Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[Cairnsman]

Yeh can’t really be correct on opinions but sure thing.

But good on you for using 12000 words to prove your point.

 

[Sully111]

Its what happens when you get yourself all worked up and don't want to consider other people's POVs and then get all abusive. As I said I can't help you if you aren't willing to acknowledge widely accepted views. Lyon was given a mandate to rebuild and here we are. Clearly you dont accept it and are wound up about it and letting it get to you.

More drivel from TrollyMcTrollFace

We are about the worst team in the comp to watch

Lyon is our coach

The list is not as bad as we are playing.

The coaches should be held accountable.

FMD

 

[phantom13]

More drivel from TrollyMcTrollFace

We are about the worst team in the comp to watch

Lyon is our coach

The list is not as bad as we are playing.

The coaches should be held accountable.

FMD

Are you calling me trolly mc troll face?

 

[Sully111]

Are you calling me trolly mc troll face?

Haha

no

The person I quoted

this....

We are about the worst team in the comp to watch

Lyon is our coach

The list is not as bad as we are playing.

The coaches should be held accountable.

FMD

is what I actually think

 

[phantom13]

Haha

no

The person I quoted

this....

We are about the worst team in the comp to watch

Lyon is our coach

The list is not as bad as we are playing.

The coaches should be held accountable.

FMD

is what I actually think

Hahaha gotcha. Confusing cause that was all mostly my thoughts.

 

[Sully111]

Hahaha gotcha. Confusing cause that was all mostly my thoughts.

I honestly can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading.

It's pretty simple really. I wonder if some people actually watch us play.

But yeah... he's a troll mate.

 

[Sully111]

Us going from finishing top 6 to not being top 4 doesn't mean the coaching is suspect.

Us going from top 6 (Regardless of draw etc) to playing some of the most insipid lacking in skill ugly football you'll ever see does.

We are HORRID to watch

 

[phantom13]

I don’t think he’s trolling, I don’t think any of the cult of Ross crew are trolling.

To some level I admire their commitment and belief, I don’t share it but I appreciate it.

I also don’t think there are that many true rossheads their just very vocal.

As I’m not blaming Ross for all our current woes I think most people realise it’s more than just one thing.

 

[austinnn]

So, if we’re going to boil this down to the crux, you actually think Ross Lyon lacks accountability right now?

He’s under significant pressure right now, at least we know externally given media and public’s attention lately around poor performances, and I’d hate to know what that looks like internally with a playing group at its lowest.

It’s pretty obvious the playing group overachieved last year, that said, there’s a lot of factors which go into having a successful season, and also having a negative season likely this one.

Good point. Caroline Wilson mentioned that Ross stood before the board recently and "conceded that they weren't performing up to expectations and there was disappointment" - so whatever you infer from that, it's clear thst he is somewhat accountable. Bassat's actions over the last two years imply he is a pro-active president who wants to be kept in the loop and won't settle for assurances, and he accepted that he had to break his commitment to Ratten when he saw it was a lost cause or buried cost or whatever.

Ross I would think actually welcomes accountability, his press conferences are specific rather than the vague platitudes of the coaches before him, and he welcomes commentary and feedback from journos, nuffie supporters and the board.

I would say he surrounds himself with people he has worked with because he knows he can work with them, not because he wants Yes Men.

I could be wrong, but I don't think accountability is one of our problems.

 

[littlecreatures]

Under performing but over achieving…

Interesting take.

I’ll be as simple as possible.

If we’re doing a quick on the fly drop (implement this gameplan, one year at the draft, grab an FA) to contend in 2025/2026. Sign me up, great idea and the current pain is fine.

If this is a proper gut and rebuild the whole lot and as per Cairnsmans 10 year stick fat plan then Ross is a snake oil salesman and it won’t be 10 it’ll be 15+ if ever.

I had a bunch of other shit going in with that (concern the gameplan is doing more harm than good for one) but that’s the crux.

Ultimately no one really knows which of those Ross has been tasked with regardless of what they say so really we’re all just speculating anyway.

2 different time periods mate. The footy department he inherited was under performing in the years preceding his arrival. How on earth Ross got them humming last year in the scope of all the restructuring and this list I really don’t know. That needs to be acknowledged.

