Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[bergholt]

To be clear I’m not saying turf Ross now, I’m not even saying he needs to make finals (again) in his 4 year term but he can’t just have a completely blank ledger on KPIs for the next 2 and 1/2 seasons, he needs to have some accountability and pressure somewhere.

What if - just as a hypothetical - the list was terrible and completely unbalanced at the start of a coach's 4 year contract?

What KPIs would you give a coach (or a list manager, for that matter) in that situation?

The problem with making those KPIs too short term is that you end up forcing them to play older players, stunt the development of kids, and trade for mediocre experienced players who'll paper over the cracks but not actually set strong foundations for the future. This is arguably what we've done for the past 13 years. We haven't wanted to "accept failure" so we've tried too hard to get short-term results at the cost of long-term success.

First thing to do when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole - stop digging.

We need to acknowledge what the situation is. If it's that the players are good but the coach is bad then sure, get rid of him. But I don't think there are many people out there who think we have a good list and it's just poorly coached. I think just about everyone realises the true position, even if they don't want to admit it.

So we just have to knuckle down and do what it takes for long term success. It's the only option at this point imo.

The next couple of years will be pain regardless of who the coach is. So I reckon RTB is as good as anyone else to be at the helm.

 

[Cairnsman]

The coach isn't the problem

Lack of access to talent is the problem.

Focusing on the coach is just a convenient distraction for the mind with a short concentration span.

Get in touch with Bassett and implore him to raise the pressure on the AFL to change the accademy rules.

 

[phantom13]

What if - just as a hypothetical - the list was terrible and completely unbalanced at the start of a coach's 4 year contract?

What KPIs would you give a coach (or a list manager, for that matter) in that situation?

The problem with making those KPIs too short term is that you end up forcing them to play older players, stunt the development of kids, and trade for mediocre experienced players who'll paper over the cracks but not actually set strong foundations for the future. This is arguably what we've done for the past 13 years. We haven't wanted to "accept failure" so we've tried too hard to get short-term results at the cost of long-term success.

First thing to do when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole - stop digging.

We need to acknowledge what the situation is. If it's that the players are good but the coach is bad then sure, get rid of him. But I don't think there are many people out there who think we have a good list and it's just poorly coached. I think just about everyone realises the true position, even if they don't want to admit it.

So we just have to knuckle down and do what it takes for long term success. It's the only option at this point imo.

The next couple of years will be pain regardless of who the coach is. So I reckon RTB is as good as anyone else to be at the helm.

So your solution is just do away with any form of progress and give a coach who has never won anything carte Blanche.

Bold call but why not, sounds very St.Kilda to me.

 

[phantom13]

Not to single you out Berg but this is exactly the sort of cult like adherence to Ross I’m talking about.

I haven’t even set a kpi, I’ve just suggested that in a four year tenure he should probably have SOME level of accountability and even that gets met with resistance.

My post literally says he needs some accountability, in a four year stint, and that’s too much for some people.

It’s comical.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I say this with the greatest of respect but we really really need to quit with the “strap in” stuff.

If Ross just gets his 4 years, regardless of anything, results, development, progression, draft results etc. it’s EXACTLY what’s wrong with this club. I think Kane Cornes said it about Richmond and Yze, that club and it’s supporters won’t accept their shot performances and lack of effort and progression because they are a big club and won’t cop that shit.

We need to have more of that mindset. To be clear I’m not saying turf Ross now, I’m not even saying he needs to make finals (again) in his 4 year term but he can’t just have a completely blank ledger on KPIs for the next 2 and 1/2 seasons, he needs to have some accountability and pressure somewhere.

What absolute blather.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Irrelevant and only serves as a convenient distraction ...access to talent is the single most biggest issue our club has standing between us and success... not a coach.

Interesting Footy Classified tonight.
Played a clip of Bassett in 2022 saying that, although he hoped not, there was a big chance of us going backward before going forward, but that they would maintain the course they’d set.

