Autopsy Round 13... cats 16.4 def Dogs 5.13

[Mattdougie]

"Try and actually watch footy"

Just layer the condescension on a little bit thicker, pal. Embarrassing.

Jong was fine. Far from disgraced tonight.

Just returning serve mate

Too many people look at stats and think they prove or disprove a good game.

If you get time or have the inclination go back and watch the centre bounces. Watch the amount of times our players got sucked to a ball they couldn't get and left a cats player out the back, the amount of times our mids went to ground while cats players stood up, watch their work on spread as opposed to ours, watch their blocks and body work.

I won't name players and this isn't about only Jong but just watch these things and the goals that resulted from this and then make your own conclusions.

And then for fun go back and watch the players that don't do well previous games from last year and see if they have improved or changed their methods

Then come back and abuse me if you like

 

[ScragCity]

10 pages in and we are still discussing Jong. I think its time to take a break from this board...

 

[Wetdog]

My problem is with pretty much everything he does but I'm not drowning the thread again

You don't like who he is, and you think he is selected as a 'marketing' ploy (which you've said in the past).

Jong's performance tonight wasn't worthy of a Brownlow vote, and he wasn't in our best three to five best players, but he put in a performance he can be proud of, and can hold his head high.

 

[Northernsoul74]

My problem is with pretty much everything he does but I'm not drowning the thread again

The team was crap tonite and half the reason for that was the fact we have so many out we have to play blokes that arnt up to it.

If you think that bringing any player in and then they arnt worst on ground and are better than Bont on the night means they deserve to stay in then sorry mate you really have no idea.

Hard to disagree. I'm not a Jong hater but as a team we don't play well when he plays and he seems to have a negative effect on players around him.

 

[Northernsoul74]

You don't like who he is, and you think he is selected as a 'marketing' ploy (which you've said in the past).

Jong's performance tonight wasn't worthy of a Brownlow vote, and he wasn't in our best three to five best players, but he put in a performance he can be proud of, and can hold his head high.

Do you not think there is a link to how poorly the team and other individuals play when Jong plays? Even when the stats says he does ok.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I want to be able to discuss on this thread whether or not tactically we were found out by our tendency to go backwards and sideways, and our nature of over-possessing the ball and being indirect to goal, and whether or not Geelong was able to exploit that with a taller defence and overlap run.

Instead I'm reading potshots at individual players who actually played well by individuals who have a clear bias and bickering and arguing. I'm done from this thread.

 

[immortalmike]

Do you not think there is a link to how poorly the team and other individuals play when Jong plays? Even when the stats says he does ok.

Its called playing depth. We have a full squad I doubt he plays.

 

[TMoney22]

Well cuck that. Just got back from first day of electric daisy carnival in Vegas. and I had a feeling this might have been the result. Without watching , Jong is definitely not finals material but a very decent backup and depth , we need to understand that and right now we just deal with it. Cats have screwed us for far too long. Need to be bold this off season to even match then now.
,..bed time

 

[Wetdog]

Its called playing depth. We have a full squad I doubt he plays.

I wouldn't waste your time responding. Obviously troll.

 

[Igloo]

Now you all know I just love a good talk about whether MD thinks Jong is shit (spoiler alert!!!!!!!!!!! He does) but can we PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, NOT do this again?

Seriously guys. What the ****. Just stop.

 

[Mattdougie]

The glaring issue was how many targets we actually refused to not hit up and just bombed the ball in to the cats talls

If you go back and watch the pies and blues they kicked around the cats players and spread them until they found an option.

This run and gun style we play doesn't work against big teams so does Bev have a plan B or are we so one dimensional we can't change?

 

[immortalmike]

I want to be able to discuss on this thread whether or not tactically we were found out by our tendency to go backwards and sideways, and our nature of over-possessing the ball and being indirect to goal, and whether or not Geelong was able to exploit that with a taller defence and overlap run.

Instead I'm reading potshots at individual players who actually played well by individuals who have a clear bias and bickering and arguing. I'm done from this thread.

Discuss away. How is a parallel discussion effecting what you post?