I think you’ve already tried making it simple to no avail to be completely honest. It doesn’t stack up. Personally, I don’t think it’ll be a full 10 year rebuild but history does say it takes minimum 8 years to build a performing culture and win a flag - Geelong early to late 2000s is another example, could even chuck Richmond late 2000s to 2017 there about. That’s time taken for growth and change vs. time taken for a full rebuild (2 different things, don’t think we are the latter, but others might think differently).

We need to be realistic with what a game plan even means and looks like right now with the extent of youth coming through. It’s going to be education heavy, readjustments, teething, peaks and troughs.

Well, we don’t know what goes on inside the 4 walls, what we do know is this is a regenerating list, it’s not going to be linear from here, there’s been too many match day changes this year and injuries at formative stages which has thrown this side off. It’s a temperamental side right now.

 

[Cairnsman]

I don’t think he’s trolling, I don’t think any of the cult of Ross crew are trolling.

To some level I admire their commitment and belief, I don’t share it but I appreciate it.

I also don’t think there are that many true rossheads their just very vocal.

As I’m not blaming Ross for all our current woes I think most people realise it’s more than just one thing.

Whoa whoa whoa there Mr 12000 words.

I hope you are not gaslightjng me there, I am far from being part of your so called "Cult of Ross"

Granted I don't yell 12000 words in an hysterical fashion to make some irrelevant POV, however whilst I think Ross is a good coach, I most certainly don't think he alone will bring in the silverware, I'm extremely big on the belief that premierships are won from the...

SUM OF ALL PARTS

Now bonus points for guessing what I think is the most important part, the hardest part even...that's right, procuring that magical number of around 25 talented and conditioned individuals who can still be standing in the last 2 minutes of a grand final. It's very hard that part, good coaches are a lot easier to come by, do you know why?, cause there is only one of them. Know your history and know your statistics and some of this will become obvious to you. Maybe even become well read on successful international coaches of elite sporting teams.

Now as you were flipper.

 

[Sully111]

I don’t think he’s trolling,

Still think that?

 

[phantom13]

Still think that?

Nah good call.

 

[phantom13]

2 different time periods mate. The footy department he inherited was under performing in the years preceding his arrival. How on earth Ross got them humming last year in the scope of all the restructuring and this list I really don’t know. That needs to be acknowledged.

I think you’ve already tried making it simple to no avail to be completely honest. It doesn’t stack up. Personally, I don’t think it’ll be a full 10 year rebuild but history does say it takes minimum 8 years to build a performing culture and win a flag - Geelong early to late 2000s is another example, could even chuck Richmond late 2000s to 2017 there about. That’s time taken for growth and change vs. time taken for a full rebuild (2 different things, don’t think we are the latter, but others might think differently).

We need to be realistic with what a game plan even means and looks like right now with the extent of youth coming through. It’s going to be education heavy, readjustments, teething, peaks and troughs.

Well, we don’t know what goes on inside the 4 walls, what we do know is this is a regenerating list, it’s not going to be linear from here, there’s been too many match day changes this year and injuries at formative stages which has thrown this side off. It’s a temperamental side right now.

I think there is a fair cross over in time periods though. He took over at the end of 22 and made some minor changes, then at the end of 23 he pretty much installed his crew.

To me our ladder position in 23 is simple enough to explain. Ross wasnt Rossballing in the first 2/3rds of the season, the players were being assessed (by Ross own admission) and played freely which exploited our strengths. Now im not suggesting we should just go back to that full time because even with all that we were still only a middling team, it just demonsrates that the list is total shit which some (not you) on here continue to assert.

I made it simple because thats specifically what you asked for?

I honestly don’t know what the point being made is anymore.

If you dont agree with me thats fine, i dont expect everyone too.

I think (reading into what youre saying) were actually in broad agreement that weve got a few things we need to fix (im at pains constantly to note that our current woes are not ALL Ross' fault) where we disagree seems to be on whether this is a complete rebuild or not and ultimately neither of us knows for sure, were just speculating based on what we see.

I can respect you think its an 8 year job, i hope youre wrong, but i also cant say categorically that you are and youve engaged and discussed civilly so all good.

I would only note that if its 8 years it may as well be 10 and if its 10 it may as well be 20. Tassie looms large and is going to make anyone in full rebuild during this period suffer for a long time.

 

[gringo2011]

2 different time periods mate. The footy department he inherited was under performing in the years preceding his arrival. How on earth Ross got them humming last year in the scope of all the restructuring and this list I really don’t know. That needs to be acknowledged.