 

[phantom13]

What absolute blather.

What a compelling and insightful response. Always a richer discussion when you’re involved scrap.

 

[ScrappyDo]

Gineb the Zebs win yesterday, what changes would you make?

Membrey for Caminiti
Hotton for Collard
Crouch for Ross
Ari for Bonner

Keeler and Clark close as well IMO

Hammer stays. The rest would be ideal.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The coach isn't the problem

Lack of access to talent is the problem.

Focusing on the coach is just a convenient distraction for the mind with a short concentration span.

Get in touch with Bassett and implore him to raise the pressure on the AFL to change the accademy rules.

Again, mentioned on Footy Classified tonight that Bassett was doing just that.
F/S and Academy inequities etc.
Also about Marvel. All club contracts come to an end there this year. And that big clubs want to play at the G. Caro even mentioned us a potential big club, whether we are winning or losing because of the latent support we have.

Sorry, I’m regurgitating if you saw it too.

 

[Cairnsman]

Again, mentioned on Footy Classified tonight that Bassett was doing just that.
F/S and Academy inequities etc.
Also about Marvel. All club contracts come to an end there this year. And that big clubs want to play at the G. Caro even mentioned us a potential big club, whether we are winning or losing because of the latent support we have.

Sorry, I’m regurgitating if you saw it too.

Good, all Saints supporters should want this and throw any encouragement behind the Prez to push this hard...its the single biggest issue between us and success...access to talent.

Don't be a sheeple people...don't fall for the easy option and blame a coach. We've done that to death and it's gotten us nowhere for 150 years...we need access to talent and there has never been a worse time to be at the bottom of the ladder

Contact the Prez and implore him to ramp up the pressure on the AFL...that's how you can help.

 

[littlecreatures]

Interesting Footy Classified tonight.
Played a clip of Bassett in 2022 saying that, although he hoped not, there was a big chance of us going backward before going forward, but that they would maintain the course they’d set.

I’m not sure I have it in me to watch footy classified during this form slump. They actually said that? I had Kornes, Caro and co digging the knives in further.

 

[Diehard Saint]

I’m not sure I have it in me to watch footy classified during this form slump. They actually said that? I had Kornes, Caro and co digging the knives in further.

I was half working, half listening, but even Cornes wasn’t too bad…maybe he’s said it all before.
I think Lloyd said that Richmond is closer to a flag than us and that Norths kids were way better…

 

[littlecreatures]

I was half working, half listening, but even Cornes wasn’t too bad…maybe he’s said it all before.
I think Lloyd said that Richmond is closer to a flag than us and that Norths kids were way better…

The same Richmond that hasn’t even bottomed out their list and doesn’t have depth of youth to regenerate. They’re like Geelong, but can’t win.

 

[Miha]

The coach isn't the problem

Lack of access to talent is the problem.

Focusing on the coach is just a convenient distraction for the mind with a short concentration span.

Get in touch with Bassett and implore him to raise the pressure on the AFL to change the accademy rules.

Which our intrepid leader had already done according to Caro

 

[Brian Oblivion]

Good, all Saints supporters should want this and throw any encouragement behind the Prez to push this hard...its the single biggest issue between us and success...access to talent.

Don't be a sheeple people...don't fall for the easy option and blame a coach. We've done that to death and it's gotten us nowhere for 150 years...we need access to talent and there has never been a worse time to be at the bottom of the ladder

Contact the Prez and implore him to ramp up the pressure on the AFL...that's how you can help.

Maybe the Prez can have a word to Paul Bassat who is on the commission ? Could actually be his bro !!!

 

[Dr Spaceman]

The pro RTB and anti RTB crews are unlikely to change their views.

Perhaps as we keep losing the pro group will lose an adherer or two, and if and when we improve they gain some new members.

But what is happening now is not entirely unexpected.