 

[immortalmike]

The glaring issue was how many targets we actually refused to not hit up and just bombed the ball in to the cats talls

If you go back and watch the pies and blues they kicked around the cats players and spread them until they found an option.

This run and gun style we play doesn't work against big teams so does Bev have a plan B or are we so one dimensional we can't change?

I actually think the glaring issue was the general lack of intensity (our tackling was pathetic) and work ethic to get the ball on the outside. Our mids barely raised a jog in all but the third quarter.
I would've actually liked to see us try to run and gun, unfortunately we had none of the former and all our latter were asleep.

 

[the dog's kennel]

I Know that everyone is down tonight but we are still 9-4, so I haven't given up on 2016 yet.

The problem is this: there are a lot of easy draws coming up for every decent team but North. So in my view we will require 16 wins minimum for Top 4. This means we simply cannot afford to lose to Sydney next game and maintain a realistic prospect of success this year. No valiant failures. It's results time.

 

[hatescaptcha]

Every time we bomb the ball in long -

 

[Mattdougie]

I actually think the glaring issue was the general lack of intensity and work to get the ball on the outside. Our mids barely raised a jog in all but the third quarter.
I would've actually liked to see us try to run and gun, unfortunately we had none of the former and all our latter were asleep.

Mate I'm no genius but you cannot run and gun through the middle against Geelong.

No one has been able to do it for ten years. You have to go around them and spread them then hit up leading targets when they occur. And THEN you can hit them thru the middle but forstky you must spread them.

Bev was as poor as I've ver seen him tonite and we played right into their hands. We made Henderson look good for gods sake

 

[bobby2]

The thing that was most disappointing for me was that for a team that was much shorter, we weren't smarter.

Without JJ and co in the team, we lack a bit of pace. For example Geelong at times play 5 or 6 blokes over 190cm tall in their defence, but we can't exploit it whatsoever. I can't fault him because he played a good game, but like Jong seemed unwilling to use his pace at times as well.

Makes me wonder as soon as we had a few injuries, whether we're better off just matching teams for height rather than playing the same way but with worse players who can't exploit the fact that they're shorter but therefore theoretically more skilled and shorter. Given that blokes like Dickson and Honeychurch were ineffective against taller defenders, we may as well just played Boyd and gone taller in defence.

This was most evident in one of the goals in the first quarter. They went backwards and switched and Henderson was streaming through the middle of the ground, being chased by Honeyhcurch - and Honeychurch couldn't keep up. When a 176cm bloke is being outsprinted by a bloke 20cm taller and better in the air, what's the point of, structurally, picking that 176cm bloke in the first place? Like I'm not picking on Honeychurch specifically here saying he shouldn't play cause he did play a good game last week, but I'm saying tactically we should have attempted to find a way to exploit the fact that they have a tall defence better.

North did the same thing to us. Other teams have found a way to beat us - stick a third tall as a loose man behind the ball and use him as an overlap run. We possess the ball and go backwards and sideways more than any other team in the league, and a strength of that is that you can deliver the ball in quality ways or you can starve the other team of opportunities. Geelong and North in both our games have been the smartest teams in defending that and structure well with loose men behind the ball to minimise the impact of our nature of over-possessing the ball and being indirect with our avenues to goal.

The sort of good thing in a way is that with games against North and Geelong to come again in this season we get to see how Bev adjusts. Part of it is some very much direct-to-goal players in Johannisen, Stevens and Wood would come back into the team but I'm interested to see if Bev can find a way to adjust in the second half of the year to make us a more direct-to-goal, use-less-possession-to-get-the-ball-forward type team. We certainly need to be able to do that if we want to beat Geelong and North later in the year and in finals.

Good post. I think the way we were kicking to 1 against 3 or 4 was more of a problem than the height though. With the way they block for each other in the backline, I doubt Boyd would've been very effective in the air either. Usually the problem was that our players weren't even able to get to the ball drop, because there'd be two cats getting their bodies in the way, while a third took an uncontested mark. Also, there were patches in the game when our forward pressure was quite good, and they struggled to get it out, but we failed to capitalise on the turnover. Having players like Honeychurch and Dickson helped in these periods. That said, I'd be very happy to see Boyd back against the swans if he plays well tomorrow.