I think you’ve already tried making it simple to no avail to be completely honest. It doesn’t stack up. Personally, I don’t think it’ll be a full 10 year rebuild but history does say it takes minimum 8 years to build a performing culture and win a flag - Geelong early to late 2000s is another example, could even chuck Richmond late 2000s to 2017 there about. That’s time taken for growth and change vs. time taken for a full rebuild (2 different things, don’t think we are the latter, but others might think differently).

We need to be realistic with what a game plan even means and looks like right now with the extent of youth coming through. It’s going to be education heavy, readjustments, teething, peaks and troughs.

Well, we don’t know what goes on inside the 4 walls, what we do know is this is a regenerating list, it’s not going to be linear from here, there’s been too many match day changes this year and injuries at formative stages which has thrown this side off. It’s a temperamental side right now.

There is an assumption there that we are starting at year zero. Our list build is about 3/4 done already. I think we get back to mid table next year and probably realistically have a challenge mode somewhere between 2026 and 2028. If everything goes right that isn't unreasonable.

Sydney have stayed in finals for a long time but they also spend a fair amount of time rebuilding from mid table . I think that's the model we want to follow.

 

[gringo2011]

I think there is a fair cross over in time periods though. He took over at the end of 22 and made some minor changes, then at the end of 23 he pretty much installed his crew.

To me our ladder position in 23 is simple enough to explain. Ross wasnt Rossballing in the first 2/3rds of the season, the players were being assessed (by Ross own admission) and played freely which exploited our strengths. Now im not suggesting we should just go back to that full time because even with all that we were still only a middling team, it just demonsrates that the list is total shit which some (not you) on here continue to assert.

I made it simple because thats specifically what you asked for?


If you dont agree with me thats fine, i dont expect everyone too.

I think (reading into what youre saying) were actually in broad agreement that weve got a few things we need to fix (im at pains constantly to note that our current woes are not ALL Ross' fault) where we disagree seems to be on whether this is a complete rebuild or not and ultimately neither of us knows for sure, were just speculating based on what we see.

I can respect you think its an 8 year job, i hope youre wrong, but i also cant say categorically that you are and youve engaged and discussed civilly so all good.

I would only note that if its 8 years it may as well be 10 and if its 10 it may as well be 20. Tassie looms large and is going to make anyone in full rebuild during this period suffer for a long time.

New coach bounce also happens. Players all want to prove themselves.

I'm confident that with a good injury run we would have been around the same mark. Last year we had a fast start and then limped into finals.

So many of last years best players have been either injured or down on form this year.

 

[phantom13]

New coach bounce also happens. Players all want to prove themselves.

I'm confident that with a good injury run we would have been around the same mark. Last year we had a fast start and then limped into finals.

So many of last years best players have been either injured or down on form this year.

Yeh 100%, as i said, last year we were a 6-10 team (ladder position) and we hit out ceiling for a bunch reasons, one of which was the list being okay, about a 6-10 list.

Which, really, is my only major point, plenty of people are trying to say the list is complete dogshit and Ross couldnt possibly make this list play finals, well he can, cause he did, we dont wanna be hitting finals in 6th though so what do we need to jump from 6 to top 4. Tweak of the gameplan and tweak of the list.

Hes mid tweak of gameplan right now and its ****ing horrendous to watch, i hope this pain is worth it longterm but i have my concerns, mostly because the modern flag winners arent playing this dour defense only plan but Ross has forgotten more about footy than ill ever know so carry on.

Were also mid tweak of the list, few out last year, few in this year and were building.

The whole stupid argument started over if this is a full 10 year rebuild or a 2ish year on the fly top up. I think its the latter and im saying if its the former, with Tassie looming and our track record, were ****ing cooked for more like 20 years.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeh 100%, as i said, last year we were a 6-10 team (ladder position) and we hit out ceiling for a bunch reasons, one of which was the list being okay, about a 6-10 list.

Which, really, is my only major point, plenty of people are trying to say the list is complete dogshit and Ross couldnt possibly make this list play finals, well he can, cause he did, we dont wanna be hitting finals in 6th though so what do we need to jump from 6 to top 4. Tweak of the gameplan and tweak of the list.

Hes mid tweak of gameplan right now and its ****ing horrendous to watch, i hope this pain is worth it longterm but i have my concerns, mostly because the modern flag winners arent playing this dour defense only plan but Ross has forgotten more about footy than ill ever know so carry on.

Were also mid tweak of the list, few out last year, few in this year and were building.