I may be getting old and my memory may not be as good as it once was, but I clearly remember the pressers around the time of RTB’s appointment and talk of list exploration and the need to perhaps go back to go forward. And talk of the list perhaps having many weaknesses. None of this is new.

Last year was a (pleasant) unexpected surprise, however there’s little point bemoaning our lack of quality mids, and screaming we need to draft mids, mids and more mids, and at the same time raging about our performances in 2024. The lack of top line mids is the fault of many people, but Ross is not one of them.

We’re all very disappointed, extremely demotivated and frustrated as hell.

However to simply put it down to RTB being past it, and his game plan being outdated, is being too simplistic. My failing memory recalls the boss indicating the current game plan as being devised by the assistant coaches anyway.

I support the RTB appointment however that doesn’t preclude me from saying the Saints, at least in the last month or so, are very frustrating to watch. And that it’s very depressing when I do watch. And hard to pick yourself afterwards.

But I do try to limit those feelings to the 2 1/2 hours on game day.

Hang in everyone

 

[Diehard Saint]

Maybe the Prez can have a word to Paul Bassat who is on the commission ? Could actually be his bro !!!

Is his brother.

 

[Brian Oblivion]

Is his brother.

So surely he also barracks for the Saints ? ffs .....

 

[moirae42]

Who here, that saw anything of the preseason we had... could see this coming?

 

[Mat Mann]

The pro RTB and anti RTB crews are unlikely to change their views.

Perhaps as we keep losing the pro group will lose an adherer or two, and if and when we improve they gain some new members.

But what is happening now is not entirely unexpected.

I may be getting old and my memory may not be as good as it once was, but I clearly remember the pressers around the time of RTB’s appointment and talk of list exploration and the need to perhaps go back to go forward. And talk of the list perhaps having many weaknesses. None of this is new.

Last year was a (pleasant) unexpected surprise, however there’s little point bemoaning our lack of quality mids, and screaming we need to draft mids, mids and more mids, and at the same time raging about our performances in 2024. The lack of top line mids is the fault of many people, but Ross is not one of them.

We’re all very disappointed, extremely demotivated and frustrated as hell.

However to simply put it down to RTB being past it, and his game plan being outdated, is being too simplistic. My failing memory recalls the boss indicating the current game plan as being devised by the assistant coaches anyway.

I support the RTB appointment however that doesn’t preclude me from saying the Saints, at least in the last month or so, are very frustrating to watch. And that it’s very depressing when I do watch. And hard to pick yourself afterwards.

But I do try to limit those feelings to the 2 1/2 hours on game day.

Hang in everyone

I'll support Ross in his 4 years, but I don't and won't support Ross surrounding himself with his men and not StKilda's future going forward. Dalrymple is a good start and I think he's earmarked as list boss going fwd, but Mission as Footy Dept boss is baffling, our medical dept was supposed to be better and we've had nothing but continual long-term injuries since.

Toce seems to be getting huge wraps atm, shame nothing was said about him whilst he was here, but it stumps me how we could not work out how to keep him and add Dalrymple. never hear it said you can have too many competent staff members.

We knew our list lacked mids, quality mids. Windy is a good addition to a midfield but he's never going to be the main man, for that, we need top picks. Pou still has time and I'm not writing him off, but he needs another 3 years, and any kid we recruit end of the year will need time unless they are the next Bont or Cripps.

Ross is as decent a choice as any to take the heat whilst we get those players in, and it's going to take 2 or 3 years to do that, what's gained by knifing him. If shit still stinks next year, find a successor and do a transition with a better-positioned list

 

[Mat Mann]

Who here, that saw anything of the preseason we had... could see this coming?

its confidence, injuries, trust issues. Windy is the only consistent mid all year, Fwd line is all over the place with personnel, we're playing like crap for sure, but it's not a lost cause, form slumps bring out character, helps make list decisions easier.

We're terrible, but its not as if this list hasn't been terrible before.