Normally we have extra numbers at the contest, so we are outnumbered in our forward line. But we work it forward through slick handball, so that those extra numbers can push forward alongside the ball in a wave of players. Similarly, when we are moving the ball forward by foot, we outnumber them in our backline so that we can gain control of the situation, switch and maintain possession effectively until we get an overlap player. This is why we don't get many easy out the back goals (I think some were questioning this earlier)- we're usually outnumbered in our forward line, so it is more effective to allow our mids to push forward together with the ball. This is also why our ball movement is rarely direct (apart from at centre clearances, when we can't outnumber at the contest). If we move it faster than we can run, then we're outnumbered forward.

Tonight though, we weren't able to pinball handball under their immense pressure, so we usually did one of three things:

1. Turn it over with an errant disposal
2. Bomb long to a 1 on 3, where a cats defender would mark
   
3. Kick sideways or backwards to a teammate- this then usually resulted in one of the above two things further down the track. We lacked the offensive potency to break through their zone, with Suckling, Williams, Stringer and Daniel being our only real attacking ball users.

Potential ways to fix this:

1. Get better at dealing with that kind of pressure. Last week, we were under similar pressure, but we generally showed a lot more composure, so we are capable. JJ and Wood coming back will help us break away from the pressure and gain an overlap player. If Jong can start using his speed as he gains more confidence (tonight must've been a pretty good confidence boost), he can help with this too.
2. Even up the numbers forward. This would require a major tactical change- possibly back towards the men of mayhem days. We'd lose our pinball handball, which would mean we'd have to take more hurried kicks under pressure. However, these hurried kicks may not be as bad if we have even numbers forward. After winning the ball in the middle, we could send a chaos ball forward if we can't spot someone up- not necessarily a high ball, maybe a fast (possibly bouncing along the ground) kick. If we can bring the intense forward pressure, then an unpredictable ground ball can be very difficult for a defence to deal with- especially since most of our forwards are elite ground players (Stringer + the band of resting mids). A ground ball would take the intercept markers who are absolutely destroying us atm out of the game. I would like to see us try a men of mayhem approach when the pinball handball isn't working.

 

[immortalmike]

Mate I'm no genius but you cannot run and gun through the middle against Geelong.

No one has been able to do it for ten years. You have to go around them and spread them then hit up leading targets when they occur. And THEN you can hit them thru the middle but forstky you must spread them.

Bev was as poor as I've ver seen him tonite and we played right into their hands. We made Henderson look good for gods sake

Don't agree, think you can if you work hard and actually run and tackle. Bev agrees with me judging by his presser so we should see who's right at Kardinia in a few weeks.

 

[Mattdougie]

Don't agree, think you can if you work hard and actually run and tackle. Bev agrees with me judging by his presser so we should see who's right at Kardinia in a few weeks.

Carlton and Collingwood beat them going around them

Both teams are average at best and the cats didn't play well on either occasion but it's a blueprint

Exactly as the cats did exactly what north did to us

Don't be surprised if all teams go in very big against us now

And my prediction Carlton will beat us when we play them

 

[the dog's kennel]

I think we can over-rate how bad that game was. The 1st quarter was reminiscent of our game against Hawthorn. The difference was when we worked our way back into the game we kicked like turds. If we'd nailed half those shots in the 2nd quarter, the whole vibe of the game would have changed and this game would have ended up like the Hawks game and people would be feeling a lot happier right now (we still would have lost probably but by 2 or 3 goals)

I am developing a serious concern about one thing though:

As a team we show a lot of tenacity and character. That's great. Increasingly we are hanging tough and prevailing under immense gameday pressure - except for when everyone is watching us.

Every time we find ourselves under the bright lights of attention we lose our sh!t. The final last year (except for the first 5 mins), Hawthorn, North and this game all have something in common. Huge amounts of fumbling and panicking, terrible goal kicking, poor disposal, and generally being overawed. Now that may well be a function of being young. Maybe it will take care of itself. Maybe it's a function of injuries (all games had a few). Or maybe our team are a bunch of chokers. Or maybe they weren't originally, but these mounting losses under the bright lights are lodging in their minds and they are BECOMING chokers. It's very difficult to know right now which option is the case. I just hope it's not psychological. Because this is becoming a pattern. The next game against Sydney will tell a tale, I feel.