The whole stupid argument started over if this is a full 10 year rebuild or a 2ish year on the fly top up. I think its the latter and im saying if its the former, with Tassie looming and our track record, were ****ing cooked for more like 20 years.

I'm not worried this time. I spend way to much energy catastrophising about the stupid moves we make. I think this is a blip and we'll fall temporarily. Everything we've done in drafting and recruiting in the last 3 years has looked really sensible and disciplined.

Under Richo and Trout we made moves that were high risk and low reward with no obvious plan. We at least have a structure and vision in place. It doesn't guarantee anything but at least it gives you a chance to move forward.

I'm remaining positive because I think we've done a lot of structural repair work that you don't see. If we were rebuilding before it was a termite infested weatherboard that we kept slapping paint and wallpaper over. This time we've re-stumped and paid some experts to design the extension.

Richmond built the backroom before the list and it was the best investment they ever made. They went from embarrassing **** up to a powerhouse that other clubs modelled off.

 

[The_Steadier]

Many times we have players out forward of the ball and we hit up the melbourne defender. However when Nas or henry gets it they somehow always seem to hit the kick.

Yep. All it takes is one weak link in an attacking chain of disposals- and it all unravels.
It is incredibly rare for us to NOT need to use at least one weak link (ie somebody likely to really scrub a kick or handball- even if they are not under pressure) every time we try and attack.

These weak links are absolutely destroying any chance we have of kicking a winning score.

Our opponents don't need to do anything- they just need to wait until we stuff ourselves up (often under no direct pressure)- and then they pounce on the turnover.

Ross has us playing the right way- but it requires bare minimum average/decent hand and foot skills across the whole midfield.
We don't have anything close to that

 

[gringo2011]

Yep. All it takes is one weak link in an attacking chain of disposals- and it all unravels.
It is incredibly rare for us to NOT need to use at least one weak link (ie somebody likely to really scrub a kick or handball- even if they are not under pressure) every time we try and attack.

These weak links are absolutely destroying any chance we have of kicking a winning score.

Our opponents don't need to do anything- they just need to wait until we stuff ourselves up (often under no direct pressure)- and then they pounce on the turnover.

Ross has us playing the right way- but it requires bare minimum average/decent hand and foot skills across the whole midfield.
We don't have anything close to that

You'd think we'd make some changes how we set up inside 50. We seem to bring the ball up well and then that last kick inside 50 seems to go straight to the opposition interceptor, out of bounds or to a contest.

I've never seen a side kick the ball out of bounds in the same spot so regularly. I think it's probably the forwards leading out really wide into the pocket to find space to be fair but bloody frustrating.

Having a tall at the top of the square would make sense and then having a couple of set plays to draw out the defence and isolate a couple of forwards.

 

[Circus]

Yep. All it takes is one weak link in an attacking chain of disposals- and it all unravels.
It is incredibly rare for us to NOT need to use at least one weak link (ie somebody likely to really scrub a kick or handball- even if they are not under pressure) every time we try and attack.

These weak links are absolutely destroying any chance we have of kicking a winning score.

Our opponents don't need to do anything- they just need to wait until we stuff ourselves up (often under no direct pressure)- and then they pounce on the turnover.

Ross has us playing the right way- but it requires bare minimum average/decent hand and foot skills across the whole midfield.
We don't have anything close to that

That is exactly what I saw happen all game. I went to my first game at the G for some years and had fantastic seats, just behind big legend Stewie Loewe. We had some brilliant hand ball chains attacking the forward 50 with speed and whoops, its a turnover, defenders out of position and Demons got an easy goal.

Or we were defending a ball from a centre clearance and it took 5/6/7/8 shocking handballs before eventually losing it.........for an easy goal. Often the first handball was so bad that the receiving player had just enough time to get away another handball under great pressure to a player who had just enough time to get it away under great pressure....ad infinitum before the Demons pressure enabled them to take the ball. By which time our blokes were also stuffed, frustrated, angry and downhearted.

Nothing made me angrier than Bonner's scrubbed kick though. He'd fought hard for the ball, had moved it forward 20+ metres or so while showing some real skill to get it through multiple opponents, grabbed the ball, looked for a short option and completely stuffed the kick. He should have banged it 60 metres to the goal square and not allow McDonald, May or anyone other defender the chance to set up.

