternatively Steele to do everything in the middle, that’s very alarming in itself.

 

[The_Steadier]

This is a bit silly.

Jack Steele 11 contested possessions (S Ross 4), 4 score involvements (equal to S Ross), 10 marks (1 mark for Seb), 1 contested mark, 1 mark inside 50, 16 pressure acts (12 for Seb), 4 clearances (1 for Seb), 2 centre clearances, 2 tackles (Seb 0).

Surely there’s more prevailing issues than this.

Pretty hard for seb to get a centre clearance when he wasn't in there even once.




Meanwhile steeles 23 centre bounce attendences for 2 clearances is gross.

As was marshalls 23 for 0; and
Dow 17 cbas for 1 clearance.

Yet again, jack sinclair showed he's basically the only bloke on our entire list capable of winning a centre clearance

(unless you love seeing roma grab the ball and slam it on his boot down the oppo defenders throat all day)



Sincs had his 4 centre clearances off 25 cbas.

 

[The Punter]

By all means, if you feel the need to compare Seb’s contested marks to Max Kings, knock yourself out lol.

Inside mids is a critical need right now, so if you’re going to hang your hat on keeping Ross in a side supposedly for entry to F50, we are seriously in a world of hurt.

We should be developing talent around Steele and the F50 who can transition the ball. If we’re relying on Seb Ross to do that, or alternatively Steele to do everything in the middle, that’s very alarming in itself.

Can I rely on Steele to act like a captain and be the first one to work back rather than the last?

And based on previous performance, relying on Seb for good forward 50 entries is a better bet than relying on Captain Jack for good forward 50 entries.

 

[luca77]

Pretty hard for seb to get a centre clearance when he wasn't in there even once.

View attachment 2002236


Meanwhile steeles 23 centre bounce attendences for 2 clearances is gross.

As was marshalls 23 for 0; and
Dow 17 cbas for 1 clearance.

Yet again, jack sinclair showed he's basically the only bloke on our entire list capable of winning a centre clearance

(unless you love seeing roma grab the ball and slam it on his boot down the oppo defenders throat all day)

View attachment 2002237

Sincs had his 4 centre clearances off 25 cbas.

Not being in there for a single CBA is hardly a convincing argument to suggest Seb will be in there next week with Crouch to come back.
Even in his current role, there'll be pressure coming. Clark has kicked some good goals lately and is a better ball user.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

The president needs to explain how the club intends to overcome the impossible challenge of bringing in talent when even with a high pick in a draft, GCS, GWS, Sydney and Brisbane have the first 25 picks on a yearly basis.

He's been agitating behind the scenes about the academies.

 

[The_Steadier]

Not being in there for a single CBA is hardly a convincing argument to suggest Seb will be in there next week with Crouch to come back.
Even in his current role, there'll be pressure coming. Clark has kicked some good goals lately and is a better ball user.

I wasn't suggesting seb would or should be in the centre square.
I just raised that in response to littlecreatures who compared sebs centre clearances to steeles.

 

[gringo2011]

All you say.

But, despite the slightly sarcastic comment about pick 3 - no it wont "save us", but it will deliver more talent.
Which is what we need much more of.

I'm not an expert on footy plans, and structures etc by any means, but all I could see yesterday was players guarding space and allowing so many easy opposition marks. Wouldn't man on man be the better tactic?

Geelong have pretty standard list apart from 2 absolute stars. They do have a big group of good solid well drilled talent though.

Tigers really only had Dusty that stood above the others. We probably just need that one star and a couple of more solid A graders to really be a serious contender. We also need that group of kids coming through up around 100 games so that are hardened consistent performers. Balancing the list up with some depth through the midfield and small forwards is needed too.

If we can nail pick 3 it goes along way towards building a future side that can challenge. The less we get right from here the further away we get.

 

[littlecreatures]

Pretty hard for seb to get a centre clearance when he wasn't in there even once.

View attachment 2002236


Meanwhile steeles 23 centre bounce attendences for 2 clearances is gross.

As was marshalls 23 for 0; and
Dow 17 cbas for 1 clearance.

Yet again, jack sinclair showed he's basically the only bloke on our entire list capable of winning a centre clearance

(unless you love seeing roma grab the ball and slam it on his boot down the oppo defenders throat all day)

View attachment 2002237

Sincs had his 4 centre clearances off 25 cbas.

Hence why Seb’s 0 centre clearances weren’t included as a point of comparison, it’s more the critical need that Steele fulfils there in the void of others supporting (he averages 5.7 clearances per game, 2nd in the squad, compared to Seb’s 3.2).

The reality is Seb was pulled from CBAs prior to this game as he couldn’t win a centre clearance for love or money. He averages 0.3 per game (14th best player for Saints) yet when we look at CBAs he’s 4th for the squad at 131 for the year.

This isn’t an attack on Seb. I just think time is passing him by which is the reality at the stage of his career. We need to be developing talent coming through which doesn’t make playing him any easier.

 

[littlecreatures]

I wasn't suggesting seb would or should be in the centre square.
I just raised that in response to littlecreatures who compared sebs centre clearances to steeles.

I highlighted Steele’s, given the fact he fulfils a need here, at no stage was a point of comparison made to Seb’s 0 centre clearances.