 

[Wetdog]

Dickson has gone back to his 2014 ways

Short steps to contests, useless one and one, lazy and his dead eye is gone.

He literally Sh!t himself on at least 2 occasions tonight it was embarrassing

Dickson was poor tonight, but so were a lot of players.

He is a small forward who kicked 50 goals last year.

Moreover, he has been serviceable this year. He suffered an injury early in the season, but has come back in and been good. He hasn't set the world on fire yet which is reasonable in the absence of Crameri and the fact our forward entries have been woeful at times.

But forget about the context - just continue to can him with your reactionary statements based one or two incidents.

 

[immortalmike]

Carlton and Collingwood beat them going around them

Both teams are average at best and the cats didn't play well on either occasion but it's a blueprint

Exactly as the cats did exactly what north did to us

Don't be surprised if all teams go in very big against us now

And my prediction Carlton will beat us when we play them

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd have liked to have seen us play a high intensity version of our natural game, unfortunately that didn't happen. We've also smacked plenty of teams that went in big against us. I think we'll destroy North on the rebound too.

Might have to wait a year on the Carlton prediction. We don't play them again.

 

[Mattdougie]

Dickson was poor tonight, but so were a lot of players.

He is a small forward who kicked 50 goals last year.

Moreover, he has been serviceable this year. He suffered an injury early in the season, but has come back in and been good. He hasn't set the world on fire yet which is reasonable in the absence of Crameri and the fact our forward entries have been woeful at times.

But forget about the context - just continue to can him with your reactionary statements based one or two incidents.

No he hasn't mate

Dickson has been poor and is only playing on last year at the moment and if you think he has been serviceable your now just proving your just picking whatever I say and trying to use it against me.

Dickson is only good as a small forward in the 50, outside of it he is on of the worst footballers I've ever seen take and AFL ground. Inside the 50 he is dangerous and last year was dead eye. He has lost that now so let's see elit he can recover, I have my doubts but he has credit still

 

[Mattdougie]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd have liked to have seen us play a high intensity version of our natural game, unfortunately that didn't happen. We've also smacked plenty of teams that went in big against us. I think we'll destroy North on the rebound too.

Might have to wait a year on the Carlton prediction. We don't play them again.

The cats smacked us I don't think they can play any better than that but we did look flat from the first bounce so lets hope the break helps us

 

[yebiga]

Disappointing but a great reality check. The boys were flat and have had 3 big games in a row.

What we learnt:

We lack genuine pace and whilst JJ will help a bit it is not enough.

Fletcher is not up to AFL standard - is in danger of being delisted at the end of the year - al la Ace Cordy
He offers entirely nothing but a spoil - it's not enough - and Hawkins treated him with contempt tonight.

Morris and Adams are very very good and need a third solid tall to help them - fletcher will not be that man.

Honey after such a good game last week had to back it up - couldn't - and was shown up against better class.

Williams on the other hand looks a real find and against real class was not found wanting. Still has a few errors in his game but after 5 games who doesn't? A great pick-up.

I thought we could cover him but we really missed Dalhaus. He does things no one else can do and without him geelong were too strong out of the middle.

Jong made some giant leaps today against the best side in the competition. Tackled, got clearances, fumbled but recovered, wrapped up danger and Selwood a couple of times. He is now so close to exploding. The naysayers are going to be sharing huge humble pie.

Something stinks in our forward set-up. Against weaker teams we get away with it - against geelong and north it has been deplorable. Exactly how our forwards can be so consistently outnumbered makes no sense. One against 2,3 and 4 on Occassion. This needs a royal commission.

Also reckon there was a it too much respect given to geelong - way too many panic kicks - reckon we need a line in the sand game against these guys.

We were flat, there is still a long way to go in this season. The cavalry is on its way who knows what is still possible when it arrives.