All bloody game our turnovers were atrocious. That is not due to coaching. For all the comments about our game plan, injuries, inexperience etc, our skills under pressure were so bad and when we delivered the ball up the ground it was far too often to a player out far too wide to be able to put into the forward 50 without the long bomb to disaster. Why do our forwards not lead, especially to provide decoy options. Owens did once but missed the goal, ditto, Sharman. Higgins did an extraordinary job to mark it as many times as he did as not one kick to him gave him an easy mark. He had to use all of his skill to beat his opponent, and far too many times, multiple bigger opponents which he simply can't do.

I didn't have the opportunity of losing my voice celebrating goals that put us in front, or further in front, and that really pissed me off!!!

 

[Nutsngum]

All bloody game our turnovers were atrocious. That is not due to coaching. For all the comments about our game plan, injuries, inexperience etc, our skills under pressure were so bad and when we delivered the ball up the ground it was far too often to a player out far too wide to be able to put into the forward 50 without the long bomb to disaster. Why do our forwards not lead, especially to provide decoy options. Owens did once but missed the goal, ditto, Sharman. Higgins did an extraordinary job to mark it as many times as he did as not one kick to him gave him an easy mark. He had to use all of his skill to beat his opponent, and far too many times, multiple bigger opponents which he simply can't do.

I didn't have the opportunity of losing my voice celebrating goals that put us in front, or further in front, and that really pissed me off!!!

Our ability to deal with pressure is our big undoing right at this moment. Getting tackles is one thing as that is there to prevent scoring which we are mostly still good at, but getting past the opposing team effectively is a big issue at the moment.

I think our forwards are getting sucked out wide as our opponents have been good at denying space in our forward line and its hard to break that down without two things which is a contested marking forward that can smash a pack and effective crumbing forwards to take advantage of chaos ball. Memrey not playing as well these days has hurt this as he COULD take a pack mark (not really crashing it, but hes plucked many marks out of a pack) and Caminiti is just not mature enough physically or developed his craft enough to be that kind of crash player.

You combine that with pressure on the ball carrier and it really just falls apart.

Higgin's marked those because despite it looking hard they were kicks made to HIS advantage by being put over his defenders head. Higgins is actually a really good mark for his size. Had his defender tried to punch the ball it may have worked better for them or he may have given away front on contact. Either way it works out far better for us.

 

[phantom13]

I'm not worried this time. I spend way to much energy catastrophising about the stupid moves we make. I think this is a blip and we'll fall temporarily. Everything we've done in drafting and recruiting in the last 3 years has looked really sensible and disciplined.

Under Richo and Trout we made moves that were high risk and low reward with no obvious plan. We at least have a structure and vision in place. It doesn't guarantee anything but at least it gives you a chance to move forward.

I'm remaining positive because I think we've done a lot of structural repair work that you don't see. If we were rebuilding before it was a termite infested weatherboard that we kept slapping paint and wallpaper over. This time we've re-stumped and paid some experts to design the extension.

Richmond built the backroom before the list and it was the best investment they ever made. They went from embarrassing **** up to a powerhouse that other clubs modelled off.

Im about as concerned about the whole thing as i am about the end of the world TBH, its just an outlet for discussion.

My concern about this ****ing shitful gameplan isnt gonna change them playing it and im not staying up at night thinking about it.

 

[gringo2011]

Im about as concerned about the whole thing as i am about the end of the world TBH, its just an outlet for discussion.

My concern about this ****ing shitful gameplan isnt gonna change them playing it and im not staying up at night thinking about it.

I think having Crouch back makes it easier to play on our own terms so expect the style to improve with a second quality mid.

It's a horrible game plan but if we were converting goals everything would look prettier. I haven't really seen any Saints footy in the last decade that's been inspiring so just not losing would be good start.

 

[phantom13]

I think having Crouch back makes it easier to play on our own terms so expect the style to improve with a second quality mid.

It's a horrible game plan but if we were converting goals everything would look prettier. I haven't really seen any Saints footy in the last decade that's been inspiring so just not losing would be good start.

Im not even particularly worried about losing games right now, the worst outcome would be for us to go on some mystical run and finish 9th or really even 6-9th right now.

The path is clear(ish) to me with what were doing, it confuses me people who think this is a full 10 year rebuild because i just cant really see what were doing that would indicate that at all. Whilst i dont love some elements of it (gamestyle etc) I like you have faith in the club now that i havent had for a long time, thats not gonna stop me from chatting on here about shit i do and dont like.