 

[stfan]

The pro RTB and anti RTB crews are unlikely to change their views.

Perhaps as we keep losing the pro group will lose an adherer or two, and if and when we improve they gain some new members.

But what is happening now is not entirely unexpected.

I may be getting old and my memory may not be as good as it once was, but I clearly remember the pressers around the time of RTB’s appointment and talk of list exploration and the need to perhaps go back to go forward. And talk of the list perhaps having many weaknesses. None of this is new.

Last year was a (pleasant) unexpected surprise, however there’s little point bemoaning our lack of quality mids, and screaming we need to draft mids, mids and more mids, and at the same time raging about our performances in 2024. The lack of top line mids is the fault of many people, but Ross is not one of them.

We’re all very disappointed, extremely demotivated and frustrated as hell.

However to simply put it down to RTB being past it, and his game plan being outdated, is being too simplistic. My failing memory recalls the boss indicating the current game plan as being devised by the assistant coaches anyway.

I support the RTB appointment however that doesn’t preclude me from saying the Saints, at least in the last month or so, are very frustrating to watch. And that it’s very depressing when I do watch. And hard to pick yourself afterwards.

But I do try to limit those feelings to the 2 1/2 hours on game day.

Hang in everyone

Your failing memory is actually pretty much spot on.


However a precis of our situation prior to RTB and Co arriving is:

• Our list was shit, and needed major change
• Hitting the draft hard would be a key part of that
• Our football department was shit and needed major change
• Long hall was more important than short term gain

Now anytime a club states that it is going to rebuild via the draft, that means that success is not going to be quick turn around.

Moreso for us as we have not been low enough to get access to the cream. The AFL FS and Academy Rorting for some clubs further weakening our hand.

Too many on here last season misinterpreted last year's success as meaning we were n the rise straight away. Whereas RTB and Co actually doubled down harder, cut away our depth to get more kids in. That culling then helped to spiral us down this year due to our raft of injuries and suspensions.


Many of the Lethlean Era quick fixes are now all looking sickly and most and gone, or will be soon. Next season maybe only Hill, Butler and Higgins will remain. We have again wasted years of list building, though the last several draft periods are looking ok. BUT we are going with middling picks versus some clubs having top end picks.

 

[stfan]

Who here, that saw anything of the preseason we had... could see this coming?

???

Preseason started ok, but then the injuries just grew and grew and with Webster getting pinged for 7 games that just that a broke the camels back, along with the injuries that continued to mount. Well that and St Kilda evidently being the only club that the AFL's new declared head high hard line re penalties was applied to.


I had us making the 8 IF everything went well. Very little has gone well for us this season.

 

[bergholt]

Not to single you out Berg but this is exactly the sort of cult like adherence to Ross I’m talking about.

I haven’t even set a kpi, I’ve just suggested that in a four year tenure he should probably have SOME level of accountability and even that gets met with resistance.

My post literally says he needs some accountability, in a four year stint, and that’s too much for some people.

It’s comical.

Ok, so name your KPIs by which we should judge him?

In any area of business or management KPIs are a double edged sword. They’re mostly more damaging than useful because they attempt to align long term goals (the actual good of the organisation) with short term metrics (which we hope are leading indicators of future success). This can lead to sales sandbagging or short-sighted cost cutting or selling productive assets for a sugar hit of cash or underspending on training and innovation - amongst many many other pathologies.

Sometimes you have to go down to go up. The best leaders realise this and can take short term pain for long term gain - when their incentives are set up for that.

Again, I don’t know if RTB is the right guy, but at least he and the pres and the list managers seem to be on the same page with the necessity for temporary pain.

So to reiterate my question - what are the KPIs you’d set up to align short term on field performance with the long term good of the club?

 

[Sully111]

Is it the list?

Is it the coaching?

It's both.

But if you honestly think the coaches are currently getting anywhere near the best out of this list, you're trippin'.